Well perhaps they could get a weapons research bonus after every battle, we could say that they test weapons in the field routinely.

The Klingons should have some sort of bonus, we are giving the Federation and Romulans a science bonus from scanning anomalies afterall.

SonOfMogh or Rigel should give their opinon on the matter. They are the resident Klingons after all.

I don't know... If we put it too high, it'll significantly tip the odds to the Klingon side.

Anyway, why should every race be equal in all segments

While I'm on that subject, what are the race advantages, in the end?

Dominion - accelerated construction
Feds - research, diplomacy?
Klingons - ?
Cardassians - ?
Roms - intel?

It's probably been said, and I just forgot...

while on the subject of race advantage, the cardassians could also get an intel bonus like botf1 with the obsidian order or something like a subjucation/invasion bonus.

Well the Cardassian Subjugation bonus would likely be represented in their buildings, like they were in BOTF (The slave camp thing and the Re-eductation center)

I don't know whether the Empire-specific buildings have been discussed or not, but the Cardassians will likely get the Obsidian Order, Central Command, and the Re-education Center again. For the Romulans, the same is hopefully true with the Tal Shiar, and the Astrophysics Academy.

What bonus did the Klingons really have in BOTF though? Sure, they had lotsa weapons in the game, and they were more resistant to invasion, but that was the only bonus that I ever noticed them as having. If those were the only bonuses, we might have to come up with one... (Or forget about it, like CVN said, why should the races be equal?)

Anyway, this is how I personally see the bonuses:

Dominion - Build ships twice as fast as other races, possibly Trade
Federation - All-round research*, Diplomacy, possibly Trade
Klingons - Resistant to invasion, Better in battles (Does this count?)
Cardassians - Resource boost from subjugated systems, Intel
Romulans - Intel, Energy research*

*For the Federation, by all-round research, I mean that they could have a small bonus, that affects ALL areas of research. However, with the Romulans, because this bonus is focused on one area, the bonus would be larger, whilst other areas of research would continue at normal pace.

This means the Federation will always be slightly ahead of the other Empires in all areas, whilst the Romulans would be ahead of them all in energy.

They all sound good, although I would suggest the Dominion should either have an Intel bonus (sabotage) they have managed to infiltrate all major powers in the past, or Diplomacy, as the Vorta are skilled ambassadors.

and i'm sure those changlings could infiltrate an empire or two

Well, I wont bust on you too hard traenol, simply because DS9 was the best trek series made.

Well, the race bonuses that matress last put up mostly sound good, maybe just a few changes.

Like traenol said, klingons got a waepon research bonus in botf, I'm not sure how completely cannon it is, but I say lets keep it.

As far as the Dom goes, matress' bonuses sound good, but I'd like to possibly see some kind of weapon bonus for them as well. Reason for this would be when the alpha powers first encounter the Dominion, they posses weapons tech that is much more powerful than what the feds have, and it can pass throught their sheilds.

As far as the Cards and Roms go, both bonuses sound good, but they just seem like they could use something more/else. I just dont know what.

INFIDEL!!!


__
Kidding, about the ship classes; I think it's pretty much the same names (destroyer, cruiser...) EXCEPT for "Strike cruiser". That's gone
I hated that designation

Good idea but I would change it around a bit. I would have two different limits on phenomena research. For a science ship to give its research bonus should take fuel, so if the science ship has only two years of fuel (I would hope 24 turns), then that's about how long it can stay before it has to return to base, refuel, then return or search for better phenomena.

The second limit should be based on the over all research level of the empire in question. That level can be based on the combined value of all the individual pieces of research you have. That then translates into a maximum amount you can research from a given phenomena. But if you research more technology, thus boosting you over all understanding, it will increase the study limit you have on all phenomena. Another feature could be that certain things can't be researched untill you have a certain level of technology or that their bonus is much lower than when you have too low a level.

I like this idea a lot, it would be a really simple way to integrate tech stealing, without actualy having tech stealing. Every race could have this but the Klingons could have the highest such bonus. Perhaps it could be realted to the number of ships on the enemy's side and their tech level in oposition to your own tech level. A higher enemy tech level would give a lower bonus to research but would give one that is longer term, where as someone of equal or near equal tech level will give a larger although one time research boost.

We discussed this in great detail, maybe in this thread, several months back. I think part of it went like this:

Dominion - partial internal security, inteligence, sabotage, construction
Feds - research, diplomacy, rare randomly accuring security bonuses
Klingons - attack bonuses and related, such as conquest
Cardassians - internal security, (one time super weapons would be good as well actualy)
Romulans - internal security, inteligence, sabotage

STRIKES-

Overall, one of the most important aspects of this game is the feeling of being immersed in the universe quite clearly defined in Trek. Since we've seen planetary assaults before (think the card/rom attack on founders homeworld), and we know the ships deployed are merely the largest cruiser types, combined with the fact that not one character has ever alluded to the existance of a strike cruiser, my belief is that the game doesn't need them. I'm sure aome ships will vary in their balance of phasers/photons/shields.

KLINGONS-

I personally don't like the idea of substantial Klingon research bonuses, regardless of the field. Klingons are known to be slow in this area. However I love the idea of Klingon XP starting high. You're quite right that they spend most of their time from childhood preparing for battle. It could also be the case that Klingon XP increases quicker than other races, after all they tend to put their all into any battle situation, undeterred by a fear of death.

TROOP SHIPS-

While I don't really want Troop Ships to carry massive photon compliments etc, I fully agree they should be defended. Perhaps one or two phaser banks, perhaps even a photon launcher on Klingon versions. From a gameplay standpoint, you don't really want troop ships to be able to repel anything more than a light scout unescorted.

PLANETARY SHIELDS-

A shield that covered a whole planet would be silliness to the extreme. I saw planetary shields in BOTF as more like individual shields around military or strategically important installations. I guess that's realistic enough going on what we've seen.

- The Akira is really like a strike ship, however, only in the way that it has the potential for an overwhelming torpedo strike.

- Federation troop ships are actualy canon, in DS9 they were mentioned as carrying Federation troops. It's also true that there don't seem to be any unarmed vessels either, even the cargo ships in Enterprise are well armed for their tech level. A troop ship should definatly have phasers for defense against light warships, not necesarly any torpedoes, and to offer ground support if they can spare the time. Keep in mind that real Star Trek ground battles can consist of hundreds of thousands of ground personel on either side.

- Planetary shields seem to be what were intended in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. In TOS there is also a planetary shield around an insain asylum, although with artificial gravity and no image of the horizon, there is no telling how large the planetary body was. In later Treks, a few large shields were seen around asteroids or instalations, and in DS9, the damage of San Fransisco is indicitive of a theater shield, indicating that cities, towns, and important instalations are protected by non-planet size shields. Also ground batteries are mentioned, as well as the Cardasians being seen to have an orbital defense platform system, and Betazed was mentioned as having an outmoded defense network of somesort.

It stands to reason that "Theater Shields" should be a buildable option for system (systems will still be managed as a whole, instead of indivigual planets still, right?), as should "Ground Batteries" that would consist of extremely heavy ground based phasers and torpedo launchers with their own shields. Any space station should act like an orbital defense grid but not have the same coverage. An actual "Orbital Defense Grid", which would consist of orbital defense stations, should be buildable for a system. It just so happens I designed some only a few weeks ago.

I have top views of the larger stations in another image for the purpose of modeling.

And here is the argument for their size.
http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/show ... ostcount=4

I seriously never imagined the defense stations to be that big! I'd never have been able to work out the relative sizes like that either, MajorDiarr - you must be a genius! (The Star Empire could use people like you...)

I never even noticed the torpedo launchers before - they are most definitely the same as the ones used on DS9.

I always imagined the shields to be exactly as SOM stated - they are not intended to protect an entire planet, because this would be massively costly in energy - something that would be hard to get in times of war - and it would be wasteful. Why employ a massive shield generator to cover an entire planet, when you can employ a smaller one that can just protect the important areas? (Like a city)

Smaller shields would actually be more powerful, because the energy is spread less thinly. Shield power is decreased by the area covered, afterall. This also explains why starships have several shield grids.

MajorDiarr, i'd let Jigaly know that you have come up with such orbital stations - he might be intrested by you ideas. They could well make it into the game, if you are lucky.

...

Right then, I agree that there shouldn't be Strike Cruisers in the game either. We opened up a thread about naming ships, in there I put up a list about actual naval classes of ship. Several of those are actually more suitable as classes of ship, than a Strike Cruiser would be, anyway.

...

SonOfMogh is the authority on the Klingons. He is our resident Klingon afterall. What he says should have some merit. I do however believe the Klingons could have some small weapons research bonus. The increased XP is also a must for them, and it could also be applied (To a lesser extent) to the Jem'Hadar as well. They are bred for battle, afterall.

...

I attempted to mod my own troop transport to have weapons in BOTF, but it didn't turn out very well. I think there was a problem with the accuracy and defence ratings. Anyway, I certainly think that they should have a few low-powered phasers, but no torpedoes. (Except maybe the Klingons one)

As mentioned before, we have seen in Enterprise a few cargo ships that are quite heavily armed, considering they tech level. These weapons did have several drawbacks, however, because they were a big drain on energy, and they had a relatively small firing arc. Perhaps similar limitations could be put on them, if people are worried they would be too powerful?

I also agree that they should have an above-average armour rating. Ships that have to go down to a Planetary surface whilst under fire need to be strong, to be able to actually get their troops down in the first place.

Their shields should also be respectable, but they shouldn't be able to take punishment from anything bigger than a Destroyer though.

There then, that's my catching up done in a single post. 17,000-word essays on how to make a sandwich safely is not a pleasant way to spend your time!

Those are interesting ideas for the orbital platforms Diarr. I read your explantation for why they are so big, but they still seem too big. Nice big target... if a ship could make it to it to fire, that is.

I agree with the thought that their should be no true 'Strike' cruiser, but that doesnt mean that their should be no ships that should boast a large ammount of trops and the tubes to fire them. I dont know if there is anywhere that has TRUE cannon stats for the Akira, but from everything I've heard about it, it is essentially a 'torpedo boat'. If we go with these stats for the construction of the Akira, then there should be some other ships in other empires lineups that could also be designed with a high torp load in mind.

And as far as the cargo/troop tranport ships, I agree with what matress said. They should be able to defend themselves, but even a group of these ships should not be able to defend against anything bigger than a destroyer, without some kind of backup.

Then all of the Enterprises are "nice big targets" too, it doesn't stop them from being the best. The Cardasian platforms were shown as being extremely small things but they were extremely easy targets none the less, simply because they didn't manuver. What saved them was their pretty much endless amount of power and what must have been an amazingly heavy shield system for constructs of their size. As you've said, nothing is going to stick around long enough to do damage to these things. You would need a fleet of hundreds and hundreds of ships to fight my stations in when they're in groups in order to spread fire. DS9 could take on a fleet of 60 on its own, I'm thinking a couple of my large station is going to be up there with some support from its counterparts. If anything they aren't big enough.


By my count the Akira has anywhere from 17 to 27 torpedo tubes, with 16 of them being heavier than the rest.

I heard the Akira was pretty much a 'torpedo boat' as well. It certainly has many tubes. I heard that the Akira has at least nine tubes in the roll-bar pod alone!

It also has sideways-facing tubes - I heard that this is a relatively rare configuration in Starfleet vessels, but it allows the Akira to keep firing whilst maneouvering, increasing their combat effectiveness considerably.

For the Romulans, the only ship that I can think of as a torpedo boat, would be the D'deridex - bit of a size advantage there.

By my count the Akira has 12 to 15 tubes in the role bar pod, four to eight side tubes, and 1 to 4 under the saucer. The Saber Class also have side firing torpedo tubes, in First Contact you can this.

Both of these classes of ship are relatively 'new'.

Perhaps this shows a change in the Federation's design philosophies? It was likely a decision made to increase the combat capability of those ships, like I said about the Akira.

Are the 15 Akira torpedo launchers really canon? I have read that in several sources, but none of them (as far as I know) are canon sources.

My assumption is either that the 15 tubes are what is known as 'fanboy wanking' where I'm from, or (more likely) the person who interviewed about the ship's capabilities didn't really know Trek. (Sadly, we see that more and more. I miss Nicholas Meyer...and Ira Behr...etc.)

Anyway, in films (Ultimate Uber-Supreme canon) we only see two forward launchers in the tactical pod, and we can assume an identical two aft launchers, ala rollbar Miranda-class.

Still, that gives us more of a volley (two forward launchers as opposed to one) than a Galaxy-class can dish out, torpedo wise. Add quantums, and....well, generic doom is unleashed upon the enemies of the Federation....

More on Akira.....

I thought the 'side tubes' were docking ports....silly me.
Really room for 10+ in the rollbar and tactical pod? Think about the equipment necessary for each launcher. If it will fire more than once, it needs a loading mechanism of some kind, and this takes up space.

Anyway, I'd be willing to shut up about this, but where do you see all of these? is there a picture available for torpedo launcher counting? I'd like to see a Norway, as well....

Anyway, if you can prove it, cool. More power to the Akira (A very cool ship, I might add)

How close to canon are the weapons ranges going to be? Obviously we will have to scale them down a bit, 250,000 kilometers makes it a little hard to see what you are shooting at, from a tactical screen perspective. Anyway, will they reflect the level of accuracy seen in 'The Wounded' (TNG)? If so, that would be very, very cool.

That would pose some interesting problems, though. If weapons fire was accurate even at extreme ranges, perhaps evasive maneuvers should involve less shooting and more evading, if they are to have any hope of surviving. Also, I think that unless something is really evading, it shouldn't be that hard to hit. I can't believe how many times EXPERIENCED (elite+) crews have missed a scout that was TRAVELLING IN A STRAIGHT LINE!

Seriously, the obligatory "All ships fire phasers, but be sure to miss...." is pretty stupid. In big battles, BoTF I had more missed shots than all of Trek put together!!!!

This rant brings me to my real question:
If weapons ranges are accurate, and accuracy is decently comparable to what we see in Trek, what is to prevent an attacker from just pelting a stationary platform from great distance, and manuvering just enough to evade the counterattack? That should be possible (A pox on the DS9 powers-that-be for overlooking such a simple strategy...), but what do you think?

In my opinion a really defended starbase is obviously capable of having greater range firestrikes than the opponent's ships. Just think of DS9's fight against the whole klingon fleet (DS9[4]: Way of the warrior).

The Combat System is going to be totally new, 100% built from scratch by Gavin.

He isn't even going to release it to the testers until he is satisfied that there aren't any major problems with it.

This means that any problems will likely/hopefully be tiny, unoticable things.

The combat will be far better than in BOTF, and you'll be able to get your ships to fly in formations, perform tactical maneovers, etc. Hell, the Prometheus even has multi-vector assault mode!

You will have far more control over the ships, so I don't think people will be dissappointed.

...

As for the Akira, I have the box for Armada 1 in front of me. Whilst this obviously isn't canon, I can see at least 8 torpedo launchers on the pod, and possibly another two, but it is harder to tell exactly what these two things are.

I can also see at least 6 rear or side-facing launchers on the saucer section.

I can't even see the front or underneath of the ship, so I assume there are even more of them than that!

I know this again isn't a canon source, but there are also Micro-Photons. These are smaller-than-normal Photon torpedoes, designed to be fitted onto small craft like Runabouts and Scout vessels.

Obviously, they do far less damage and aren't as accurate as normal Photons, but they represent the possibility that Torpedo technology could be shrunk down.

I also imagine that having all the torpedo launchers in the same place would be very efficient. You wouldn't need to have separate storage facilities for each launcher, and they might even run off the same power supplies etc.

This would mean that you actually save on space, making multiple launchers a possibility.

We also know the Federation has changed it's design philosophy during/since the Dominion War. They build ships with far greater offensive/defensive capability than they did - and when you think about it, even the Enterprise-D only used her torpedoes for defensive reasons or otherwise.

Her systems weren't effectively designed to be used in large-scale wars and battle, since there hadn't been any large-scale wars and battles in 70 years. There wouldn't have been a sense of a real need for this.

By the time you get to the Akira though, ships that can fire weapons in many directions as fast as possible whilst performing evasive/tactical maneovers would be invaluble to the Federation. This is why I imagine the Akira would have many weapons.

Since I totally agree with you Matress I even remember to have read something about pulse-firing micro-tubes on the akira. I'm really looking forward to seeing what gavin's TBS has for us

Edit: When warping out... will Intrepids put their nacelles up? I mean... if we have the multi-vector mode...

Ooh, nice...you'd have to ask Gavin or one of testers about that though - I haven't got a clue.

Well, I see the point in gavin not reading to much here since this game has to be completed

But I assume that none of the testers ever seems to show up here (or at least *they* don't out theirselves as such testers ^^), the game must be incredibly!!!

Think about it: You are a tester for the game. Would you leave it for a single second? I thought not.

No. That's why I'd like to be a tester

This isnt fair, as it wasnt fair in BOTF 1, how could a society function if there emphasis wasnt on being the best in technology terms. Your trying to deliberatly set up everyone except the feds to fail. Your basing this on some narrow view of the race, you only see the militaries of each power in star trek (except in Ds9 where you briefly saw some non-military, non dukat like cardassians in the final episodes) so please stop thinking these other powers would forsake everything important to an ideologies survival to act like a monorace!!!! all klingons love honour and war, all cardassians are ruthless .. not true, those are just the qualities that are reveered highest in those societies... If there was no incentive to be a boffin in the klingon empire, then nothing would get done, or a farmer or a postman. And you cant just get it into your heads that only those who arent good enough to be warriors become researchers, because then the klingon empire would be filled with idiots and would never have got into space in the first place

take the cold war, the U.S won because it was seen to have superior technology.. The soviets looked like they were winning when they put gagarin into space and make everything american seem 20years old. Being the best technologically is the key to domination of one ideology over another. Not because you can bomb them into the ground with better torpedoes but because to the people it looks like the other side, the other ideology is better. Diplomatic advantage is more than enough for the feds. For the sake of gameplay, and common sense, research must be given equal oppurtunity or the feds will just beat everyone into the ground by the 60th turn

And by the end of the game the feds shouldnt have better ships for the hell of it. As much as you loved the 60odd seconds of promethius CG its not fair to let them rampage across the galaxy blowing battleships up for fun because of it..

Make a game, then mod it into some silly scenario on your own time

I disagree. The first thing is: Who said research wasn't part of the military in militaristic empires? Of course it's honorous to enhance technology from a klingon or cardassian point of view. And of course this is done by the military since all we know. This sociological aspect has to be left out anyway since the game has to be playable. Due to this issue I'm pretty sure "they" will balance the game so that wont be any problem.

I also disagree with your historical lesson The Soviets apparently did not fail in competition, because of technological issues, but because the economy broke down. The Cold War illustrates perfectly the political superiority of democracy/capitalism. One subfunction on this is technology, but as a result, and not as a reason.

I think you're being pretty unfair to Matress's post Mark - He highlighted advantages for all races and you've conveniently left out those advantages when talking about how the Federationw ill beat them.

The technology bonus isn't going to be so great when the Romulans/Cardies blow up your research labs and steal your data and the Prometheus isn't going to be wildly imbalanced otherwise it really would screw up gameplay. One of the massive advantages to this game is that it's being made by true fans who know how finely balanced things need to be to satisfy everyone.

There will certainly be limitations to the Federation to stop them being all powerful - Their intel isn't great, their morale is a pain, they can't build as fast as the Dominion and they're not going to be as good in combat as the Klingons.

The different characteristics of the races are important but no one said we were reducing Klingon technology or intel to nothing. All the empires have people behind the scenes working on routine things but the emphasis will be on something different for each race.