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Fleet movements
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Author:  Winterhawk [ 15 Nov 2006, 07:58 ]
Post subject:  Fleet movements
Good Idea there Mstrobel.

So what about fleet movements? I see things like border patrols, Interior patrols, escorts for diplomatic meetings, Blockades. And one of my favorites from old botf, Winning over a minor from another major power.

With the last, I actually lost the EDO system to the Ferengi, simply because I was giving them so many credits so often, they they became insulted! It actually did happen.

Many of you might not remember or know about this but in Org Trek, The Federation was in a sence in a battle with the klingons for a planet, altough they did not attack each other directly. They instead matched weapons tech and allowed the pop of that planet to sort it out themselves, plus they used as much diplomatic relations as could be given.

Of course there is always raiding parties, spying on outposts, the occasional loss of engines.

This is all I can come up with quickly without giving it deep thought.

OH not to mention smuggling out refugees, ect. complex yes but highly doable..
Author:  mstrobel [ 16 Nov 2006, 21:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Winterhawk7 wrote:
Good Idea there Mstrobel.

So what about fleet movements? I see things like border patrols, Interior patrols, escorts for diplomatic meetings, Blockades. And one of my favorites from old botf, Winning over a minor from another major power.

With the last, I actually lost the EDO system to the Ferengi, simply because I was giving them so many credits so often, they they became insulted! It actually did happen.

Many of you might not remember or know about this but in Org Trek, The Federation was in a sence in a battle with the klingons for a planet, altough they did not attack each other directly. They instead matched weapons tech and allowed the pop of that planet to sort it out themselves, plus they used as much diplomatic relations as could be given.

Of course there is always raiding parties, spying on outposts, the occasional loss of engines.

This is all I can come up with quickly without giving it deep thought.

OH not to mention smuggling out refugees, ect. complex yes but highly doable..
Well, off the top of my head, patrols and blockades sound like viable first-class options for fleet orders. By "first-class", I mean they would be worthy of implementation for the initial game release. Some of the others might be worth adding in later, but wouldn't add enough to the game to worry about adding them any time soon. I think blockading could work similarly to raiding, except that you wouldn't be stealing credits, you would be preventing resources from reaching a system. This could cause stalls in production. I'm actually in the process of rewriting the production code now, so I think I'll put that on hold whilst I ponder the idea of blockades.
Author:  SonOfMogh [ 16 Nov 2006, 22:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Fleet Order Suggestions;

Avoid/ Engage should mean slightly different things. A ship assigned to Engage status will fight or hail any ship that it meets. A ship set to Avoid should turn tail and warp in the direction of your home system if it spots an enemy vessel.

*Move- From one point to another
*Move- Between waypoints
*Patrol Border- Head for nearest border and circle your empire
*Partrol- Between Waypoints
*Intercept Course- Intercept a certain enemy vessel, pursuing until you catch it, or it disappears from sensors
*Intercept- Chase any enemy ship that enters sensor range, breaking off pursuit once enemy ship has reached XX sectors from your border
*Escort- Escorting ship will attach itself to another vessel, it will defend it if attacked. You can escort an alien vessel if you wish (aiding diplomacy is some situations)
*Scan Object- to aid research
*Training
*Planetary Survey- This should be the only way to discover specifics like max population and planet type. Some multi role Cruisers can do this, however a surveyor is quicker and more accurate
*Refuel- Head to nearest Starbase, Outpost or depot.
*Raid/ Blockade
*Cloak & Decloak
*Enter Wormhole
Author:  Azhdeen [ 16 Nov 2006, 22:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
I'd have to disagree on the avoid order. For example, a science vessel set to avoid should be able to avoid combat if it encounters one or two other ships without warping anywhere. Also, I sometimes order science vessels into combat with other ships set to engage due to their sensor capabilities, thus allowing me to target inexperienced ships. If the ship automatically warps away, that would mean I would have to first set it to engage, and then back to avoid after combat which is quite annoying.

Avoid should simply mean that the taskforce takes all possible steps to avoid combat in the sector it is in. Program-wise, each ship could have an avoidance rating (according to what Mike posted, each ship already has an intercept ability raiting). The avoidance rating would determine how easy it is for a ship to avoid entering combat.

Borrowing some of the stats that Mike posted, let's say there is an enemy ship that has 25 Intercept rating (noted in the ship stats by <InterceptAbility>) and your science vessel is set to avoid and has an avoidance rating of 25. This is what I see happening:

Your ship (avoiding with 25) and the enemy ship (engaging with 25) finish their movements in the same sector. The computer sees this and will now determine if combat should occur. The computer will now generate a random number of some sort, let's say between 1 and 20, for your ship. It will then add the avoidance rating to the result and that is your ship's chance of avoiding combat this turn. The same thing will occur for the enemy ship, except it's intercept rating will be added to the random number instead.

Essentially, your ship will have a 50% chance to avoid entering combat with the enemy ship. A higher avoidance rating means it's more likely to avoid combat. Also, if you have a ship with 55 avoidance rating and you encounter a ship with only 25 intercept rating, you will never be intercepted by that ship if it is set to engage.

Also, this can get tied into the intercept fleet order. I imagine the intercept fleet order would multiply the intercept rating of the ship by a certain modifier. It can also be included in the ship stats file as <InterceptModifier> or something similiar. Some ships, naturally, are better suited intercepting ships than others. Take the Defiant for example. However, I do not expect these modifiers to vary greatly between ships. I'd imagine most would have a modifier of 2 while some of the speedier ships could have 3, possibly 4 tops. Essentially, when a ship is ordered to intercept, it will then multiply the intercept result by the modifier.

Going back to my example with the 55 avoid and 25 intercept ship, let's say that the engaging enemy ship has a modifier of 2. Thus, the computer would roll a number between 1 and 20, add the 25 rating, and then multiply the result by 2. Thus, the ship could have anywhere from 26*2 to 45*2. Note that it could still be possible for the intercepting ship to wind up with a result of 52 and 54, thus the avoiding ship would still avoid combat situations.

The avoidance rating could be a great addition to ship stats, I think. The intercept modifier would be nice as well, but not as important as the avoidance rating. What the modifier would allow is greater variance in intercepting abilities between ships. Perhaps capital ships are very good in finding ships within the sector they currently inhabit so they would have high intercept ratings, but are poorly designed to persue and intercept ships across sectors. Thus, they'd have modifiers somewhere between 1 and 2. On the flip side, perhaps escorts and destroyers are not as effecient in cornering ships set to avoid in sectors they are idle in, but are extremely effective in search and destroy missions. Thus, they'd have low to midrange intercept ability, but very high intercept modifiers, perhaps in the 3-5 range.

Questions? Comments? Feelings?
Author:  mstrobel [ 16 Nov 2006, 22:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Well, the Intercept Ability stat is already planned, though the Avoid Ability stat is an idea worth considering.

I should comment on the capabilities of fleet orders. Any order has ability to require the user to select a target. In those cases, the code for that type of order will include the functionality necessary to generate a list of possible targets. For example, SonOfMogh suggested an Intercept target that would track enemy ships. This is pretty much what I had in mind for a "Pursue" order, except that the user would select the fleet to pursue (given a choice of all enemy fleets within your space). The fleet given the "Pursue" order would then 'chase' the target fleet out of your space, and then revert to the previous order once the target fleet has been engaged or has escaped.

Note that an order target does not have to be an enemy fleet. It can be any in-game object, such as a stranded ship to tow or an anomaly to scan.

SonOfMogh, thanks for your suggestions. I'm a bit busy finishing an assignment for school right now, but I promise to look over them and give you some feedback the first chance I get. If you want to go back and revise them based on the information I just stated about order targets, be my guest.

Cheers,
Mike
Author:  Azhdeen [ 16 Nov 2006, 23:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Also, in talking to Mike (distracting him from his homework), he reminded me that crew experience should also be factor.

Just to re-hash what I said (and to be more clear):

A ship set to avoid would have the following:
random(20) + AvoidanceAbility + CrewExpModifier

A ship set to engage would have the following:
random(20) + InterceptAbility + CrewExpModifier

A ship set to intercept would have the following:
(random(20) + InterceptAbility) * InterceptModifier + CrewExpModifier

The modifier would likely be representitive of the ship's speed and agility, although it doesn't have to be. You could mod a shuttlecraft to be the galaxy's best interceptor. Also, the CrewExpModifier could be factored in before or after the InterceptModifier multiplies the intercept result. I have it displayed after the multiplication occurs because a ship set to intercept with an experienced crew would probably gain just as much as a ship set to avoid with an equally experienced crew. Since crew experience would be equal the bonus should be equal, so the only other factors to consider would be the abilities of their respective ships (avoid vs intercept ability * intercept modifier).

Also, as a disclaimer, the numbers I'm using are just placeholders and are in no way what I think they should be. But I like these ideas as I think they can give better variety to ships, and it will be very easy to tune each ship's intercepting capabilities.
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 06:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
OK, having finished my homework (no thanks to Azhdeen ;)) I've had a chance to go over SonOfMogh's fleet order proposals. Below are the suggestions that I liked (or were already planned), and a revised description based on how they will most likely be implemented.

Patrol Border -> The fleet will circumnavigate your borders and intercept any hostile fleets within range.

Patrol -> This order is only available after you set a course. If the route is not closed (e.g. the final waypoint is not in the starting sector), then the shortest path from the last sector back to the starting sector will be appended to the route. The fleet will then follow the closed route repeatedly until ordered otherwise. Any enemy fleets within range will be intercepted.

Intercept -> Same as in BotF

Pursue -> Select a hostile fleet to pursue. That fleet will then be followed until it is engaged or it leaves your territory.

Escort -> Select a fleet to escort. That fleet will be followed and protected until ordered otherwise.

Scan Object -> Select an object to scan and generate research points. The number of points generated each turn depends on the combined Science Ability of the fleet, and the total number of RPs possible depends on the type of object being scanned.

Repair -> If an owned or affiliated starbase/spacedock/shipyard exists in the current sector, and if the selected fleet is damaged, then this order will cause any damaged vessels in the selected fleet to dock for repairs as repair docks become available. If more than one dock is available (i.e. one at a spacedock and one at a shipyard), then the dock with the greatest repair capacity will be chosen.

Raid -> Same as in BotF.

Blockade -> Block delivery of resources to a system from the controlling empire's global stockpiles. This may cause local production projects to stall. The effectiveness of this order depends on the number and type of ships participating in the blockade.

(De-)cloak -> duh...

Enter Wormhole -> Cross your fingers...
Author:  SonOfMogh [ 17 Nov 2006, 07:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Excellent, looks really really good. Can you escort ships of other races? (like the Defiant escorting Cardassian freighters). Also, how does refuelling work in Supremacy?


I located this thread from a couple of years ago. Nothing new and a few things aren't too relevant, but it's here for info purposes. I'd forgotten that I came up with the pursue idea!!

http://www.botfii.armadafleetcommand.co ... 86&start=0


EDIT- I just re read the pursue order. It says that the pursuit would take place until the enemy ship clears your territory. We really need anoder enabling you to follow the enemy ship until caught. This would be ideal if you spotted a scout on your border with max speed 2, and your vessel has speed 3. If enemy space or reinforcements are 20 squares away then the race is on!!!
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 08:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
I suppose the Pursue order could persist until the target fleet is caught...

The issue of fuel is something I've been putting off dealing with for too long. I don't really like any of the proposed systems. I'm open to suggestions.
Author:  Winterhawk [ 17 Nov 2006, 08:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Okay all of this is excellent. Now what about single and fleet attack movenents? To me the whole concept of your fleet and my fleet just diving in or turning in big circles makes no sence. Even in Canon, ships do various twists and turns but left right up and down. Heck even a zig zag pattern seems a bit more realistic then to just rush in head on where then you (both fleets) have to do turns to "re engage"

I also ponder why not be able to do single ship movements: example set 3 ships out of 12 to pull a quick turn to the right while the main fleet holds it's ground and takes on the opposing fleet or single ships.

This is just to give the battle sequence a bit more of a thrill.
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 08:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Well, everything discussed above refers to regular fleet orders, not combat maneuvers. At the moment, combat maneuversare a ways off, and certainly worthy of their own thread. Anyway, what you see in combat will depend largely on the 3D math background of whoever I have helping me, as math was never my strongest area.
Author:  Winterhawk [ 17 Nov 2006, 08:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Would regular fleet orders also say set mining ships (if you have any) to orbit a planet and do it's job?

And what about getting to a spaceport or refit station. Or is this something that once you got into orbit of where these things were that the computer kinda takes over and just does the work for us.
Author:  Azhdeen [ 17 Nov 2006, 14:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
One of the things I didn't like about intercept in BotF1 was the fact that my ships would not persue targets outside of my territory - particularly ships that were still in neutral shapce (and in enemy space when I was busy ordering my Sovereigns to conduct "diplomatic discussions" for the acquiring of new territory).

Perhaps the intercept order should have three modes. The first and lowest would intercept enemies within your borders. The second would intercept enemies in any sector that is allied/neutral (neutral being sectors of space that is not owned by an empire, plus if you can travel through minor race territory if you have a friendly treaty). And the last is an unrestricted intercept order which will hunt and persue enemy ships throughout the galaxy as long as they remain within range. We could name them creatively too... but I lack that ability atm (WHERE'S MY COFFEE!?!?)

Essentially, I'd imagine when you click on the intercept order, a set of three orders would branch out and you'd select which intercept setting you want. That way, if you start a Tech1 game, you could have your aging destroyers intercept within territory, your heavy destroyers out in neutral space, and your defiants zooming around and blasting starbases, outposts, science stations, combat ships, noncombat ships, etc to space dust.

Otherwise, I pretty much like the orders as Mike described them (plus I really like the avoid/intercept discussion further up.) I would be very satisified if those got implimented.

Question: if you can blockade the shipment of resources to a planet, will raid steal them? Or will it only give you credits? Also, I'm assuming blockade would attempt to stop all shipments while raid will attempt to steal some shipments and bank them for your empire, but allow the rest of the shipments to get through to the planet. Yes? No?
Author:  Winterhawk [ 17 Nov 2006, 17:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Azhdeen wrote:

Question: if you can blockade the shipment of resources to a planet, will raid steal them? Or will it only give you credits? Also, I'm assuming blockade would attempt to stop all shipments while raid will attempt to steal some shipments and bank them for your empire, but allow the rest of the shipments to get through to the planet. Yes? No?


Now thats an interesting idea. I know there were many times in Botf1 where I would have been much happier to have had materials, such as steel, fuels, electronics ect. I mean the credits were nice but they would not help to curb the heavy use of the basics. lol
Author:  TrashMan [ 17 Nov 2006, 17:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
COMMENTS
- shouldn't the avoid ability be something that's auto-calced out of other ship stats?
Like, speed, agility, sensor range, ship class(size) determine the avoidance rating.
The same could be done for intercept (smaller ship classes get a bonus to intercept and avoid)


- I like the esort order, since it mneans I can finally make coordinated attaks with my ally :D
However, the problem is the following - what happens if the fleet you're escorting is disbanded/devided?
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 17:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
I've been thinking about using a preset equation to calculate avoid ability. I don't think it really needs a separate stat. All we really need to consider is the other fleet's speed, distance, and stealth/cloak level. Maybe a small bonus to stealth/cloak for a highly experienced crew.
Author:  Azhdeen [ 17 Nov 2006, 18:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Cloak would have it's own bonus. You can't be seen. It's essentially guarenteed avoidance as long as you can't be detected. I don't see why you would want to factor it in to the avoidance equation. If you can be detected, then the cloak isn't doing much for you.

As for using a stat or determining an equation, even if a stat is used, it would simply be a reflection of the ship's statistics anyways. It's slightly redundant, but you could vary it if you wish. For example, colony ships might not exactly be the most graceful ships in the world, but they will probably have a large avoidance ability simply because they have no combat purpose whatsoever.

A high avoidance would be countrary to their speed, agility, sensor range, and class size (they're about mid-size I'd imagine), but that's all colony ships do while flying around - avoid stuff. Thus, they'd have a higher rating than their typical ship would otherwise indicate. Also, using a seperate stat would allow programmers and modders alike to tune that specific aspect of ships without disrupting the other major statistics. The same can be said about intercept ability.

Personally, I'd prefer a stat that is independant of other ship statistics. For the most part though, fast, agile, small ships will likely have a very high avoidance ability and very high intercept ability. When balancing the ships, those stats can be used as a guideline to deduce what the statistics should be. However, some judgement can be used to vary it, particularly if a ship should probably be better at avoid/intercept than it's other stats would typically make it (like colony ships).
Author:  Winterhawk [ 17 Nov 2006, 18:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
You bring up a good point to think on Mstrobel, Crew experiance. New ensigns Or better yet a whole new crew that has been deployed will not or should not preform as well as a seasoned crew. I do not just mean for battle engagements. I would think they would be a bit "More Careful" then say a crew that has been out in space for a while. Perhaps that could or should be factored in to an overall ships speed. I know that all ships will have there top speeds, but would you not think that a green crew would not travel quite as fast past a neutron star as would a more experienced crew and ship?

I know I'm reaching here but in times of non war, for training a new fleet of distroyers for example could be set doing escorts for freighters or any type of slower ship for a certain number of turns at a lower warp factor. then when those turns are complete the warp factor of that fleet will rise up to another stage of warp ability.

Should they be placed into service during a war, then about the same applies for overall speed. They would gain experience for both battles and warp if they are engaged in a battle and win (small bonus points) should they retreat they lose nothing a they are set as at there lowest point anyways. Newer ships that are combined with more experienced ones could get a (slight bonus advantage) due to guidence of experienced ship captains training the newest ones ..

Hope this kinda makes sence.
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 18:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Azhdeen wrote:
Cloak would have it's own bonus. You can't be seen. It's essentially guarenteed avoidance as long as you can't be detected. I don't see why you would want to factor it in to the avoidance equation. If you can be detected, then the cloak isn't doing much for you.

As for using a stat or determining an equation, even if a stat is used, it would simply be a reflection of the ship's statistics anyways. It's slightly redundant, but you could vary it if you wish. For example, colony ships might not exactly be the most graceful ships in the world, but they will probably have a large avoidance ability simply because they have no combat purpose whatsoever.

A high avoidance would be countrary to their speed, agility, sensor range, and class size (they're about mid-size I'd imagine), but that's all colony ships do while flying around - avoid stuff. Thus, they'd have a higher rating than their typical ship would otherwise indicate. Also, using a seperate stat would allow programmers and modders alike to tune that specific aspect of ships without disrupting the other major statistics. The same can be said about intercept ability.

Personally, I'd prefer a stat that is independant of other ship statistics. For the most part though, fast, agile, small ships will likely have a very high avoidance ability and very high intercept ability. When balancing the ships, those stats can be used as a guideline to deduce what the statistics should be. However, some judgement can be used to vary it, particularly if a ship should probably be better at avoid/intercept than it's other stats would typically make it (like colony ships).
I would think Colony ships would have a low avoidance rating because they're gigantic and slow. Ship type (to approximate size) would have to be included in calculations as well.
Author:  Azhdeen [ 17 Nov 2006, 18:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Err, the captain of a ship is still a captain. He has experience and thus, gives the orders. I see the experience statistic as "length of time the crew has been together, thus are more effecient at what they do." I also see the stat as a reflection on how long the crew has gotten to know the ship and all it's quirks and abilities.

As such, I don't see how experience would have anything to do with travelling x km's away from a neutron star or some other thing. But I do see it making an impact in combat, and while avoiding/intercepting other vessels.
Author:  Azhdeen [ 17 Nov 2006, 18:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
I'm not sure why colony ships would have to have a low avoidance rating. If any ship is going to avoid, it'll be colony ships. They serve absolutely 0 combat purpose. A low avoidance rating will ensure that they always get pulled into combat, effectively making the colony ship entirely defenseless from just about everything.

Avoidance is their defense, it's really the only thing they have. I'm not saying it should be sky-high either, but I don't think it should low (and based on statistics, it'll probably wind up being the lowest of all ships). Otherwise, the only other ships worth using the avoid order on will be science ships.

By the way, tweaking an equation for balance is more difficult than tweaking a statistic. Plus, the equation would likely be programmatic and thus difficult for modders to adjust without vast changes to ship statistics. I just find a seperate statistic easier to manage and impliment. And again, the statistic will likely be just a reflection of all the traits that were mentioned (speed, agility, etc), but variable if desired. *shrugs* I find a straight-up equation limiting.
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 18:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Tweaking an equation means tweaking one source, not dozens of different values (one for each ship). I already include tables with the modifiers used in several other equations in the game, so it could easily be made modable.

An equation also sets a standard. The result could only be changed by modifying the ship's relevant stats. This prevents people from skewing a ship's avoidance rating unfairly.
Author:  Winterhawk [ 17 Nov 2006, 18:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Azhdeen wrote:
I'm not sure why colony ships would have to have a low avoidance rating. If any ship is going to avoid, it'll be colony ships. They serve absolutely 0 combat purpose. A low avoidance rating will ensure that they always get pulled into combat, effectively making the colony ship entirely defenseless from just about everything.

Avoidance is their defense, it's really the only thing they have. Otherwise, the only other ships worth using the avoid order on will be science ships.


I have to agree with you there Azh. Colonies, frieghters ect Large ships with low warp ability would be always at a high avoid status.

You say a Captain is still a Captain. What you did not say is that even though they hold that rank, they lack "real time (game wise) experience" outside of the academy. In the few games I have played, Any new ship/fleet whatever does not preform as well as seasoned ones. It does make a big difference! In old botf to gain experience you could do two things. Sit at the dock and have your ship/fleet in a training mode for X amount of turns or they could zip out, and if they got lucky and were in a battle, they gained experience that way. Personally I would rather have my new ship/fleet gain experiance by moving around even if it is slower at first rather then just setting at a spacedock. Also I did not say it would hae to be for a long length of time the get there "legs under them". During non war time they would gain agility ect. while there waring ability would not raise due to unless they were set to train for battle tacktics say by flying between systems and targeting drones or something to that effect. Anything would be better then just setting them/it at a spacedock for ? # of turns... Plus it would make the game a bit more realistic...

And I'm all for realism if it is something that can be applied without complications.

Plus I'm also thinking in terms of playing the game right now not just in the building stages. I see this being a tad more exciting. :D
Author:  Azhdeen [ 17 Nov 2006, 19:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
I have never ever ever seen someone graduate from a military academy, fictional or otherwise, and immediately been thrust one of the highest ranks available.

The Navy CERTAINLY will never mint a captain fresh from the naval academy. Everyone starts on the bottom (lowest rank possible) and gets promoted up through experience.

The same goes for Starfleet. Everyone graduates at the rank of ensign. You serve aboard a ship, outpost, starbase, or any combination. You excel at your job, you gain rank and experience. Eventually, you'll make Lt. Cmdr or a higher rank. A new ship is built, and you get asked to command it. You have experience due to your rank, and it's the only reason why you are being put in charge of that ship.

You might not have much experience being a captain, but you will have experience and commanding people and experience in starship opperations. It's safe to assume that you'll be smart enough to keep well-away from that blackhole over yonder. However, crew experience as a whole WILL be a factor in the game. But I don't see how it can serve any impact other than intercept/avoid ability and combat effectiveness/damage mitigation. Perhaps I'm just not understanding what you're trying to say, though.


As for skewing avoidance unfairly, if I want to make an untouchable ship that never attacks, fine. I can mod things however I want (although I personally do not like mods). Chances are that I'm going to also set it to move 1000 square per turn anyways. I dunno, if there's going to be an avoidance/intercept modifier based off of classtype, that's essentially what the AvoidAbility variable would be doing anyways. It's essentially the same thing, except I've simplified the entire thing into a single variable for each ship.

Let's say a ship's avoidance is equal to speed + agility + classtype + sensor range + crew experience.

The classtype is really the only variable I'm concerned with because each class will have an avoidance/intercept modifier. I guess this condences what I want into the individual shipclass files as opposed to each ship file itself, assuming a shipclass file exists? But my suggestion was to essentially dump the entire issue into a single variable for each ship. But if the classtype can modified, than I'm all for that too.
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 20:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Well, I see your point. I haven't ruled the idea out entirely, but I'm not convinced that there is very much that a ship can do to avoid being intercepted (other than cloak or run away at a faster speed). If a faster ship with strong sensors wants to fight you, you're probably not going to get out of it. All the more reason to make use of the "Escort" order ;).
Author:  Azhdeen [ 17 Nov 2006, 22:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Just to be clear... when I say "intercepted" I'm really refering to the possibility of being intercepted by ships that are actually just set to engage.

Essentially, I still want ships that are simply chilling in a sector to be able to "intercept" ships within that sector that are set to avoid. However, I don't want avoid to be absolutely pointless. Hurrah balance! But, I'd also like to see some really awesome ships be able to avoid battles with older ships. For example, I fully expect the latest and greatest colony and science ships to be able to avoid an NX class starship, even if the NX is ordered to intercept. That only makes sense.

The intercept order, as I stated earlier in the thread, would likely multiply or otherwise modify the interception result, thus ensuring a much more likely interception against equal and lesser ships technology/experience wise.

I think utilizing an equation and a ShipClass modifier would probably be the way to go. ShipClassIntercept and ShipClassAvoid would allow for the addition modifiers to Avoid, Engage, and Intercept.

ShipClassInterceptMod would allow for the multiplicative modifier that the Intercept (and probably persue?) order would multiply the equation result by.

That way, we can do quick balances to the equation, and then fine-tune things based on starship class.

Plus, another bone to chew on will be having 4 ships set to avoid and 6 enemy ships set to engage enter the system. Now what?
Author:  mstrobel [ 17 Nov 2006, 22:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
Well, that's different. I was planning on having a simple set of rules for determining whether or not an fleet ordered to 'Avoid' gets engaged by a different fleet that has orders to 'Engage':

1) No fleets (combatant or otherwise) ordered to 'Avoid' will be engaged if they are in friendly space. However, if those fleets remain in the same sector as an enemy fleet for more than one turn, they will engage if the enemy fleet has been so ordered.

2) Fleets composed entirely of Non-Combatant ships will not be engaged if ordered to 'Avoid' and located in neutral or friendly space; same rules apply for occupying the same sector as an enemy fleet for more than 1 turn.
Author:  SonOfMogh [ 17 Nov 2006, 22:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
mstrobel wrote:

The issue of fuel is something I've been putting off dealing with for too long. I don't really like any of the proposed systems. I'm open to suggestions.



The simpler the better as far as I'm concerned! It should be simple in the way range was simple. The reason I prefer fuel to range is the following reasons;

*Starships will routinely have to stop off at starbases, even when travelling within your own borders- not only does this raise the profile of starbases somewhat, it also keeps your fleet a bit busier. I always felt your fleet in BoTF was sat waiting for the next battle. At least with refuelling, manual refits and repairs, and scientific work, they'll seem a little busier.

*Ships will be able to enter a wormhole, then go explore the other side! In reality if starfleet located a stable wormhole, they'd build an outpost on THEIR side, not hundreds of lightyears away on the other side!


I don't really think it's necessary to have fuel be an empire resource, I just don't see the Federation having a fuel shortage! Instead;

:arrow: Each ship should have a little number under the fuel section, this number depletes by X amount for each sector the vessel travels through at warp speed.

:arrow: The number should go from white to yellow to red as the level drops.

:arrow: The number is immediately brought up to 100% whenever the ship enters a sector with a shipyard, starbase, or occupied system with a certain structure.

:arrow: A friendly or allied race will allow you to refuel at it's installations.

:arrow: A ship which runs our of fuel will no longer be able to travel at warp speed. Another ship must enter the same sector as the immobile ship, then tractor it to a starbase etc. Whilst tractoring, ships can only move at speed 1.

:arrow: When you sign a non agression treaty with another race, any ship in their space will immediately turn around and head to your home system. As range does not apply, the ship will not magically teleport, and the other empire will be programmed so that they will not expect their space to be clear of your ships for say, 15 turns.

:arrow: The fuel reserve of ships will increase through the technology levels, thus gradually increasing the distance you can travel. Whilst there are exceptions, the average fuel level of the various types of ships will be as follows-

Highest- Explorers, Scouts
Mid- Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, some Destroyers, some Surveyors
Low- some Surveyors, some Destroyers, Colony Ships, Transports

:arrow: In terms of the above, the efficiency and technology of the ship in question will be a factor, in addition to the size of the fule tank. For example, a Scout is bound to have less fuel on board than a Heavy Cruiser, but will burn it much more slowly.

:arrow: Ship role will be a factor, the Deiant for example will have a very very low fuel reserve, as well as low warp speed, to offset it's good combat performance. The much more expensive Prometheus has both combat ability and good fuel range, yet is more expensive.


As stated above, the simpler the better. I know after watching TNG every week as a kid, and most episodes end with "Set course for Starbase xxx", I'll get a kick out of having to visit Starbases to refuel.
Author:  Azhdeen [ 17 Nov 2006, 23:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
mstrobel wrote:
Well, that's different. I was planning on having a simple set of rules for determining whether or not an fleet ordered to 'Avoid' gets engaged by a different fleet that has orders to 'Engage':

1) No fleets (combatant or otherwise) ordered to 'Avoid' will be engaged if they are in friendly space. However, if those fleets remain in the same sector as an enemy fleet for more than one turn, they will engage if the enemy fleet has been so ordered.

2) Fleets composed entirely of Non-Combatant ships will not be engaged if ordered to 'Avoid' and located in neutral or friendly space; same rules apply for occupying the same sector as an enemy fleet for more than 1 turn.


I'm going to think about this for a while. With the persue order available, this might be ok, as long as ships are capable of persueing and/or intercepting outside of your normal territory. Otherwise, this makes colony ships pretty much invulnerable. When I see colony ships near/over uninhabited systems, I send my fastest/closest ships to go wail on it.

I dunno... like I said... I want to reflect on this more.

As for fuel, I like the idea of ships out of fuel moving at 1 square every 2 turns. If you strand a ship in a spot where the only way to get to it is to strand additional ships... well... that kinda blows. Thus, I'd like to have the option of a ship still being able to move, but at an increadibly slow speed (impulse power). Thus, you can send a ship out that won't get stranded to meet it and tow it back to base significantly faster than it could on it's own.
Author:  SonOfMogh [ 17 Nov 2006, 23:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fleet movements
ON THE SUBJECT OF AVOIDING

I personally don't understand where the desire to have ships be able to avoid conflicts comes from. How exactly can a Federation Freighter with no cloak stop a Romulan Warbird from blowing it up? As long as it doesn't disappear from the Romulans' sensors, what exactly would the captain of the Freighter do to avoid destruction?

My take on it is that you make a judgement call as the man in charge when you send a ship out into interstellar space. If the ship has little to no defense capability then first of all, are your borders safe? Do you have adequate active patrols right now to be confident your unarmed ship can freely fly around within your own space?

If sending it outside of your borders, how safe is that area of space? Have you seen enemy vessels operating in that area before? How close is it to enemy borders?

If you have any concens about any of the following then for god's sake assign an escort vessel. Or at the very least ensure a heavily armed ship is in the general vicinity- Lets not forget that with the pursue command, your enamy cannot just fly in, destroy your transport and fly out. If a nearby Galaxy class spots you fleeing from the scene, even if you managed to take out the Transport, you're still gonna get owned before you make it home. As such, if you spot a tough ship nearby then you won't attack the Transport.

If you send a transport, a colony ship, or a surveyor into disputed space without an escort, then you are a poor tactician and deserve to have that vessel picked off by a passing Bird Of Prey.


I think sometimes it's easy to think of the features of BoTF without ever questioning them. Avoid, as it was in BoTF was unrealistic and just plain odd. Obviously this is my opinion, I'd be very pleased to hear others!
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