Of course, i'm gonna have to agree with myself here...

The game simply won't be able to show every aspect of the race that you play as - no game can do that. (Unless they bring out some sort of big brother thing )

And like I said (And Scotty pointed out) you have simply skipped over the other points I made.

Each race is different. They all have their own personality traits, ideas and abilities. Their buildings (And the bonuses you gain from them) will reflect this - as they did in BOTF. Most of the buildings are actually canon in one way or another, you know!

Ok, like you say, everything in Trek is portrayed from the point of view of the Federation - what do you expect? It was written by humans afterall!

Until they make a series about a different race, we won't really know much about this 'other side' to those races.

As you said, we did see glimpses of the civilian side of the Cardassians - but we won't be playing as civilians, will we? We will be playing the President, Praetor, Chancellor, or whatever of that race, controlling the Military arm of that Empire, and expanding as we see fit. Individual concerns are non-existant in the game, we simply serve our Empire. (Or vice-versa)

The 'face' of any race that we have seen in Trek is the only side we can really base the game on, since this game is being made as canon as possible - within playabilities' sake, of course. 99% of the time, we only see the Military side of a race anyway.

There will always be people that are different to the typical view of a race - the examples you used work here, and there are also the Vulcans that were members of the Marquis! (It was in a DS9 or Voyager episode)

Anyway, if you have a problem with the way BOTF was portrayed, then make a constructive post - don't knock down other people's posts simply because you don't agree with them. Point out their mistakes and give reasons why you think they are wrong - there is always the possibility that you don't know everything, afterall!

There is also the possibility that you could just leave - it's up to you.

The game is gonna be moddable anyway, and like I said, it was just my idea of a possible way to show the races. That's it. An idea. Nothing more, nothing less. These are forums, where people discuss their ideas. It's not my fault if you don't seem to get that.

I'm sorry mate, but all of us will be modding the game in our own way anyway - so yeah, perhaps I will be making my own 'silly little scenario', but then again so will everyone else.

At least I can see other people's points of view. It's a pity that you obviously can't.

Your points could be good in theory but the game is going to be tested before release. Given the experience all the designers have with the original game and the wide preference for other races amongst the testers even if the game is originally Federation biased the final version could be corrected to make it more even.

The immense scale of this game should make any advantages show up like a sore thumb upon testing so hopefully all this can be corrected in time for the final release.

I fully agree with scotty so far. I'm a bit upset about you being in doubts of the abilities of balancing the game properly. I tell you I'd like to be a tester as well, but since I didn't get an answer by gavin for my pms for quite a time I don't think you will be soon either. (Otherwise: Let me know how much you had to pay ) Anyway: I see you points, but I'd wish you had a bit more trust in our game designers abilities.

Gavin is really busy at the moment, he isn't replying to many of the PM's he's being sent at the moment. (Although this could be a good thing, since it means he's busy with the game)

Gavin is gonna adjust the game constantly until he is 100% happy with it - he certainly isn't gonna even let the testers get their mits on it until he's sure there aren't any easily avoidable bugs or sore thumbs in it.

As I keep saying, each race has it's own advantages. This is how I currently believe they will be, although don't quote me on this, since I haven't seen the game either:

The Federation has a slight edge in research, but this won't be as prononuced as it was in BOTF. Their advantage means they will field new designs and structures a couple of turns ahead of the other races, but those races will be able to catch up. Their other advantage in diplomacy doesn't mean they are going to be able to get every race to join them either. Warlike races will give them a real hard time during diplomacy, just like it was in BOTF, whilst the Klingons will have an easy time of it.Peace loving races will have a tendancy for liking the Federation, but they won't turn their backs on the other Empires either. Each race that knows of you will keep track of how you keep/make/break treaties, and this will influence how they react to you. the game learns what type of a person you are, and it will adjust the races to match. Remember, the game will be far more 'intelligent' than BOTF ever was. The Federation's intelligence forces will be relatively weak in espionage and sabotage, and will prefer to monitor internal security. The other race's abilities in the fields of sabotage and espionage will gaive them a hard time, however.

The Klingons will have a major bonus when it comes to battles. They will have ships that are more heavily armed, and will likely be more maneouverable than those of the other Empires. They may also gain experience much more quickly during battles. Warlike races will have an affinity for them, and they will have good internal security. They may also have a bonus in weapons research (like in BOTF) although I am unsure of this.

The Romulan security forces will have good espionage, and to a slightly lesser extent, sabotage skills. they will also have good internal security. They will have high research capability when it comes to energy, but their diplomacy capability will be relatively low, except with more treacherous races. (Yridians etc.) They will prefer to subvert races, rather than gain their trust through big gestures like the Federation.

The Cardassians will have a bonus when it comes to production. Their efficiency means they will always be able to build ships more quickly than most other races, but their lack of resources means they will have a preference for smaller ships, but will still build big where they can afford it. Cardassian ships are built to intimidate, afterall. The intelligence forces will have a slight affinity for sabotage, bt will also be good internally.

The Dominion will have the highest advantage in shipbuilding. They will build some ships as much as twice as fast as those of equal class in the other Empires. They are also efficient, and generally willing to trade, where possible. Changelings make good agents of espionage and sabotage, and there is never a shortage of recruits, thanks to the engineered Jem'Hadar. They may be slightly lacking in non-weapon/energy/biotech areas of research, however.

Like I said, don't quote me on this, but this is how I believe they are currently going to be ingame. I hope this clears things up a bit for you Mark.

Quark, you misunderstood me (My fault, I guess though)

What I meant was that they are slightly lacking in techs OTHER than weapons, energy, and biotech, so in BOTF 2, that means social tech, 'government tech', (If this actually exists) and any other techs that I have forgotten about would be the only lacking areas that the Dominion would have.

I hope that clears it up for you.

...

Trashman, I agree with you on the accuracies - I really like the way that Starfleet Command did the acuracies of the weapons. Phasers were something like 99.999999999999% accurate, and the remaining point whatever was simply shown as no damage taken (Extreme range etc.)

Photons had a 100% accuracy rating at point blank range (Up to 10,000km) but you suffered feedback damage at such close ranges.

- 10,001-20,000km had an 83% accuracy rating
- 30,001-40,000km was 67%
- 50,000-80,000km was 50%
- 90,000-120,000km was 33%
- 130,000-300,000km was 17%.

Of course, the torpedoes had a proximity setting to increase the accuracy of the weapon, allowing you to fire at ranges of up to 550,000km with a 33% accuracy rating. This halved the amount of damage taken by the enemy however, and stopped you from firing the weapon at an enemy closer than 100,000km (To give the proximity detonator time to arm itself, else it would have blown up in your face) 8O

Of course, there were nine different weapons types, and each had their own accuracy ratings, which could also be affected by electronic warfare and natural interference (Nebulae) On top of that, most of the weapon have individual settings (Like the Photons can have proximity settings) so that affects it further.

I think a similar system could be used, although I don't know how affectively the distances could be calculated.I wouldn't expect it to be so indepth either, but depending on implementation, I think it could work quite well.

The most important advantage of the dominion was their _size_. From all we know they "owned" a much bigger space in comparison to the "alpha-alliance". The only reasons why they could have been overcome were the wormhole-beings (just think of the 7000-ship fleet disappearing) and the individuals of the series. hence these are facts we can't rebuild in a botf-alike game, we will have to think about good ideas balancing the dominion to be stoppable at all

The Dominion is supposedly something like 10,000 years old, which accounts for their massive ownership of the Gamma Quadrant.

Since they will be a selectable race, and you'll do the guiding (For playabilities' sake) you won't be starting 10,000 years ahead of the other powers.

I suppose that's one of their advantages gone...

The Dominion will have the highest shipbuilding capability however, being able to build ships far faster than the other races will ever hope to manage.

I suppose they could be balanced out by having increased costs, but that doesn't really make sense, since the Jem'Hadar are paid in Ketracel white, not Latinum.

I'm sure Gavin will find a way.

Here is how I see it:

SHIELDING:
1. Federation
2. Romulans
3. Klingons
4. Cardassians

HULL:
1. Cardassians
2. Klingons
3. Romulans
4. Federation


WEAPONS:
Klingons have lot's of weapons, cardasians have too (but they are weaker)
others are average

In my opinion the roms shouldn't have to strong shields, since this together with cloak means a really big advantage in battles, which is too big for my thoughts of balance. (And yes, I like to play as rom, this is one reason I don't want to have a game that is too easy )

Remember the cloak won't be quite as tactically devastating in BoTF II! So in order to be competitive at all the Romulan ships will need to be able to endure battles longer than two turns!

From what I could tell, and assume based on what we see, Romulans are pretty close to the Federation in most areas, except weapon accuracy and maneuverability.

So to suggest a revision for the ratings:

Shields:
1. Federation
2. Dominion
3. Romulan
4. Klingons
5. Cardassians

Hull strength:
1. Cardassians
2. Klingons*
3. Dominion*
4. Romulans*
5. Federation*

*all pretty close....

Sensors:
1. Dominion
2. Federation*
3. Romulans*
4. Cardassians
5. Klingons

*canonically, Romulan and Federation sensors are pretty much equal. Due to the emphasis on science, I'd give a VERY SLIGHT edge to the Federation.

Beam Weapons (total effectiveness - both power and accuracy)
1. Dominon
2. Cardassians
3. Federation
4. Klingons
5. Romulans

Torpedo Weapons (again, total effectivenss)
1. Romulans*
2. Federation*
3. Klingons*
4. Cardassians+
5. Dominon+

* Federation Quantums would be slightly better than Romulan Plasma torpedoes, but mounted on fewer ships. In general, the top three are pretty equal.
+ Cardassians and Dominion are close together, but lag behind somewhat.

Research
1. Federation
2. Romulans
3. Dominion
4. Cardassians*
5. Klingons*

*close together but lagging behind

Training Capabilities:
1. Dominion+
2. Federation+
3. Klingons*
4. Romulans*
5. Cardassians

+ Dominion and Federation close, *Klingons and Romulans close, but somewhat behind, Cardassians slightly behind them.
Industrial Capability:
1. Dominon
2. Federation
3. Klingons
4. Cardassians*
5. Romulans*

*close together.

What do you think? Did I screw anything up?

They all seem good to me, although i think that for the training, maybe that last four should be around the same, with klingons in front, and keep dominion in first

i think its a pretty good stab, its canon but quite fair also.

i gave each table a first to 5th place scoring (5 for coming in first, 1 for coming in 5th)

and the total is as follows

dominion=31
feds=28
roms-21
cardies=19
klingons=19

ive given the list a slight modification to make these scores come in a bit closer

Shields:
1. Federation
2. Dominion
3. Klingons
4. Romulans
5. Cardassians

Hull strength:
1. Cardassians
2. Klingons
3. Romulans
4. Federation
5. Dominion

Sensors:
1. Cardassians
2. Federation
3. Romulans
4. Dominion
5. Klingons

Beam Weapons (total effectiveness - both power and accuracy)
1. Dominon
2. Cardassians
3. Federation
4. Romulans
5. Klingons

Torpedo Weapons (again, total effectivenss)
1. Romulans*
2. Klingons
3. Federation
4. Cardassians+
5. Dominon+

Research
1. Federation
2. Romulans
3. Dominion
4. Cardassians*
5. Klingons*

Training Capabilities:
1. Dominion+
2. Klingons
3. Federation
4. Romulans*
5. Cardassians

Industrial Capability:
1. Dominon
2. Klingons
3. Cardassians
4. Federation
5. Romulans

ok the shields i put the klingons ahead of the romulans because ive seen more klingon ships last longer in fights, in ds9 the die is cast , those warbiards shields really look ponderous in that episode (a feat only surpassed by the cardassians alongside) still i have seen plenty of klingons blow up like they didnt have shields too... so i took the example of the way of the warrior when the klingons attacked the station, the more modern ships faired pretty well against the station, so there you are, my argument as shaky as it is

in hull strength i put the dominion bottom of the bunch because i read a convincing story on dirl.org about dominion ships having weaker hulls due to their modular designs (a bit like the way mcdonalds is built) i consider these 5-6 part ships to have greater potential for hull stress than the others...

Mostly i gave the cardassians the best sensors because they needed the points, however in the original game and in DS9 the cardassians had fixed installation sensors with a far greater range than the federation had. I reckon the feds have a more useful sensor system, and coupled with the research boost will get the most scientifically from them, but i also reckon the cardies have the best listening posts and im assuming their ships (at least those used to gather data, are similarly equipped.

Beams i kept the same because its a good list, though i changed the bottom 2 to even out the points a little

torps ive just done a reversal of the beams list, notice the feds ships firepower gives them a jack of all trades feel, not primarily for war they are nontheless adaquetly equipped for most contingencies

research i whole heartedly agree with

for training i put the klingons above the feds because they had a similar advantage in BOTF 1 and also klingon warriors train for war the second they punch their way out their mothers stomachs, so although starfleet are still good, klingons are slightly better

For industrial capacity ive made a list that you would imagine if the dominion were in it. I reckon the cardassians and the klingons have a greater potential for industry (what with their ruthless and hard working natures) the dominion still own the list because they can genetically engineer workers to work themselves into the grave. I cant see too many romulans and feds rolling up their sleeves like this.

So all that changing gives a points total of
Feds=27
dom=26
Cardies=23
Romulans=22
Klingons=22

That for me is a bit fairer. Also in many fields the federation/dominion are only a tiny bit ahead so perhaps not warranting a full point.

im not settled on the figures so i`ll probably edit them, hope this helps Jarok

You forgot pulse weapons - klingons, romulans (and federation) use it.

The way i see it Klingons and Cardassians have the best weapons overall 8not torpedos, but beams and pulse)

Romulan weapons, aren't great at all, but they have cloack and good hull & shielding. Especially the warbird (it's huge)

As far as training goes (battle efficiency) Klingos should rule.. They are the best warriors out there..better than the dominion.


However, this is all a generalisation..this has to be handeled on a ship to ship basis..

The best re-balance pack Iever made was for BC.. and I posted hte ship stats in the Balancing Ship thread.

Be it as it may, this thread is about ship capabilities. So I'm asking - what about boarding and disabling?

There will be no boarding or disabling of ships, at least as far as past conversations go (I'm positive on boarding and almost completely positive on disabling, unless things have changed)

I was assuming that pulse weapons would be treated in stats like beam weapons. In their appearance in combat, however, I really hope they are modelled as pulses!

I want to see the pulse phasers on the Defiant, and the disruptor cannons on a B'rel, etc.

Of course, having the weapons the right color would be a good place to start...

Jarok, Pulse weapons ARE in!

Gavin has made it so that every 'normal' weapon (Ie, no special gases, bombs, mines etc. that have only been in one episode!) will be in the game.

Defiants will be equipped with Pulse Phaser canons, and B'rels will have Pulse Disruptor Bolts.

They will look as they did in the various series (Ie. the right colour ) and they will most definitely be weapons in their own right, not simply beams that are a slightly different colour.

If it is a pulse, it will look like a Pulse. If it is a Beam, it will look like a Beam. Simple as that.

Remember that Gavin has made the games' battle engine from scratch. it won't be limited in the way that BOTF was. Weapons, tactics, control...it will all be as it should have been.

I agree that the Klingons and Cardassians should have better Beams/Pulses than the Federation, but we know that the Dominion is far more advanced than any of them in this field.

When they first met the Dominion, the Dominion Beams went straight through Federation shields like a knife through warm butter. this shows they had better Beam tech.

However, to my knowledge, the Dominion do not have torpedoes, which is another reason for them to have the best Beam/Pulse tech. (So it balances out )

The Romulans should have the weakest Beams/Pulses, but I think they should still have the most powerful Torpedoes. The downside to all that power is that they are less accurate than the weapons of the Federation and Cardassians. (The Romulans have a better scan range, but not necessarily accuracy, since the Federation would have a greater range of sensors, so wouldn't be able to equip as many long-range sensors)

This is how I would put the races in order:

Pulse weapons
1. Dominion
2. Klingons
3. Cardassians
4. Federation
5. Romulans

Based on Marks' numbers, this means the races are gonna be slightly less balanced, however:

Marks numbers plus Pulse weapons

Dominion=31
Federation=29
Klingons=26
Cardassians=26
Romulans=23

On top of that, we haven't factored in things like intelligence etc.

That is going to make things even more varied.

Based on Jarok's numbers, this is what you get if you add in Pulse weapons:

Jaroks' number plus Pulse weapons

Dominion=36
Federation=30
Klingons=23
Romulans=22
Cardassians=22

In both cases, the Dominion have the upper hand, with the Federation closely behind. The other powers start to trail a by quite a bit.

So what about intelligence? Again, these numbers are based on how I think they should be, so if people dissagree, then say so:

1. Romulans
2. Cardassians
3. Dominion
4. Klingons
5. Federation

Marks numbers with Intel and Pulse

Dominion=34
Federation=30
Cardassians=30
Klingons=28
Romulans=28


Jaroks numbers with Intel and Pulse

Dominion=39
Federation=31
Romulans=27
Cardassians=26
Klingons=25


You guys can decide which system to use, or even to make your own.

Just in terms of playability, I'd say Mark's is the better balance. Much as accuracy is fun, it has to be a good game.

yeah, if you forsake all those ds9 episodes where the defiant was used like a science vessel then i totally agree that only certain ships can pull off research and intelligence (if your all happy with the notion) and others cant

I'd have to agree with you there. From what i've heard, the Romulans are relatively low in mineral wealth, but on the flip side they have a lot of Dilithium.

I don't think the lack of resources would be anywhere near as bad as that of the Cardassians, but it shows up intresting design philosophies - the Cardasians go for small and many, the Romulans go for big and few. Only battle will tell which is best!

Of course, this is based on fan boy stuff, so people can dissagree with me as they see fit...

Oh man, it's been a while. First things first, I came up with my torpedo launcher count from a combination of concept art (non-canon) and shots of the model from the movie (questionably canon). Here are the pictures I used.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v334/Majo ... =1&multi=8

Concerning accuracy and range, as to why ships fight and can miss at a kilometer, long story short, the answere is ECM. Ships should have a too hit value based on ECM level, size, speed, and manuverability. The counter is of course ECCM. Range really shouldn't play too much of a role except in combination with speed and manuvering. If a ship's engines are dead and it's flying balisticaly, its position over time is going to be very easy to determine and a miss shouldn't be possible unless the enemy's ECM is still working to throw off sensors.

I have to actualy disagree with the Romulans have low mineral wealth, it really doesn't fit with their design phylosophy of building huge ships. If they were resource poor they would probably go for smaller more numerous ships in order to maximise their resources.

Apparently the Romulans do use dilithium, the mines the Remans were mining were dilithium mines in Nemesis.

I'm sorry if any of this has been concluded already but I have restart somewhere. On to another post!

Just coz they don't need it specifically in their ships, it doesn't mean they don't have any use for it. Don't they use Trilithium in their Torpedoes?

So wouldn't they need Dilthium to make Trilithium?

Or what about trading? Perhaps the Romulans trade with species/allies that we don't know about, on the opposite side of their space, for instance?