The idea of separating the crew from the ships is interesting, though I'm afraid it won't be happening in this game. I'm having to track too much information as it is, and features like this would drastically increase the size of the game state. The waiting time for multiplayer turn processing would be a nightmare.

Anyway, something to think about for BotF3: Greater Supremacy .

Yeah, I will most likely impose a limit of Tiny or Small galaxies for multiplayer games. I may let you select a larger galaxy and just pop up a warning that larger galaxies should only be played on high-speed LANs, and that I don't want to hear anyone bitch about how slow it is .

Although I am not a game designer , I do understand the huge amount of work and lines of code that go into it. I actually used to design websites, ( A long long time ago) but from what you described 10 of my sites Might just fit into that bit code wise.

But on a different note, I would like to know. When you make your ship movements do you work just on the X Y planes or do you also use the Z plane as well?

( sorry I used to be a CNC programer/operator before I was injured )

Map movements are in 2 dimensions <x,y>. I would imagine 3D combat movements would take advantage of all 3 dimensions, so <x,y,z>.

Thanks.

I'm going to sut up now and go back to teaching myself excel.

I'd still have to insist on an avoid order as I fail to see how it could make sense to not impliment one. The avoid order will pit a ship against another ship that is attempting to engage/intercept it. It's kinda like fleeing from battle, but pre-emptive instead of reactionary. Example:

You have a science vessel. Most science vessels are rather quick and agile. They don't have powerful defenses, but they do have powerful sensors with great range. A warbird is huge and lumbering. They have powerful engines but poor manuverability. They make up for it with an impressive offense.

But the catch is being able to catch up to it. And I'm not just talking movement-wise.

Agility needs to stand for something. If it doesn't, than it is an entirely useless statistic and as such, there would be little point in building defiants, promethiues's, heavy destroyers, and other agile, yet expensive ships. If Galaxies can intercept ships just as well as Defiants while bringing more to the table with better sensors, movement, and defenses... then you've single-handedly made several types of ships obsolete before you've even researched them.

Do I expect science vessels to be capable of avoiding a huge warbird? Absolutely, assuming it's the latest and greatest model. Interception pits a one ship's ability at "cornering" another ship, which in turn is attempting to avoid the aggressor as much as possible. The science vessel knows it is space dust against a warbird, so why would it let the bird close enough to attack it? It wouldn't. It'd attempt to keep as much space between it and the bird as possible, even when in the same sector. Perhaps the science vessel uses a planet for cover, or flies through an asteroid field, or simply maneuvers past the bird staying out of engagement range.

Avoidance is all over canon trek. The Defiant essentially epitomizes avoidance. Sure it's got cool hull armor and decent shields for a ship it's size, but it's single greatest strength is avoiding enemies when it chooses to. And when it does engage, it employs it's agility in avoiding weapons fired in it's direction.

However, that's not to say that the warbird can't engage the science vessel (or even the defiant). That's why I proposed a system that incorporates luck. Each ship would have a certain capability of avoiding combat entirely, engaging enemies that are set to avoid, and intercepting enemies outright. I believe all three require equations to be done effectively. The variables in the equation would be dependant on the ship's other statistics, plus a class modifier that depends on the typical role of each vessel's starship class. IE: science vessels and escorts would likely have some crazy avoidance ratings while escorts and fast-attacks (destroyers, heavy destroyers, prometheus, etc) would have some crazy interception ratings.

End-game cruisers such as Soverigns and Warbirds would likely have decent interception ratings based on their speed and sensor statistics, although their agility (or lack thereof) would add very little.

Using your freighter example, they would likely have a low-end avoidance rating, if freighters exist at all in BotF2. They are slow, not very agile, and have poor sensors; those three stats make up the core of the avoidance equation. However, I would expect the freighter class modifier to add some avoidance ability as I would highly expect the other variables to be very close to 0. Even considering the class modifier, I would expect freighters to have some of the worst avoidance ability in the game, with colony ships and "planetary assault ships" (if they are in the game, too lazy to check the DB, but I'm using the BotF1 reference to help flesh out the example. you know... the ships designed for "assaults" that you never built) as a close second and third.

I fully believe that a freighter should be capable of escaping the cluthes of a ship once in a while. I'd attribute it to luck. That's like a VW Bug escaping from persueing police officers in their V8 cruisers. Is it likely to happen? Not even close. But could it? Absolutely. And that's what the avoid/engage/intercept equations are designed to protray and is why I suggested them in the format I did.

Needless to say, it is still a WAY better idea to escort your freighters, colony ships, and troop transports than it is to send them solo. But I still want the possibility of those ships escaping harm as that possibility always exists.

Food for thought: If you did away with the "avoid" order, then a Klingon troop transport would essentially engage every single troop transport of opposing races that it comes across. I question how "realistic" that really is considering the typical statistics of troop transports. That's not even mentioning what happens with the non-combats of other races. If a Fed colony ship comes acorss a Romulan colony ship, is there a battle? What kind of battle is it? A staring contest? Rock-paper-scissors? Thumb war?

I don't see how you can remove the avoid order. All you can do is make ships more or less likely to avoid/engage/intercept other ships. Yay equations!

BTW: I'd be onboard with seperating ship experience into different categories. Defiant and Prometheus class vessels, for example, would have little use for sensor bonuses. Meanwhile science vessels would likely excel in attaining sensor-related experience. Considering that those ships usually avoid combat, I would not expect them to have significant combat experience. However, being long-range science ships, I would expect them to become adept at damage control as all sorts of hazards, natural or not, exist in the fringes of known space. But the lack of combat experience would do little to increase their avoid/engage/intercept modifiers that more combat-oriented ships would gain. And your heavy cruisers would pretty much remain as well-balanced ships.

Don't worry, I'm not getting rid of the Avoid order. I've been giving it some thought, and here are the factors that I'm considering including in the calcuations. I emphasize considering, because this is far from final. Some of these will weigh heavier than others. I've hastily ordered them in roughly descending order of relevance.

Avoiding Vessel
Stealth/Cloak Rating
Speed
(*)Ship Class
Maneuverability
Crew Experiene
Random Component

Intercepting Vessel
Scan Strength
Speed
Maneuverability
Crew Experiene
Random Component

(*) Non-combatant ships may receive a small avoidance bonus, unless being intercepted by a ruthless race. Troop Transports would only receive such a bonus if being intercepted by an honorable race that they are not at war with.

Really, it makes a lot more sense to leave it in, as if someone doesn't like it they can simply set all avoidance values to zero, and intercept ratings to max.

I'll probably go somewhere in between this and what Mike is proposing. Good work.

I should add that I still hope to allow modders to script their own fleet orders. This would require some programming background and knowledge of either C# or Python, depending on which route I go.

From a simple mind:

I wonder if this is perhaps going a bit to far tech wise. It is one thing to be able to do all kinds of interesting things, yet another to develop and implement.

I tossed this out here to see what kinds of fun regarding movements should be talked about or have new ideas spring up.

I'm all for keeping it real.. As in really fun to play.

Fleet movements are turns left, right, (if possable) up, down. speed, warp or impulse.

What happened to fun and simple to play? I Apologize but all this high tech this and that get to be a bit overwhelming. For me. to many things to do just to make a simple movement of my ship or fleet and I would lose interest real quick... Not that it cannot have its complex side, as we all know it does just from viewing a tiny fraction of code. but please!

Mstrobel, I can say I am honored to have you build this, with all the coding and other things that go into it. What I have seen and played with I enjoy very much.

Azh, Dude, No offence man, but Tone It Down!! This is a game for goodness sake not a plan for taking over the Universe! I like a lot of things you mention that would help make the games better and more enjoyable to play, but too often it reads like your taking this way too serious!

I love a great discussion but this is getting a bit weird for my taste. And I know it is NOT my place to say anything as I contribute just about Zip! But when I do , I try to keep it short and sweet. And Lively.

Again I Apologize to all! I'm not mad, just concerened.

Well i have embarrassed myself..

thanks for reading this.

Hawk.

Hawk, i see it looks complicated all this chat but i think its all going to be hidden features as in they work in the background and within the normal commands like from botf 1.

I think there talking about how to program the engage/avoid/raid/cloak commands as you see in botf 1 and just trying to work out what they should do for this game.

So it wont be as complicated as you think when its all done.

Cloaking and Scan Strength should be taken inot account when both avoiding adn intercepting.

From the database Masterplan. Just food for thought.

1.14 / Ship Orders
In BOTF you had some orders you could use on your vessels, on the map (not in battles). This is the new list and much better compared to BOTF:

Engage (stand ready)
Avoid (avoid)
Cloak (only for Romulan and Klingon vessels - or captured vessels that have this ability)
Raid (credits, installations, etc…)
Redeploy (group with other ships)
Intercept (Intercept enemy shipping in your territory)
[b]Pursue (Select pursue, then select an enemy ship. Your ship will follow theirs until it catches up. When you catch up the ships fight). This stops the AI from hiding its ship or ships in an adjacent sector to avoid a fight. Obviously, a faster ship will get away, weaker ships would head home to force the enemy to break off pursuit.
Research To research certain anomalies, and other things. To receive resources/research points/etc… (see Research and scanning)
Replenish Automatically head to the nearest allied facility, where you can replenish your vessels with Torpedoes. (see below)
Patrol For Scouts only - You can pre-select a patrol route, particularly useful along enemy borders.
Explore For Science Ships and Explorers only - plot a course of exploration for your Science Ship (see below)
This means automated wandering and scanning (research) of anything it comes across
Relief Effort Assign the ship to respond to medical emergencies and natural disasters. In this mode the ship will activate is Population Health bonus (this is what Hospital Ships are for - Ship Stats for more)
Distress Signal (see 1.18 below) as in run out of 'fuel' and need a lift.

Agreed. The orders are simple but we've got to make sure the system behind them is fair and relevant.

I'm really looking forward to playing a game with these features

I put up the list, as there was ambiguity. Azhdeen put forth some ideas on the first page of the thread that on the second page had to be clarified. Thus be cautious with terminology.


I think the current debate as I see it is about what happens when two (or more) ships end their move in the same sector.

Intercept: Ship sit in one sector and moves in reaction to a hostile ship/fleet moving in range to its sector. Honestly, other than the percentage listed, it was a mystery as to how it worked. You had to be in your own sector but it would jump into any sector.
Priorities and how it works needs to be discussed.

Persue: Useful for hunting enemy ships. I would like this to not be territory dependant like Intercept. (But could modify any algorithm for it) It follows until the target is out of range, disappears (ie cloak), other orders given or catches up.

It’s these two that are causing most of the debate.
Avoid: Simply meant; to try to avoid an encounter. It only worked if the other side was also doing Avoid, or they couldn’t see through your cloak. Else it didn’t work.

Engage: was just the opposite of Avoid. Would interrupt what ever the other force was up to.

Accurately, these caused Encounters or Contacts to occur. What Azhdeen is proposing is that when ships end in the same sector that the above ‘automatic encounter’ doesn’t always occur (at least with Engage).

This has some promise, but I worry about some odd things occurring. As an example: the early stage of the game, you have few warships and some young colonies. It’s possible for a lone transport to in and take it from you. Thus you park a destroyer over it. You don’t set Intercept because you want it to stay put. It would then guard the system.

But now with any randomness, it’s no guarantee. Hypothetically the algorithm could make it unlikely, but it’s not impossible (unless the algorithm made it so).

As for decisions, mstrobel what do you want to do?

(It may be viable to first put in the algorithm so that it mimics BotF 1 behaviour and then just change it later, and make it MODable.)

I suggest you break down intercept into:
INTERCEPT - works in your own territory. Won't follow ships that go out of your borders.

HUNT - worsk everywere. Will hunt any enemy ship inside sensor range





As far as sneaking by and capturing planets, why not all planet have a basic sensor array that increases chances of detection/interception/engagement in that system?
The more powerfull the sensor the greater the area that is scanned.
The closer you are to the planet with the sensor hte greater the bonuses.