Due to several interesting ideas regarding additions to the list (posted in another thread), I'm posting the list again here. Sorry I havent had time over the last couple of days to address them, repost comments in this thread and I'll adjust the list as neccessay. Also I'm going to post the Tech Tree and Object Database, (later).

Empire Structure List

heres my suggestions reposted



you have the dominion "death squads" for unrest. the Jem'hadar and the vorta dont strike me as sorts that would really be intimidated by anything like that, infact only 1 thing can bring them both to their knees, the founders. So instead how about something like "visit from a founder" or "founder sector tour" or something along those line. It doesnt need to be brutal, and youve seen how loyal dominion turn into absaloute zealots when they actually see a founder

youve got the "Bunker station" for the klingons. That makes it sound like theres only 1, i like the old bunker network. If you want to avoid that, maybe something like "weapons cache/dumps", like a big system wide network of hidden (cloaked?) weapons stores for ground defence. Or maybe "underground transporter Network" i dunno, something protected from orbital attack and useful for ground defence, but station sounds like 1 bunker for an entire planet!!

You got rid of the Labor Camp?? awwwwwwwwww, i see the klingons have something similar in their list now, but for the cardies that labor camp was the main reason i bothered conquering them in the first place. If you do put it in, can you get rid of the morale penalty, conquered people need never know they even exist!!

can you change the federation "gravatic" sensor array to gravametric Very Happy

The "klingon defence force" doesnt sit quite right with me. Its the name of the organisation, it would be like the federation calling starfleet headquarter "starfleet". Stick a HQ on the end or maybe KDF tactical college or something

lol, took me 5 minutes to figure out Empire Structure List links to the Empire Structure List...

A Night patrol for the Romulans gives + 4 morale. I'd Romulans would be scared $hitless if Tal'Shiar operatives roamed the streets at night.

Phoenix Network and Tal Shiar Branch
+2% Intelligence Empire-wide
Could you explain what that means?

How come Starfleet command replaced the Academy?

Why didn't you put the Fleetyards in?

How come the Dominion officer structure is the Vorta lab? I, mean, it's ok, but I thought something with the Jem'Haddar would be more appropriate.

What does O.P.E. stand for?

I also have a few comments on the list. At first, why give the Romulans a weopons bonus and the Klingons an Energy bonus. Aren't they better switched?

Why do only the Federation and the Dominion have stealth detection? As two of the empires who don't use cloak. It would be more logical that the Romulans and Klingons have it since they know exactly how their cloaking technology works. So they would be able to detect cloaked ships better in anycase than those who do not have the technology itself.

The cloaking detection was done, because of cannon. The Federation is know to have TDG on it's borders, and Dominion anti-proton beams (I'm guessing)


http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tachyon_detection_grid
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Antiproton_beam

A question rises, though. Why does the Dominion get 100% scan of cloaked ships and the Feds get 50?

Yeah, WHERE'S MY FLEETYARDS?!!!

Another thing - the Cardassian Aquafarm - i'm bit worried about the 10% Bio-research bonus - won't this just get abused?

Since there is the possibility that you could have several Oceanic Planets per system, and you could have quite a lot of Oceanic Planets throughout the galaxy, they might end up having a huuuuge bonus to Bio research - they could focus their research in the other areas, but the bonuses would keep their Bio research on par - they'd end up better than the Federation at research! 8O

Also, where did the idea that you would need colony ships to build the Habitation projects come from? That hasn't been discussed in the thread!

The Fleetyard stats are in the TWAAO thread, right, so dafedz can put them in

Yeah, that's realy gonna get exploited ALOT, maybe make it smaller for the Carddies? Or limit it aditionaly?

Also, the Phoenix Network and Tal Shiar Branch (if I correcty understand what they mean) will make the Roms and Carddies awfully strong in intell. Anyone think the Federation should have someting similar for internal security. A structure (one per system, like the Network and Tal Shiar Branch) that improve Federation officer loyalty or, preferably internal security?

I am still worried the feds and klingons will have stupidly weak internal security like they did in BOTF1.

Also I like the idea of death squads for dominon and would be opposed to a chainging it to founder visit.

Say the Dominion conquered Earth. And to settle the Humans, they order a "Founder vist"... They'd probably kill it and make pudning.

Again, I repeat, the Federation needs SOME int. sec bulding per system not to be a helpless sheep

I don't know about the WAY that cloak detection will work. It is looking an awful lot like the 'sensor density' used to detect cloaks in BotF I, which made the cloaks less useful strategically, and now with less tactical uses for a cloak, will there be any use of a cloak at all against the Federation or Dominion?

I do like the Dominion's cloaking detection system, but I don't think it should be 100%. They still cloak the Defiant later in DS9, and it often works.

I think that the Federation's cloaking countermeasures should be the TDG, which detects ships crossing the border, but may lose them once in the Federation.

Enough about that, though

------------------------------

What is with the Romulan sensor systems? even if you go with the Gravitic sensor (which with the proper limitations could actually work despite my rant, Romulan sensors are canonically equal to Federation sensors. I think that that structure should be available to both Feds and Roms. I also would like to see the Feds get the Roms isolinear scanner as well. Perhaps some changes might be in order, though:

Federation scanners:
1. Subspace Scanner: +2 scan range
2. Listening Post: +4 scan range
3. Subspace Telescope: +6 scan range
5. Gravitic Sensor Net: + 10 scan range, 50% cloak detection - 4 per empire

Romulan scanners:
1. Subspace Scanner: +2 scan range
2. Listening Post: +4 scan range
3. Isolinear Scanner: +6 scan range
5. Subspace Detection Grid: +9 scan range, 75% cloak detection - 4 per empire

--------------------------------

How about a special Kligon morale structure called the "Monastery of Kahless" located in some native member system other than the homeworld? (the canon 'Boreth Monastery' is my source for this) It could either provide a morale bonus, or a defence bonus. (it raises troop morale by reaffirming their belief in the teachings of Kahless, bringing them to desire their place in Sto'vo'Kor). This would free one of the homeworld-based structures to give the Klingons an internal security bonus, which many people think might be lacking.

Then again, if Romulans and Cardassians intel bonuses are just absorbed by the other empire's defensive intel bonuses, then doesn't that kind of prevent the Roms and Cards from being the best in intel? So if their ships are weaker, slower, less powerful, AND the cloak can be detected relatively easily by some enemies (and the Cardies don't get it at all), AND neither Card or Rom intel will be as effective as before, it seems that the Romulans and Cardassians won't really have any teeth at all!

That would be most unfortunate. Continuity as well as gameplay would demand that the Cardassian Obsidian Order and the Romulan Tal Shiar have an effective means of waging an intelligence war.

I don't think the Romulans should have effective cloak detection since they could never detect the Klingon cloak during the episode with Admiral Jarok or even when there was a cloaked bird of prey around Romulas in Unification.

Well, agreed, those two should be preimiere intel agencies in the game, but, a building on each colony gives them an ADDITIONAL +2% General

WITH 50 COLONIES THAT IS 100% (the map will be enormous, remember) intel, + their intel buildings on the homeworld (20 and 15%) + the strongest databanks/intel centers.

And the Federation and Klingon defence? 0...

And, yes, there is no cannon support for Romulan cloak detection. The fact they know how THEIR cloaks operate is completly unrelated to the Klingons.
TNG's Unification is (as sonn noted) the real evidence. They were on top them and they didn't find anything suspicious

Good points on cloaking. I forgot about those episodes....
I still think that the basic sensors should have the same capabilities, though! Then again, to balance the uber Fed sensor the Romulans can't get, I now understand why the Rom. Isolinear scanner is better.

Still, I'd like to see the total scanning abilities fit together about like so:
1. Dominion - Great sensors, best cloak detection (but still not perfect)
2. Federation - similar general sensors, less powerful cloak-detection.
3. Romulans - canonically equal sensors to Fed, just no cloak-detection.
4. Cardassians - pretty decent sensors
5. Klingons

I agree that a structure on every colony could get a bit out of hand! I actually liked the BotF II intelligence system, where there were one or two empire-wide structures that gave you, say, 25% total intel (or more specific, I don't care), but other colony structures that just give you a set number of additional points.

The trick in balancing Federation, Klingon, and Dominion intel with the better Romulan and Cardassian intel will be making the more defensive races better protected from massive sabotage campaigns without creating a system where those defenses can be abused to make large empires totally invulnerable.

I personally don't know how to do that, but surely someone more important does!

Right ok to respond to each, one by one.

- I can see how the Founder's may strike reverence and fear into a populace during a revolt, but Jem'Hadar Death Squad sounds probably more 'effective', and well, cool.

- I pluralised the name of the defence structures to Bunker Stations, which would simply indicate that there are a series of them.



- It's there, maybe you missed it. Forced Labour Commune, +25% Raw Materials.




- It was actually called the 'Gravitic Sensor Net', I believe.



- I do see what you mean, whats the general consensus? Maybe it could be changed to Klingon Defence Force Command / HQ, or something.



- I guess they would. But it's all about balance, balance, balance. One of the Cardassian special abilites is their morale control. To have one empire being the best at something, you naturally have to have a 'worst' as well, or 'less effective. It would make for a poorer gaming experience if every race had the same values for the common structures and resources. A lower +morale here simply balances various other strengths that they do have. If you wish a canon explanation, perhaps we could say Spock's attempts at promoting the civilian Fifth Column is gaining some ground, and the masses are becoming less susceptible to state intimidation?



- I will, seeing as this has raised some concern, and validly so. My thoughts for this Intel structure was merely based on how their Intelligence ability would increase as the empire expanded. Now, it won't be until the game is tested until we can come up with proper working figures for these resources - gaming experience and experimentation will determine much. 2% is a random figure, in that this facility will provide the Intelligence total with a nominal bonus every time one is built. In reflection, it will probably be much better if instead of a percentage (and I of course see how this could balloon out of control), a set Intel points total could be added to the global GRP total. So instead of 2% Intel, it could provide them with say +100 Intel points per structure.



- Hmm, I think that must be a typo. I never consciously meant to change it from Acedemy. Now that Ive done it (by mistake), I'm not sure if Starfleet Command doesn't actually sound better ?



- An oversight. Fleetyards are still in, I just forgot to update the list. The Advanced or Type III Shipyard will be the Fleetyard (a la Utopia Planitia etc.)



- There was much discussion about this in another thread. Consensus leaned more towards this proposal than the others.



- 'One Per Empire'



- In canon, probably. But in Canon the Klingons had Praxis as an energy production centre. It has since been proposed that this be switched not to Energy research per se, but Energy Production, meaning that the Qo'noS system will receive lets say +500 energy for this installation. I havent got any figures as yet, it will have to be balance within the Object database for the Klingons before a final figure is worked out (+500 was top of my head).

In answer to switching, yes perhaps the Romulans might be better off with some sort of Energy research station instead of Weapons, such as a 'Singularity Research Base' or something. I quite liked the 'Plasma Physics Centre' though, maybe a suitable adjustment can be made for the Klingons, such as Particle Physics Lab or something.



- As noted by Jarok, the Dominion's Anti-Proton beams made cloaks more or less redundant. Again, the percentage figures quoted here aren't set or established, they just provide a guide to who is stronger or weaker in such areas.



- As addressed in previous response. I liked the idea of some kind of Bio-Tech research bonus from thses facilities, but understand that problems might arise if generalised with a percentage bonus (like the Tal Shiar Branch). Not sure how the Research GRP system wil function yet. If points can be allocated per tech field, then a Bio-Tech points system could represent Aquafarm structures, rather than a percentage. It will be the same as Subatomic Simulators in a way, in that it will provide an extra Research points bonus for the system, rather than a global percentage. Aquafarms will work the same way, but be dedicated to Bio-Tech as a field rather than overall research. Also take into account that Oceanic planets are not going to be that common, see This File for more info on planets.




- I did mention it somewhere as a possible idea. I added it to this list as an afterthought. I thought it would be nice to have the ability later on in the game and go back and boost system pops with these structures. Waiting for the Colony ship III to do this also seems logical seeing as this will most likely involve advanced colonizing procedures. I had the idea that a kind of partial 'Terraforming' of the asteroid would be involved before the domes (sorry, Habitation Projects) could be built. It was just an idea.

- Regarding Internal Security versus Rom and Card Intel strength. Only beta testing will figure this out. Some things can be guessed well enough in the planning stage, but if such a blatant weakness becomes evidentially apparent, a counter-measure structure or ability can easily be implemented.

- Jarok, about those sensor abilities, yeh I could go with that, but the Roms have their preset strengths, pluses and minuses - and their lack of an advanced deep space scanner is a preconceived minus to their empire's ability. If, again, during beta testing it becomes evident that this inability is a definite flaw that is too easily exploited, they'll be given one I guess.

For now, this whole table is a provisional list for the initial testing structure of the game being built. I can still imagine it being different in many places when the eventual final release hits the shelves (er, Downloads Section...)



- A Monestary of Kahless sounds good, but they already have the Hall Of Warriors, buildable in any colonized system. It provides the system with +2 morale, and 40% Ground Defence. If howver the Monestary is favourable then yeh by all means.



Believe me, they got teeth, not very pretty teeth either (lol). The balancing has been meticulously observed (I think, and hope). The Ship strengths table is still being tweaked, and the Object/Structure database for both these races hasn't been completed yet. They'll be plenty more opportunities to even things out before testing starts. It will be in the testing that any such 'imbalances' (that we are discussed now) can be addressed.

perhaps Klingon Defense Command as the structure (throwing an idea out into the open)

why do feds have the highest food bonuses in botf 2, in botf 1 romulins had the supperior food production and all bonuses were certain amounts except for the romulins food structure which gave 30% to the system production, all other food bonus structures just gave a bonus of 20-50 points. romulins also had a superior dilithium production at the expense of alot of power, the structure should be double that of the feds one in production of dilithium. if a food/power structure aint on every planet it should only give a fixed bonus points and not a percentage boost to the entire system

also fed should not have a industry bonus in botf they never had one, thier best at reasearch, its kling and card that are best at industry and dom best a ship building only, so for dominion thier should be like a 25% bonus to thier ship yards in production, the way you have a dominion setup thier ship bonus would only be gotton half way through the game , when they should have thier racial bonus straight away

well seeing as the games still going to have you building intel,food,industry,power and research structures as your main bulk, feds and klings would only need to build more intel structures to protect against the intel of the roms or cards

And i reiterrate my worries about crap internal securitie for the feds and klingons. Could you garuntee dafdez that the federation and klingons will have decent internal security so that they dont end up loosing 3 top line ships a turn etc etc even after devoting whole systems to internal secruity. Furthermore do you have any info on exactly how intel will function. That post I started has been going on a while now, im just worried intel will end up as poor as it was in BOTF1.

hehe poor dafedz, maybe you should clone yourself to deal with all these replies

lol,

Anyway, I think that dafedz is trying to say these are sort of "best guesses" he could make. Only beta-testing will determine if these bonuses are to high. If they are, they will be edited based upon how the testers see fit.

horadrim, I share your conserns, as I already said, but the intel problem was not so much be based on the buildings the empire had, rather the entire system and organisation of the intel screen.
I'm not sure this thread is right for posting questions about the intel screen, since dafedz will probably have to write long posts on all the questions relating to the Empire Structure.

raiden_rse, the Dominion has the best yards, if you look closely. The last stage has a 250% bonus, opposed to the maximum 200% for the other races

The Intelligence 'engine' hasnt been constructred yet, and it's still in the thread discussion stage, but I do see your point about being concerned for the Federation and Klingons. How about a proposed starting structure for each that will grant them a little bit security.

Federation Diplomatic Corps.
+20% Internal Security

Klingon Intelligence
+20% Internal Security

Maybe 20% is too high, we don't want to eliminate the Cardassian and Romulan strength altogether, their cold war tactics is their unique ability. Also, even on a random map, there will be plenty of Intel races throughout the galaxy for the Feds and Klingons to acquire to bolster their own Intelligence.

Raiden - when you see the Object database for the 5 empires, you'll discover that the common food structures (automated farms etc) that each race has will have different food levels. The Type 1 Automated Farm for the Federation generates +20 Food for the system per structure. The Romulans will have +25 for their type 1, hence balancing that out. And they will generate more food pro rata with each farm right up to type 11. They also have the Bio-Replication net as an additional Food bonus structure, providing them with +15% for the system. And if you're wondering what the Bio-Replication Net is, the building description is:

"The Bio-Replication Net is an advanced bio-matter recycling plant. A simple replicator is less efficient at reverse-translating replicated products back into their base elements. These devices collect and transform all biological waste products into reusable biomass, ready for recycling."

I think the name of the Federation Structure should be changed - it should be called Starfleet Security, whilst Starfleet Intelligence deals with external matters.

If we're making the game canon, then these would be the correct names for the Structures.

The Klingon one is fine - Klingon Intelligence deals with pretty much all of it.

Of course, you're absolutely right. Why the hell did i put 'Diplomatic Corps' down. Must have been thinking of Internal Affairs by mistake. lol.

Yes, Starfleet Security +20% Internal Security..


Also, right this second, I will crush any lingering ideas about reviving a Section 31 debate. There will be NO Section 31.

End of Section 31 debate forever.

just wondering if the cards will still have the best phaser arcs for thiers ships as they did in botf, they could fire thier phasers from any direction, was thier secondary bonus to thier ships

I didn't realise firing arcs were actually in BOTF...the weapons (Except Torpedoes) seemed to fire in pretty much any direction for all of the races.

As far as I know, firing arcs have NOT been taken into account...yet. If they are in, they will be soon.

...

So...is Section 31 in Dafedz?

(Runs for cover)

lol.

I do believe that the Cards could actually fire backwards, ie when facing the wrong way. If that is the case and it can be done again this time, yes they will definitely retain this advantage.

I think the feds don't go too bad with firing arcs either. After TNG, each battle-capable ship has phaser-arrays in each direction and at least one aft torpedo-tube.

Later Federation ships also have dedicated Phaser Banks/Arrays on the Nacelles, to improve the rear defense of the ship.

I think the Sovereign is an example of such ship.

Having additional dedicated Arrays could be an advantage of Federation ships. (Not that it would matter against my Warbirds)

stop going off topic, fireing arcs have zilch to do with structures