Ok, this is compiled list of Minor Races, their structures and values etc. I haven't posted the list as a message, as it's best viewed as a Word Document due to colour coding and table formatting. As a solution (for those who don't have Word), I've made it into a web page. The link is below.

Please allow page to load, it's large (1 mb)

Races List

As you will see, some races can have Two special structures, an idea I'm playing with which can hopefully be implemented...

New descriptions will have to be created for races not covered yet. We certainly trust your collective creative talents, as it's been well proved thus far.

Here's another page with a run down of Resources, and Resource distribution across the minor races (in accordance to their quadrant location - although this is pertinent only to when playing the canon or approximate Map option). Also on this page is some info on planets and possible planet types.

Resource Distribution

I know you haven't posted this as a message Dafedz, (In which case i'll delete this post if you just want to keep it separated) but there are one or two things regarding the lists i'd like to mention.

Firstly, i'd like to mention the Breen. Originally, we were going to give them the bonus that you've shown, (+25% Weapons Research) but we were also going to give them a slight energy bonus. I was wondering if perhaps they could be given a second building which would give this bonus?

Secondly, we know that Moons and Asteroids will be in the game, but would it be at all possible for you to show us what they will look like in the system map?

Jig has already posted a .gif model of a Planet orbited by two Moons, but it was a singular Planet, so we still don't know how it will look in the system map.

There has also been no pictures at all of how Asteroids will be portrayed on screen; will they be shown as an actual image, or will there be a simple icon next to the Dilithium/Energy/Food bonus icons? Or will they even not be shown, since pretty muchmost system will have them?

I'm sure other people would come up with similar wquestions anyway, so i'm just voicing them. Like i said though, i'll delete my post if you want.

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Anyways, cool!

It's great to have a table like this to give us quick info on the game (Seeing as the TWAAO thread is getting more out of date with each passing day )

It'll definitely be of help to everyone, especially newbies to the site/game.

At the moment things are reasonably well balanced as far as resources go. Granting the Breen Energy research (and hence the Alpha Quadrant another Research resource) may require tweaking elsewhere, but yeh, these things are open to debate now the list's up.

Asteroids, Moons etc, this can easily be done. This photoshop copy/paste effort took 5 mins to come up with.



Seeing this image you wouldn't need an imagination to figure out what it means. I guess it really could be as simple as that. Jigs Gif image looks really cool, but it may become complicated with many moons circling, and it might be too much of a distraction to eye if you have a handful of moons all circling half a dozen planets at the bottom of the system screen. Don't worry somehow it will be implemented.

As far as Deuterium/Dilthium/Raw Materials symbols go, two options. One, have them postioned next to the sun (as in the above image), secondly, over the planet/moon in question. The latter option may result in the system image become cluttered, so next to the sun (indicating that that resource is available in the system) may be the best choice. I was thinking the Raw Materials icon could be a couple of small metal bars, like ingots or something.

So you don't mind us posting here then?

Ok, i'd also personally prefer it if the icons were next to the Sun, just like in BOTF.

I like your idea of making the resources icon a couple of metal ingots, it's pretty obvious what they would mean, at least. The simpler the icons, the better and easier to understand the map will be. Anything that complicates it should be given careful thought beforehand, as it could frighten off any newbies to the game.

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A long time ago, it was said that the Moons would be shown in each 'corner' of the Planet model, thus allowing there to be a max of 4 Moons per Planet.

Jig then made his own model, so I assumed that this was to be used in the game instead. However, your version would allow for much more variation in system size, would allow you to have more Moons, (Since you've made one Planet with 5 Moons ) and wouldn't be such a distraction during the course of a game. (Jig's model is total eye candy afterall - and I mean that in a good way! )

Therefore, I hope your system (Or at least something similar) will be the the chosen final display for the game.

We would have to be careful though; f we put too much into the system map, it will become too cluttered and would spoil the game. The system map is probably the most important screen afterall, since it gives you detailed information on the Planets, resources/bonuses, size, and growth rate of the Planets in that system, all in a single glance. It needs to be as easy to understand as we can make it.

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Thanks for making the model Dafedz, it certainly does give us an idea of how it could look in game.

I look forward to any other ideas on the look of the game you may have, and I only wish I could help...but let's just say that art and graphics are not my strong points, so i'll leave it to the experts.

*Edit - ooh, now it's 1300 posts and counting...soon i'll be the top poster on the site! Bwahahahaha! *

I agree that the Dafedz pic above looks very nice, clear, and crisp. I'd certainly vote for that.

Well nice of both of you to say. It was never meant to upstage Jig's in any way, it was just a representation of how it could look, it was just me throwing an idea around. These things really are cosmetic and not of great concern at the moment. The key issues are creating the nuts and bolts of the game - making sure it can function. Next we have to determine if it can function smoothly. Then the minor cosmetic issues come in, such as the graphical look of the game, interface screens, how nebulas will be portrayed, texturing all the ship models etc. There's still so much to do, we've barely begun.

Cosmetics is still important for the final release though - I know it isn't a priority at the moment; as you say, actually getting it to work should rightly be the main priority...at least for the moment.

We wouldn't want BOTF2 to end up worse off than BOTF1, would we? 8O

Once working properly though, the cosmetics of the game will really need to be given thought. Like I said in my last post, if the screen is too cluttered, it will frighten off newbies, but if it is too plain, older gamers (Like us) would be bored and disappointed. (Hopefully not us )

Eye candy should be used sparingly, but when it is used, the game should go all out. The Tactical Screen and Galactic map are such areas where we need such eye candy.

Whilst I know the Galactic map is completely different, there will be many more screens and gameplay will be a different experience, it would be nice to keep as much of the game familiar, at least from a cosmetics point of view.

It is BOTF2 afterall.

Radically different ideas (Eg. making the screens look more like something from DS9/TOS instead of TNG) would spoil it for me, since I identify TNG screens with the game - something which I think we all do now. TNG screens are what makes the interfaces of BOTF, not fancy buttons from the future. (Or switches from the past! )

This would then be in keeping with the system map. Keeping it relatively the same as with BOTF (With the necessary additions) should be the focus of the screens. From what i've seen so far of those screens, that is the general idea anyway, so I haven't got any problems with anything...yet.

Looking good dafedz. Good to see it all coming along.

That display looks good but the asteroids could do with shrinking and more of them to better balance them as asteroids. I like the idea of ressources appearing on their respective planets, asteroids, suns.

Would be nice to be able to put your mose over these symbols and learn exactly how much they up it by.

You put a lot of effort in with that list btw, cheers.
leads me to a few questions. Youve catagorised the species into their relevant quadrants, is this just so we can see there is a good balance in the game or does it give us an indication to the map options of the game and that these minors will always be in those quadrants? this would mean no random map option?

With regards to the races we can't name. For hunters of Tosk i guesse id settle for going along with Hunters of Tosak as their race name. For the others though i wouldn't want them included, this is sad as if im not mistaken the night race are from voyager and i very much wanted them included but ithout a name im not that interested. I see no reason to allow them in when we (quite rightly in my opinion) said we werent going to add some very dubious races from early star trek games.

I'm more than positive there will be random maps.

As far as those names go, Hunters of Tosk and Night Race both work fine for me.

Same here, but isn't it pointless to have races that we know so little about?

Ah well, the more the better...

Well there's a few we know little about, but what we do know does add something to the game - a reasonably legitimate special structure and hence resource. It's not just a race name we have to come up with, but a star system name and planet. We can't have a planet called Night Race Planet I, or Huntersoftoskia, etc lol. So we'll have to think of something if they're in. Grathon Tolar's race I want to keep as well, for political sabotage, most useful indeed.

And yes, the quadrant scheme for those races is for a canon or approximate map. As I understand it this is how it will work.

Option 1. Canon Map. A pre-arranged map with set positions for all the empires and the key minor races whose star positions we may know or can guess well enough. Each Major will receive 1 key, exapandable minor close by.

Federation- Vulcans
Klingons-Maybe Gorn or Sheliak
Romulans-Maybe Yridians
Cardassians-Maybe Miradorn, Breen,
Dominion- Vorta

Option 2. Approximate Map. Pre-arranged in that empires will start off in their respective quadrant as in Option 1, but the minor race locations will be random. So the Vulcans could be the Delta quadrant for instance.

Option 3. Random Map. All positions will be completely random. Quadrants probably won't overlay the galactic map by default.

I also added another structure for the Trill, the Hoobishan Baths, which boosts system morale.

I suppose you do have a point there. Not sure what you could use for the Night races planet. It's not very imaginative, but for the Hunters of Tosk, it could be Tosk 1, Tosk 2, etc. Hopefully something better can be thought up, but if not, you can at least use that.

Who was Grathon Tolar? The name sounds familar, but I cant place him at all.

bump

Isn't this a mistake? I thought the Dominion created the Vorta?

I don't know what other race could replace them though.

The dominion (according to weyoun) found the vorta who were nothing more than tree dwelling timid little mammals that werent even top of the food chain and transformed them into the vorta you see in ds9

thats just a legend though, so you could make the vorta a primitive race with a jungle homeworld. However you want a key race so you might need to forsake canon a little bit and make them as developed as the other races mentioned

Well we knew we would have to make some sacrifices for the game - making the Vorta into sentient monkey things (Hmmm...sounds familiar ) would be one of them.

I didn't know that about the Vorta, Mark. I thought the Dominion created the Vorta from scratch.

Cool they r the map options i suggested like half a year back!! never new theyd been added. Just one question, youve got the vorta as the minor the dominion recieve ?

Just like I said in my last post!

Mark explained it to me (Have a read ) and to be honest, who would you have to replace them?

I knew that already ds9 was my fav series. Infact i thaught they were so primitive they were neandertall like. It makes no sense to have the vorta as a race mainly because of the other map options, the dominion will have vorta structures etc etc long before they find the vorta on these options and the vorta may well be affiliated to someone else before then. Please reconsider vorta, give the dominion a race from within their space or just an extra system or something to balance it out.

I was actually wondering if the Dominion would need to have an 'extra' system to balance it out, like the other races?

They have many bonuses compared to the other races, with the Federation close behind.

When me and Mark did the calculations of Empire strengths, we both came up with the Dominion as the most powerful (By a considerable amount in some places)

Based on this, it might be an idea to not give them an extra system, if you want them to be balanced out.

Yeh I don't think it's any big deal having the Vorta as a minor race. It could perhaps be programmed that even on a random map the Vorta is a system very close to the Founders homeworld, maybe just a couple of sectors away, and immediately worshipful.



Sisko and Garak enlisted the services of Tolar in 'In The Pale Moonlight'. He forged a Cardassian data rod with a false record of secret Dominion war meetings where the invasion of Romulus was discussed.

I know things get changed as programming goes along, but months ago, there was a fairly lengthy debate on whether the Vorta should be a part of the Dominion from the begining of the game, and a group decision was that they should be in the Dominion from the start. I stand by this decision.

The only reason to have them seperated would be to give them to the Dominion on the cannon map. I dont know about anyone else, but I plan on playing a cannon map once, maybe twice, so I really dont want to see the vorta seperated for this reason.

Like matress said, the Dominion are shaping up to be the strongest empire as it is. So dont bother to give them a close minor for the cannon map. If you really thought that was unfair, just give them one of the Gamma quad races. The Dosi for example. Just dont make Vorta seperate from the Dominion. If someone wants, I could attempt to find the thread with the discussion about the vorta, I'm just not sure where it is right now.

Right! I knew he sounded familar. I even just saw that episode a little while ago.

If you made the vorta like you suggested in the last post, (always around the Dominion, and always worshipful) wouldnt all this does is make the Dominion have an ever greater advantage. The advantage of always having a minor race that is ready to join next door. It would be like always having Vulcan next door to earth. Please reconsider.

I to agree with this. please dont make them a minor please make them part of the dominion to start with.

i think its safe to say opinion is against the vorta being the dominions key minor.

the calculations myself and matress did are a rough but fair estimate of how the dominion would shape up in the game. i cant remember exactly which thread thats in but the dominion have significant advantages. This can be pinned back by not giving them the vorta as a free race ready to join, in which case making there expansion on the canon map via minors more difficult than other powers...

and dont forget the ketracel white discussion, an achillies heel if another player could bomb them

any other major suggestions i think should be put on ice until we play the beta and see if they are needed, the beta will reveal all

In BOTF the races were all spread out randomlly so the Vulcans could be in the Delta Quadrant! I prefer Option 1 but i'd like instead of just hexes you actually have a map with the Quadrant boundries on. Thats just cos i like everything canon

Although i dont want one want one completely overpowering team my main reason for not wanting vorta as a minor is that its not very cannon at all. You are right though about opinion being against vorta being a minor. Could one of the devs please let us know if they are being remooved or not ? cheers.

Well if the overwhelming popular opinion is that the Vorta are not to be a traditional minor and begin instead as a starting component of the Dominion then I guess that's the way it will be. The only thing is, on a canon map the Dominion (in the Gamma Quadrant) are at the disadvantage of only having some one third of the minor races to discover/conquer than the other powers to in their quadrant. It would mean removing one of their (only) 14 races.

I don't know yet, but it may well be programmed that the Dominion, once they've gained most of Gamma, will naturally expand into the Delta Quadrant. Whoever wins the battle for Alpha and Beta will then have a large sprawling empire to face in order to secure overall galactic domination. I don't know about you, but I got bored by turn 150 playing BoTF, I knew I'd win hands down, there were no challenges left.

I'd like nothing more than to see the Federation flag waving over the capitals of Romulus, Qo'noS and Cardassia, and then know I've got the entire second half of the galaxy to explore, discover and conquer, knowing that the Dominion would be the greatest challenge of all, but I'd have such a developed and powerful military backbone by this point I'd be well prepared to take them on. I'd like to be able to target the Vorta homeworld in order to take them out of the game, hence crippling the Founders severely. The biggest strength can sometimes be the biggest weakness.