In the immoortal words of David Graider, lead designer for Bioware:
"In general, we don't know what the game will contain until 6 months before release."

Shows how the gaming industry is flexible.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss shiplist, ships, races to polish them to their fullest.


So I'll start:
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1. Name the ship accordingly. If you're gonna do something, do it right.
Valdore (norrexan) stand out among other romulan ship classes.
The n00bs that know it as Valdore will recognize it visually, and if anything else will learn it's real name.
This doesn't affect gameplay os it's purely "asthetic"


2. Valdore doesn't fit in the designated role. We allready established that by size and power it fits the battlecruiser role. I reccomend you place it tehre and use the awensome "Firehawk" (class name would need to be renamed to sounds more romulan) insted

3. Prometheus as Fed uber?
If I recall correctly, Prometheus is smaller than a Sovereign, so it doesn't fit the big guns profile. Not to mention that the MVAM, it's biggest thing, won't be correctly modeled in-game.
So what to use instead? the Achilles is too small. The Galaxy-X too advanced (unless you plan to adda few more tech levels). the titan might fit well, given it's Galaxy/Sovereign design flow.

These two versions looks very promising:
http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/sc ... le/24126/2

http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/sc ... le/47215/6


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EDIT
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Balancing the races is rather difficult (done several balancing mods for various ST games - all recived great ratings b.t.w.)
You can't only go by pure numbers as for instance, the fact that Klingons and Romuland have most of their weaponry centered forward.
This makes them strong in the opening exchange, but weaker if you attack from the rear.
Also, size and ship manuverabilty play a critical role in torpedo evasion. Torp. cruiser present hte biggest threat to a romulan warbird for instance.


I agree that klingons have lower mantainance than most races - their ships are rigid, durable and spartan - thus easier to mantain.

I however do not agree that they should have the biggest fleets - that position should go to the Cardassians. Their ships are excrutiatingly weak (recall the episode there the Ent-D disabled one Galor in 5 seconds?)
Given their excellent production capabilities and low mantainance for such poor ship, they should have loads of them.

Be back later with more thoughts

No comments whatsoever? Not even a "Shut your piehole allready?"

Actually, I'd be on board for the Titan. The Prometheus seems more like a Defiant upgrade to me. Considering the ship is supposed to split into three parts for superior flanking, I can only assume that the bulk of the damage will be from beam weapons since torpedo launchers that numerous could be somewhat combersome for such a small and manevuerable ship. That's not exactly something I'd take to bombard planets with, and I'd very much expect an UBER to level

The Titan appears to be a true capital ship. It seems to be a direct upgrade over the Soverign, and the dual deflectors indicate that it has some Galaxy/Prometheus traits via saucer seperation (just a guess, I may be off). The fact that it's a bigger ship and only splits in half instead of into thirds tells me that it probably has a more adequate torpedo payload for it's capability. It'll still have it's MORE than fair share of beam weapons, so I'd definitely push for the Titan as the true UBER. Powerful weapons, strong shields, excellent command ability, long range. It might lack the maneveurability, but that's what I expect from the Capital of capital ships.

The only problem I have is the lack of canon direction for the Titan. There's all sorts of different designs for the ship, or even which class it is. See: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Titan and http://www.simonsays.com/content/featur ... re_id=4347. That last link is an art contest held to design the new Luna class for a series of books, of which the USS Titan is part of. One of the stipulations was it had to be smaller than the Galaxy and larger than the Intrepid. It also apparently took on more of an exploratory role, although I'm sure the ship could still blow things up quite adequately.

Well, while the Federation has the most canon designs, that doesn't mean we have to use them all or that we should use them all.

Especially considering that a uber should be something big, developed after the Sovereign.

And as far as ship balancing goes, we must not forget that romuland and Klingons are armed with BOTH disruptor beams AND pulse disruptors.

I would categorize weapons like this:

Beam - most accurate, long range (60% chance to hit with +10% per exp level)
pulse - less accurate, good damage (50% chance to hit + 8% per exp level)
torp - least accurate, big damage. (40% chance to hit + 8% per exp level)

Oh, I wasn't even remotely suggesting that the ships would have "just beam weapons OR torpedoes" or whathaveyou.

The way the Prometheus is designed, it's essentially three seperate ships that are capable of triangulated flanking attacks. The sections each should be highly manueverable in order to employ the flanking tactics. As such, installing a phaser strip or two would be much more effecient than giving each section 2 quantum torpedeo launchers. I'm also not saying it won't have torpedoes, I fully expect it to. But at best, I can see only one, POSSIBLY two sections with the capability of firing torpedoes. Considering it's relative size to the larger capital ships, I definitely see the Prometheus filling the role of heavy interceptor/escort instead of the end-all be-all of starships.

Thus, the Prometheus would probably be more comparable to a Defiant on steriods rather than the successor to the Soverign. I don't remember the phasers firing on the Voyager episode, but if pulse phasers are warrented, make it so.

However, it's no UBER. It has one role: blow crap up through maneuverability and tactics. Due to the nature of the ship (seperating into three parts with each part still rather highly manueverable), I do not expect this ship to be loaded up with quantum torpedoes. I expect it to have less torpedo capability than the Soverign, actually. Again, it's very Defiant-like.

Going back to the Titan, the links I posted are about as "official" as the Titan will ever get. And according to them, the Titan isn't even a class of starship of it's own, but simply the name of a new exploration class named Luna Class. It's smaller than the Galaxy but a tad larger than the Intrepid. Chances are the combat capability, if I had to estimate, would be on par with Galaxy, but with more effecient engines and power, and similiar to superior science/sensor capability.

Essentially, take a Soverign, cut it down to 1/2-3/4's of the size, downgrade the weapons to Galaxy spec, and install a massive sensor array that would likely contain a quantum launcher or two.

So, unless we feel like redesigning the Titan (after all, there is nothing canon on the Titan yet) to be an UBER, the Federation's current UBER is still the Soverign in canon.

You've gotta be joking, right? In the Voyager episode, the Prometheus ONLY used its' Phasers - and it fired them maybe twice per section, completely destroying a Romulan Warbird.

...

Dafedz has put the Prometheus in as the "Ubership" because it is the most modern of the ships that we know of in a canon timeline. I definitely agree with you that it would be better suited as either a Defiant upgrade or a more capable equivalent.

As for the Titan, i've seen the design that won the competition and I HATE it.

I certainly wouldn't have any qualms with someone designing a new model for the ship.

Eh, I'm not joking. I realize the Prometheus is crazy strong (I think I mentioned that a few times). But I can't see how you can realistically expect it to bombard planets without getting eatten by orbitals. A GREAT dogfighter? Absolutely. But it is no way a capital ship like the Soverign, which I'd kinda expect an UBER to be. The biggest, baddest ship on the block. Multi-role. Kinda like... well... an upgraded Soverign.

The winning entry for the Titan isn't bad. However, I like the Titan links that TrashMan posted much better. Those have a distinct UBER ship feel to them, and look to be clear upgrades over the Soverign. Whether we use a similiar ship design and name it "Titan class" is definitely something to debate. However, I would like to see a distinctly capital-like ship be the UBER ship. Capital ships do just about everything, and the word "UBER" tends to portray that meaning considering something UBER is ultimately the best at just about everything. Meanwhile, the Prometheus is really good at destroying other ships, but I can't see the ship realistically succeeding at anything else than ship to ship combat. To quote the BotF description on the Soverign II, "The Soverign is simply the final word in starship design." I expect the UBER to fit that description.

I'll comb through the ship database a bit more when I get more time to see if some tweaks are possible. I realize things are mostly decided, but since things are still pretty fluid for both games in terms of ship models and statistics, now would be an opportune time to make an adjustment or two.

As for the Romulan thing, I purposely avoided the subject since I no nothing about it. However, if the true name of the class is Norrexan or Valdore, I'd expect it to be used for accuracy. I would expect just about any Star Trek game to be as canon as possible, and this sounds like a really easy change to make it right with which ever name is more accurate as opposed to more popular/well known.

Again, canon whenever possible. Break canon ONLY for the sake of gameplay/programmability.

As I recall there were several ships fighting, Feds and Romulans. The Prometheus fired a few phaser shots, and then 2 torpedos which chased the Warbird (which was weakened from the fighting) and the other romulans away.

I never got the impresion of it being big or powerfull, but rather advanced.



That was just my point. why put something that doens't fit simply becosue it's a canon ship. I't better you come up with a new ship altogether..



Agreed. Besides, that was a Luna class warship.

When I proposed to use the Titan as a uber i meant the Titan class (from bcfiles.com)


And saying "this is decided, there's no point in even discussing it" is a bad approach to making a game.
I got that from the grat David himself, as game content has to be constantly re-evaluated and adjusted (especially in the early stages when making changes is still easy).

I think the problem that we're having is that we're not being explicit enough. I was taking "the Titan" as being Rikers ship, aka the USS Titan, as you said.

We're gonna have to define what we're saying more clearly from now on, so for future reference, "the Titan" = the Titan Class, NOT Riker's ship.

Now that we've got that sorted, feel free to come up with the Titan Class model, Trashman.

We will still need to come up with an appropriate role for the ship though; the Defiant has its own role - the Escort; designed for maneouverability, close-quarters combat, and escorting slow, poorly armed and poorly defended convoys of ships - whilst the Prometheus has its own role - the Tactical Cruiser; a ship designed to outflank and overwhelm individual ships.

By definition, these ships are specialised ships, serving only one purpose - and so will be absolutely useless in any other role.

If we're gonna have the Titan Class as the equivalent of a Sovereign upgrade, then it will obviously be the Explorer IV. If we feel that it is a vessel that is so uber and so outclasses the Sovereign that it requires another designation though, we're going to have to decide what that is, and it'll have to be in the spirit of the Federation - which means it won't be called a Battleship or Super Star Destroyer.

These two would serve very well as the titan clkass:
http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/sc ... le/24126/2

http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/sc ... le/47215/6


And the problem I have with Prometheus is that you cannot implement it's most interesting strongpoint - multi-vector assault mode.

Another point - ship designations change with time. Despite their peacefull attitude, the feds have been pushed into a kazilion conflict with heavy losses. They are shifting towards more warship traditional roles (look at the Akira nad Defiant). I wouldn't be surprised to see a federation battleship in the future (look at the Galaxy-X for example)

So TrashMan you thought the Warbird had been damaged as well. My friend and I debated it as well. He thought differently. Ultimately its combat gimick combined with warbirds all looking alike determined it.

I recall the ship was designated "Longrange Tactical Cruiser" which would have it opperating alone far from friendly space. It could strike down any other Cruiser or weaker vessel and run away from the Capital ships that outgunned it.
That's what I'd do with it. Or have it lead groups of cruisers as a sort of 'pocket battleship'.

Note: I thought Constellation when I first saw.

Ultimately it would be multivector attack gimick. Could it be implemented? Could we live with out the gimick but keep it's stats?

Well, here's a better question:

What is the definition of an UBER ship? I mean, at one time the Galaxy class was easily the UBER ship simply because it was the most powerful and most capable ship available. The Sovereign replaced that pretty quickly. So what role is the UBER supposed to play in the game? Is it a ship you can rely upon for almost anything? Or does it have a singular purpose which, in my mind, would not even fit the definition of the word "uber".

The Prometheus might be better suited than the Sovereign in dogfighting since it attempts to take the Sovereign's firepower and combine it with manuverability and unique flanking tactics. But it pales in comparison to the Sovereign in every other role.

I'm assuming that an UBER ship would be a multi-role ship that surpasses all other ships of the empire at a crazy cost. Essentially, the best Cruiser available.

If an UBER ship is simply the most capable ship-to-ship combatant, then the Prometheus is likely it. But that's not really UBER as much as "best dogfighter". Much like the strike cruiser is likely to be the best planetary assault ship as well as one of the best opening attacks in engagements and starbase/outpost/shipyard destroyer. But the Sovereign can do both of those roles very well, even in the same engagement. If an UBER ship needs support from additional ships to cover for it's weaknesses (like planetary bombardement), it's not all that UBER then.

I may be a little off-base with my questions, so I'll also ask this one: Is the UBER ship actually a member of a different ship-class? Currently, I was under the impression it would be a seperate class distiction, but if so, then the Fed's UBER should definitely be an Explorer-type vessel since that is, in essence, the spirit of the Federation.

My take on this is to simply give each side ships - and if they are cannon try to give them cannon roles and power.
The UBER designation isn't worth much.

For the Cardassians, a ships like the Hutet might be considered uber, as it's WAY more powerfull and expensive than anything lese the carides have.

For the Feds, a ship above the Sovereign wouldn't be that better in general, so there's no need to call it uber.

There is no need for a new ships class (you can designate it however you like, it's just a names - as long as the gmae doesn't treat it like a special ship)

It's kinda hard to explain what I mean

Jsut give each side ships. Don't worry about what class, of if each side has hte same number.

So what if the cards have a Hutet and the Feds don't have a counterpart? the Feds have a escort the carides don't and 3 Sovereigns will pawn a Hutet anyway.

Just make sure it Feels right..

B.t.w. - are you sure you want the tech tree to end with the move era? Why not push it a bit forward?

Balancing and decissions regarding roles/ships/races have been finalized.

Sry but this topic will only confuse people thinking these can be changed. If you want to make a mod with these ideas for botf when its out you can talk about a mod in the mod forum.

Topic locked.


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{update}

Following on from this conversation this has been moved and re-opened.

http://botfii.armadafleetcommand.com/in ... pic&t=1346

Thanks a bunch Skeeter

Quick note.

Please stick to what mike sets out that can be talked about and be specific as much as you can.

Skeeter, no need to be jumpy.

I'm not trying to force things my way nor change your oppinion - I'm jsut discussing things.

Personally, I belive that firmly fixing a aspect of the game that will be one of the last ones to be implemented so early is a bad design policy, but I'm not the one calling the shots.
Exactly which ships will be in and will they have 1 or 2 stats describing their agility - and similar stuff like that can be changed in any phase with "little" difficulty.

I ment no disrispect for the authority of the project leads or the ones who did the balancing. Just trying to iron out the last few bugs.

Well, if New Beginings doesn't want my advice, I'm glad that at least Supremacy wants to hear what I have to say

Seesh, you'd think discussion would be harmless..

What confuses me mostly is this illogical sentance:

"Balancing and decissions regarding roles/ships/races have been finalized." 8O

How can you finalize balancing when you didn't even test a single battle?
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Righto, now that I got that out of my system, let's continue.

According to everything I know, the Valdore is far smaller (around 600m long) than the D'Deridex and less powerfull.
Trought the move we seen it fire 2 pulse disruptors and both ships have been taken out rahter fast by the Schimitar.
The D'Deridex has a unnown number of disruptor banks, pulse disruptors (I'd guess 2) and plasma torps. We know it can damage the Galaxy in a single salvo.

EDIT:
WTF? What's this post doing here?

Well, from this point forward, this discussion is completely about Supremacy. In terms of Supremacy, as I understand it, "the database" is essentially a guideline at this point since programming what it contains is pretty distant. We can make changes to it, although rewritting it from scratch is probably not an option (and there's no reason for that anyways).

We seem to be at a creative impase on the "uber" Federation ship. Personally, I should probably do some additional research, particularly when it comes to the uber ships of the other races as well for comparison.

As such, I'm curious to see if we can agree as to which name to use for the Romulan Warhawk. Which name for the class is actually the accurate one? I get the feeling it is Norrexan, but better known as Valdore, right? Which ever it is, if we (and by we, I really mean you guys since I don't know - see below) can agree on which is the accurate name, then I don't see how we could use any other name even if it is more well known.

Also, we've yet to discuss point two:


I'm not much of a Romulan guy so I'm deferring on that topic. If I get time, I can do some research on it, but I presently do not know much other than that the Warbird D'reniex (spelling?) class appears around or just after Galaxy. My Romulan schooling was completely from TNG. I kinda ignored the Romulan specifications in Nemesis and stuck with "Gee, that's a really big ship."

True. Norrexan is the name of the class we all call 'Valdore'. The name Valdore was just the name of the Norrexan class ship that was featured in the movie Nemesis. But since everyone knows the name Valdore as it has been mentioned numerous times in the movie we chose to use that name in the game, rather than the official name which no-one knows. I am realy indifferent on which name to use. At this point in the development proces I figure there are quite some more important issues.

And btw, I trust you meant D'Deridex with your warbird?

Sure. I knew I spelt it wrong and I had no desire to look it up. I'm att work and have a few things to do.

For the moment, there's not much else to talk about. These things are all pretty far off so such a minor issue would probably be the easiest one to resolve.

The D'Deridex is the ship that is known as "the Warbird", although the official Federation designation is the "B-Type Warbird" - so presumably the "A-Type Warbird" was an older vessel, probably from around the Enterprise-C era - although at this time the Romulans were in the middle of a 70-year period of isolation so any reports of the A-type would be few and far between.

Personally, as far as I care, the Romulan ship from Nemesis was the RNS Valdore, a Norrexan class starship. Valdore IS the name of the individual ship, there's no disputing that. To my knowledge, the name Norrexan was only in the designs, written notes, etc. of the film, and was never mentioned on screen. I might be wrong though. Anyways, that's where the problems are coming from.

...

These are the Supremacy forums, so can anyone think of any (Reasonable) features that MStrobel might want to think about including in his game? I can guarantee it won't be included in the game if you don't tell us your ideas.

I think an "Azhdeen wins" button would be pretty mint. It'd be reasonably easy to program.

If (playername = "Azhdeen")
Then {
mssgbox("Azhdeen is the winner");
Endgame();
}

Look, I even supplied the bulk of the code for the button. Easy.

Actually, that makes me wonder if there will be any nongameplay-related easter eggs in the game. You know, little things that could occur that are just neat but have no impact on the outcome of the game. It's obviously not important, but definitely something that could be cool to do when things are coming together.

I would advise ppl post indivdual topics and keep multiple ideas seperate. As its easier for mike to browse through topics when there 100% ontopic rather than trailing through a long topic thats all over the place with multiple ideas and chat.

This is just a suggestion to make it easier on mike btw.

I appreciate your intentions, Skeeter, but I'm perfectly capable of moderating my own forum .

As for the notion of "uber" ships, I agree with TrashMan's comments in the original thread. I don't think it should be a requirement that every empire have an uber ship. Personally, I tend to avoid them anyway, as I can't cost-justify their enormous consturction costs. As powerful as they are, they can usually be outgunned and certainly outmaneuvered by two or three lesser ships that could be built in roughly the same amount of time with the same resources. Bearing that in mind, they would be a good to balance out the fleets of races whose ships are generally less powerful than the other empires'. For instance, the Federation's ships are genearlly of higher quality than the Cardassians', so giving the Cardassians the Hutet (or some other uber ship) would help even things out. Even if the Federation doesn't have an uber ship, their mainstream ships will usually hold out longer in battle, so it all evens out.

There is really little point in continuing the debate about the name of the Valdore/Norexian(sp?). To be honest, I'd rather not even have that ship in the game. I tend to think it was only included because (a) it's powerful as hell, and (b) it saves us the trouble of designing and modeling an original ship. It gives the Romulans the most powerful uber ship when they already have the advantage of powerful weapons and cloaking. It's also a Reman design, so I'm not sure it even makes sense.

The only races that I think should definitely have uber ships are the Cardassians (the Hutet?) and the Dominion (the battleship from the DS9 episode Valiant). These are crucual because the Cardassians have weaker ships, and the Dominion fleet is largely composed of Jem'Hadar attack ships (the small "bug" ship), so they should have a sufficiently large vessel as well. The Klingons have the Negh'var, the Federation has the Sovereign, and the Romulans should have something more powerful than the D'Deridex. I'm not sure about the Prometheus, as its multi-vector assault mode would require several special considerations in the code.

And Azhdeen, you can rest assured that there *will* be Easter Eggs in the game .

Mike i think your confusing the Valdore with the Scimitar (reman/romulan uber ship).

To be honest the Valdore/Norexian (sp) wasnt particulary powerful as in the film it was just cannon fodder and was basically pathetic in the fight vs the shimitar.

I think you're right, Skeeter. Were the Valdores the attack birds assisting the Enterprise in the fight against the Reman ship? If that's the case, then I think the Valdore is a nice ship, and I'd like to have it in the game. It's the Shimitar(sp?) that I didn't like.

Correction: I guess the class name is the 'Norrexan', not the 'Valdore'. I like 'Norrexan' better anyway. It sounds more Romulan .

Yep.

[edit]

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Valdore_type

Memory-Alpha, a user-edited Wiki, classifies the Valdore as it's own class. I question the accuracy of it, considering that it is a wiki. However, the real reason why I posted it is because this is the ship we are discussing, as opposed to the Scimitar which is of Reman design which can be seen here.

Reading the entire article and the discussion page makes NO mention of calling the class of vessel anything else other than Valdore. But since that is what was used in the movie, that is what Memory-Alpha is required to use. There is another discussion page, however, that brings up the issue here when talking about the Valdore ship itself.

I added a comment to the Memory-Alpha page asking for clearification and sources, but at this point I'm more than willing to disregard the article and continue researching elsewhere.

From the Memory Alpha article. I say we call it the Norexan class and wrap this issue up. The name of the ship is trivial, and there are more important issues to discuss at the moment. We can always change the name later, and it would only take a few seconds.