Welcome to the forums and a hearty congratulations on your first post. Every question is a good question. I'm pretty sure the answer to that is no. Captain B

Removing conquest from the list of goals for minor races would also help prevent situations where aggressive minor races overpower empires.

Well the option of aggressive minor races overpowering a major empire isn't a minus...

I think it is. If a minor race attacks another empire, you're basically getting "free" help.

Look at it this way: when a foreign empire conquers another foreign empire, you effectively have a transfer of power between two of your competitors: one is weakened while another is strengthened. However, when a minor race conquers a foreign empire, one of your competitors is weakened (or even eliminated), but that strength isn't "transferred" to another competitor--it's transferred to a minor race. This is a very important difference: minor races do not compete with you for victory. They cannot win the game themselves, and you don't need to conquer them in order to win. If minors can conquer, then you could potentially "win" the game simply by sitting back while minor races conquer all of the other empires. Mind you, that's not a scenario that's likely to pan out very often, but my point is that minor race conquest would have an adverse effect on gameplay.

I may not be doing a very good job of explaining this. .Iceman, get your ass over here and help me .

I think it is. If a minor race attacks another empire, you're basically getting "free" help.

Look at it this way: when a foreign empire conquers another foreign empire, you effectively have a transfer of power between two of your competitors: one is weakened while another is strengthened. However, when a minor race conquers a foreign empire, one of your competitors is weakened (or even eliminated), but that strength isn't "transferred" to another competitor--it's transferred to a minor race. This is a very important difference: minor races do not compete with you for victory. They cannot win the game themselves, and you don't need to conquer them in order to win. If minors can conquer, then you could potentially "win" the game simply by sitting back while minor races conquer all of the other empires. Mind you, that's not a scenario that's likely to pan out very often, but my point is that minor race conquest would have an adverse effect on gameplay.

Well, minor races would attack human players and CPU players without distinction. That wasn't my point. Regardless of which empire a minor race conquers, it amounts to free aid to the other empires because it wears down one of their competitors without strengthening another. A minor race conquering an empire would have a more significant impact on the direction of the game than the conquest of one empire by another.

I may not be doing a very good job of explaining this. .Iceman, get your ass over here and help me .

Ok, but the same could be said about the Borg.

No, I understand your point, but imagine that you are able to bribe some developed minor race into attacking your opponent, it could be of great strategic value.

I think minors should be divided on two groups. Lest say on Mini-Empires and Rest .

In other words they can start war with player or other empire but their focus is maybe to grab one system or two and they will be satisfied.

I think this will bring to game tremendous reality and replay value.

One note: Mini-empires already have good amount of special structures with great bonuses and numerous ship classes.

I think it is. If a minor race attacks another empire, you're basically getting "free" help.

Look at it this way: when a foreign empire conquers another foreign empire, you effectively have a transfer of power between two of your competitors: one is weakened while another is strengthened. However, when a minor race conquers a foreign empire, one of your competitors is weakened (or even eliminated), but that strength isn't "transferred" to another competitor--it's transferred to a minor race. This is a very important difference: minor races do not compete with you for victory. They cannot win the game themselves, and you don't need to conquer them in order to win. If minors can conquer, then you could potentially "win" the game simply by sitting back while minor races conquer all of the other empires. Mind you, that's not a scenario that's likely to pan out very often, but my point is that minor race conquest would have an adverse effect on gameplay.

Zeleni wrote:I think minors should be divided on two groups. Lest say on Mini-Empires and Rest .Even more divisions in minors?!

In other words they can start war with player or other empire but their focus is maybe to grab one system or two and they will be satisfied.Why? Either they're a warring race, or they're not.

I think this will bring to game tremendous reality and replay value.Well, if the 50 minor limit sticks, they may not even be in the game. Any of them. If a couple of them are, they may unbalance a single quadrant. Etc.

One note: Mini-empires already have good amount of special structures with great bonuses and numerous ship classes. Their special structures are Home System structures, and their ships are mostly upgrades. A couple of different classes, and at moderate to high tech levels.

Besides the fact that there aren't really many transport ships for minors (and yes, that could be "fixed") - being that the vast majority of the 19 races that actually have them are mere traders, and those ships are freighters rather than "transports", which the game doesn't distinguish - like Mike said, it could present a whole slew of "problems".

The scenario you described would be incredibly 'in character' for anyone playing as either the Dominion or the Federation. When I'm playing as the Federation I won't be sending fleets in to conquer other empires unless they are so aggressive and dangerous there is simply no choice, and anyone playing as the Dominion will be actively trying to weaken all other empires without getting involved... it's the Dominion way. As such I can't see much wrong with this scenario. There really needs to be a win condition that doesn't involve conquest and subjugation for the Feds.

I like that idea, so we will be able to change the minor races we want to fully equal opponents? Ok, lets call it a compromise and make this feature a part of an expansion/mod/sequel

As Zeleni said, those would be the Breen Confederacy, the Gorn Hegemony, the Tzenkethi Autocracy, the Tholian Assembly, the Devore Imperium, the Kazon Collective, the Drai, the Trogorans and perhaps one or two more.

I'm not saying that they should be strong enough to compete in galactic domination, but they should pose the biggest threat to the major empires out of the other minor races. They should expand, build more ships, subjugate weaker races and from time to time try to take a major race planet. Also making them allies in the war against other major races could mean the difference between victory and defeat.

It could depend on the game difficulty. In the most difficult setting, they would attack and be a danger. In the medium setting they should only attack minor races and in the easiest setting they should only rarely attack some weak minor race.

Actually there are non divisions regarding minor races. If you think on key, secondary, tertiary... that isn't real division it only gives rough information about minor race special structure bonuses and nothing more...

They are minor race afterall and would be happy with one additional system with max pop 20 and I think Gorn wouldn't be pleased whith such booty. Sense behind this is to annoy human player who is in war with major empire but still has to pay attention to the mosquito on his neck who only takes advantage of situation.

How many minors will be in the game we don't know so we can't debate. Unbalance why? Game will randomize each time position of race on galactic map regardless of their canon destination so if game loads 4 key races each of them will be positioned in different quadrant (Vulcans in Gamma quadrant)

I already stated that minors ship database needs changes, it depends how will be solved Ai.

1. Minor starts game with tech 3 level (like in Botf)

2. Or all races start with tech 0 and they advance according their own tech modifier, in this situation Tholians are going to have destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser on each tech level like major empires.

What do you mean by special structure is set to native system? How this can be relevant for player? My thinking was that mini-empires already posses structures with great bonuses so they should hard to obtain for human player (membered).