'Ohhhh, Oi've got a bran' new comboine 'arvester, and it's got a big warp core...'

How about an option to share research between empires? Maybe it is already implemented, but this is what I greatly lacked in BOTF I. So some new options might be:

- Research agreements between empires - each would get every turn some additional points due to cooperation. Level of cooperation might be differentiated. More ideas would be good here

- Stealing research points from particular areas - and exactly that. not an event: "We lost x points, coz someone sabotaged us. Really, when playing as Feds: Romulan spy acquired recent energy research report. And e.g. 500 points added to Romulan accumulated points in their energy research

- Research sabotage - it actually is in BOTF I now. Might be in BOTF 2 more specific even

- Special spy mission. Might be expensive, but large gain. For example, some empire steals the whole advance, then it gets immediately currently researched level in that field. For this, it might be good to have specific spy ships or troops on the map. Kinda like in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. Spying has its flavour there.

- Donating research points, or even whole technologies to other empires. Selling technologies.

I think this stuff regarding research points might bring new strategy elements to the game. Cooperation between empires would then have additional element when a player would consider it beneficial for one more reason.

If it had a Warp Core it wouldn't be a Combine Harvester. Don't tell me we're having those in the game as Food Tech 1

I sencerely doubt it. Lvl 1 Bio-tech you can now construct bran' new type 1 comboine 'arvesters with flashy new warp cores (to quote Martocticvs)

That'd be pretty funny

Its A Flashy Warp Core is it now BIG WOOP

Do any of you guys actually notice when real ideas come around? NOPE would be the answer! 8O

However, since my holiday, I am a reformed man.

NOT!

Hehehe warp powered tractor! Harvest crops at the speed of light! Now all we need is a way to shovel them into my stomach at the speed of light...

...

Right then, serious stuff - mart7x5's ideas - (Did I say hello to you by the way? I can't remember you, so if I haven't said so, hi! Otherwise )

The research agreements is an idea that I think would really well, especially for the Federation and Romulans. It would also work well with the Cardassians and Dominion, but to a lesser extent.

I'm not sure if the Klingons would do this or not though. There was the supposed Warp tech and Starship hulls for Cloaking devicees and tech trade between the Klingons and Romulans, but this wasn't a joint research venture.

If this was to be in, I think SOM would need to say his piece on how it would affect them. (Eg. They can't do it, or they don't do it well, or they are ok at research ventures, or they are good at it, or they are the best at it)

For the stealing GRP, the game is gonna be more intelligent, so it won't be shown as bad as you seem to think it was. It's definitely a possibility to have it as a specific option, or to have it as a random event. Either way, this will need a leeetle more discussion.

Anyway, this ties in with sabotage. As far as I know, the intel stuff hasn't been finalised, so we can't make any solid decisions on such things yet.

Special spy missions...well this could be a random event (As in BOTF when you are doing particularly well) or a specific part of your intelligence operations. Decisions, decisions...again, we can't make them til intel is complete though...

Donations of tech would need to be handled carefully. The Federation wouldn't want to do it coz of the Prime Directive, the Romulans just wouldn't do it, the Klingons wouldn't bother unless they got something they really wanted out of it...It would need some fine balancing (Again, coz the game is gonna be more intelligent. If you could simply give all you tech away, the authenticity and feel of the game would be ruined)

Well, the Romulans did an exchange with the Klingons which is very similar, and where was the PD when Picard went to that Klingon tea-party and played Arbiter of Succession with them?

Besides, if you're giving technology to a warp cappable race, the PD shouldn't apply anyway.

Think of the downforce requirements on a warp capable tractor...

The question is - should different races get different bonuses from cresearch sharing?

A race that is weaker in reaserch would learn more from a advanced race than vice-versa, right?

But if they are bad at researching, how are they gonna be able to easily understand tech that is far beyond their capability? It sounds more like a disaster waiting to happen if you ask me.

You just have to think of races like the Pakled or the decimated one from Voyager that got Matter/Anti-matter tech from the Probe that Earth sent out into Space when it was still learning about Warp tech.

There is a reason for the Prime Directive afterall!

Being able to improve your relations with other races by gifting technology would certainly be good addition to the game though. I think if it was to be implemented, it should only be posible between races that are Allied/Affiliated. You wouldn't give tech to an enemy, afterall...well, unless you had suicidal tendencies... 8O

Perhaps a system where races that are 'normally' opposed to each other would receive greater benefits if tech was traded?

Learning from a traditional enemy would be a great boost to your research efforts, particularly if they are well ahead of you.

If such a system were to be in, it would then need to be balanced carefully, depending on map type.

The canon map would be the easiest, because things would be fairly static. Federation fights Klingons, Federation allies Klingons, and so on.

In the random map though, the game would need to recognise past war and treaties, to be able to work out which races are 'traditional' races.

I know, you guys probably think i'm rambling now, but I think this would be the best way of implementation. With only 6 weeks til the game's release though, I doubt it will be in, but it's a nice thought...

I think, that in original BOTF no possibility for trade of technologies takes away a lot of playability.

Prime Directive - as you CVN - 65 point, if you trade with a warp capable race, PD does not apply. And Federation might consider close cooperation in cases when for example Borg threatens some other Empire. On one side you can think of military help, but giving a technology is also very efficient. Would it unbalance the game? I would say the game would have more depth. Some additional aspects might be included, like each tech would have also for each civilization the understanding factor. E.g. understanding 100% would give the best benefits from a some technology, little "side effects" (side effects - new idea?). Then a tech could be traded only to other Empires when understanding would be 100%.

Then what would be the difference between:
- understanding 90% and having the tech
- and having 90% researched tech without having that tech yet?
The first might give technology benefits, but for example price of components might be higher. 90% understanding would slightly increase price, but 50% understanding would seriously increase the price. So when you plan to donate some high technology to some empire much lower in the tech tree, they could only receive it with low understanding. They would with time improve it.

Just some idea.

Romulans not willing to trade or donate technologies? There might be cases. Romulans might give some e.g. spying technology to some empire when that empire might aid them against common enemy. Such options might be programmed. The Romulan AI would be conditioned appropriately to their philosophy and would judge when to give a technology and when not.

Ok, 1st off, sure you have idiots like the Pakled who were FORCED (bascialy) into space, and would (just like the Uxali) hate the race that sent them that technology.

But, on the other side, think of United Earth in the 2150s. Some Humans hated Vulcans for denying them Warp 5 technology, while Humans were responsible enough for the techology (they proved it in Enterprise).
If the Vulcans had given the Humans the necessary technology, maybe the Federation would have been created even sooner...

Not saying anything about ideas and concepts, just wanted to state two examples of technology trading

A few things I found that I dont like:

~~~~
Computer-8
"by these by these new devices"
Should read:
"by these new devices"

Construction 9 - Electron Bonding
Electrons do not partake in "strong nuclear bonds". Electrons, in general, though with exception, do not partake in nuclear reactions. (Someone's gonna challenge this, I'm sure.)
Materials that are not, in effect, a single nucleus -- like "scrith" from ringworld -- would not even use "strong nuclear bonds". I suggest removing the word "nuclear" and reworking the sentance somewhat.

Energy 12 - Transphasics.
Anti-neutrinos are relatively well understood particals that are not likely to have the properties described. Don't use them. Use, instead, something like "virtual tachyons" or "supersymetric bosons" or something:
"Transphasic energy involves an highly unstable matrix of supersymetric bosons. When normal, baryonic matter is exposed to a field of supersymetric bosons, phased at variable mutation rates, an exponential energy increase is observed.The applications of this technology are vast, from power generation to weaponry, and even "stellarforming" - altering and modifying the nuclear forces within stars."

Propulsion 11 - Quantum Curvature
"may revolionise"
Should read:
"may revolutionize"

Weapons 2 - Phase Modulation
Are you sure you want it to read "pulsed protonic charge"? Not "pulsed photonic charge" or, perhaps, "pulsed bosonic charge"?
A proton is a nuclear partical and not very exotic. This implies phasers are streams of protons; basically a plasma emitter. Photons are light, meaning phasers are a special type of laser. Bosons are particals that transmit force: electomagnetism by photons; weak nuclear by W+,W- and Z0; strong nuclear by gluons; gravitation by gravitons. (Warp by "warp particals"? Blast Voyager, anyway!) By saying "bosons" instead of specifying which boson, it leaves the reader guessing what kind of boson you're emitting. And I like to leave people guessing.

Weapons 8 - Antimatter Compression
Do we have to use "isotons"? I know it's cannon but I hate it.

Weapons 10 - Quantum resonance
Isotons? Again? Must we?
~~~~

I'll leave my comments about knowledge sharing for later.

I'm inclined to agree with all your points there, ZDarby. You have much knowledge in such subjects.

Yikes! A lot of those names are absolutely terrible, the placement is just as bad, I can't imagine how bad the descriptions are. Warp drive needs to be the basic propulsion tech, as does anti-matter. Cochran had both for the Pheonix. I'll save them for tomarrow and write a correction to it all when I can think more clearly.

Thanks for the input Zdarby.

Computer 8 - fixed

Construction 9 (Electron Bonding), that was an old tech field description from BOTF 1, so I can hardly be blamed...

Transphasics. Point taken. I prefer tachyons to bosons, I keep reading it as supersymetric bosoms... Hmm. Supersymetric eh...

Propulsion 11. Fixed.

Weapons 2 - Phase Modulation and 'protons'... IIRC, the fictional science behind phasers which I actually researched came from the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, so I guess it's gotta stay. All letters of complaint to be sent to Mike Okuda....

Weapons 8 - Antimatter Compression. Do we have to use "isotons"? - Yuppers!

Weapons 10 - Quantum resonance. Isotons? Again? Must we?
Yuppers again!

Bio-Tech

Protomatter is not biological, it should go under Energy based science. It is supposed to be a form of matter.

1. Hydroponics
2. Bio-Synthetics
3. Bionics
7. Climate Control
8. Air Conversion
9. Biofiltration
10. Eco-Modification

These are all things we have now and shouldn't be on the list, at least not without some modification. The tech tree should really name things which are the beginning of new fields, rather the continuation of old fields. By the description of what each tech level brings for the Biotech tree, it would seem it should really be split, or even the entire tech tree reoganised into something that makes more sense. Keep in mind that by the time of Star Trek these are all old technologies and are acualy necesary in advance of space flight for space to be a reality.

Xenobiology should really be number one. Silicobiology should be around level 9.

1. Xenobiology - Study of alien life
2. Xenobiological Cross Breading - Cross breading of alien life
3. Bio-synthetics - Viable, whole, complex, life forms completely made from scratch down to even their form of information storage.
4. Geoforming - Changing one enviroment into any other enviroment
5. Organic Replication - Consistent successful replication of organic meterial through exotic application of transporters.
6. Metabiology - Study of incoporial life forms
7. Transmeterialbiology - Study of non-carbon based life forms

11. Living Matter Replication - Replication of living matterial

Energy

Cold Fusion should definatly not be on their, it's never been seen in Star Trek. Not only that, the evidence toward it being possible is tentative at best.

Subspace Physics really needs to be number 1 on the list since its related to a whole slew of increadably important technologies. Maybe it should even be the basic tech. Anyway, its description should be the study of subspace wave dynamics and how it interacts with the basic four dimensions. Study into this area of physics leads into the first subspace radios and sensors.

Matter Conversion, on its own it sounds like it is refering to replication technology, which would be great. But it is actualy refering to technology that doesn't exist in Star Trek and that would make technologies such as, fusion, anti-matter, and quantum singularities completely redundant. What the first half the description allows you to do is carry around a block of lead and turn it into energy, its energy density is higher than that of hydrogen since it is a denser meterial. The denser the meterial, the more energy you carry around, and since you can convert normal matter, you can keep the stuff in the equiviliant of a coal bunker, wihout the nasty trouble of coal fires, or explosion, as you would have with anti-matter. The second half the description is almost as evil as the Ultraconductor description but only in that it is completely meaningless.

EP Distribution's description is messed up, I think. YOu should be able to use room temperature plasma to conduct electrisity.

Anti-Matter Fusion, this one just doesn't sit well with me and the description just sounds wrong in several ways I can't point out.

Ultraconductors, oh God, that's a terrible one. The name alone indicates what it is and the description removes all doubt, it's a perpetual motion machine. It has an efficency greater than 100%.

Zero Point Energy and Virtual Particle creation actualy sort of go hand in hand, I just don't remember the specifics. Anyway, ZPE has never been used in Star Trek and current estimates put its energy value at something like 1X10-17 joules per meter^3.

Determinacy, it sounds like the Hysenburg Compensator, which would make it a very early technology, pre Enterprise in fact. It shouldn't be on the list.

That's enough for tonight.

{edit} I just thought of a good one for contruction, Stable Transplutonic Elements.

Protomatter is matter yes, but affects bio-technology, as it is required for terraforming - which in this game is a resource controlled and influenced by the field of Bio-tech. Certain structures and Colony ships are determined by Bio-tech.



Obviously this is true. But if we placed completely random invented sciences and technological fields, it will just sound well, stupid, and too contrived. Whereas Biolfiltration is not necessarily new by Tech 9 (and would be implemented even in Archers day etc), we can simply say that when this field is accomplished, it has reached its technolgical peak, or has just improved to a significant degree to enable a new appilcation, such as high-level quarantine fields, necessary for the Olympic Class Hospital Ship II (which is btw a prerequisite of Biofiltration).

We're not really writing a complex and canon book on future-tech or even Star Trek science, it's just a list of resources for a game,which involves the the outlining of certain 'areas' of technological fields which influence and apply themselves to the pre-determined structures and ships which are made available by them. It doesn't really need to make perfect sense. And besides, most of the ones you've highlighted come from the first game, and worked well enough there.



er, well Fusion is the actual power source for much of a starship's systems, including the impulse drive.



Yes, it is. Perhaps I should reword it to better emphasize that ths system involves the manipulation and transference of matter into other forms of matter.



I dont know about that, the only plasma I know about from Star Trek is not at room temperature, hence its need for strictly controlled containment.



That's a re-use from the first game.



Again, a re-use from the first game. Its pointless to quibble over the fictional technology and science of a fictional future world. It doesn't have to make any scientific sense to us whatsover, and it would be impossible to make it so. In fact, much of it doesn't make any sense at all, because it's made up and nonsensical, so who cares.



Zero Point energy has been used and mentioned in Star Trek. It's involved with Quantum torpedoes. Besides, I needed to create another entry for Energy, and this fitted the bill.



Another re-use from the first game. I agree, it does sound like the Heisenberg Compensator, and should come earlier, but seeing as its fictional anyway, we could just say it's related to something else.








Each field has a logical reason for its presence.

This has probably been picked through before but:

We should try to make the game as Canon as possible with as few "extras" as we can. Using random names for Technological breakthroughs sounds like a waste of time to me anyway. And these steps must be gradual rather than being able to pay credits for a tech level three above what you've got already.

Actually, the scientist who gave it the name was "Heisenberg", that's something as a german I *must* insist on

Additionally let me tell you the german name of the real theory this fictional compensator is based on:

"Heisenberg'sche Unschärferelation"

So it does actualy mean something then

If it gets a mentioned it should be in at Computer Tech 1 or something..

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, I believe. I think it's something to do with the probabilities of predicting the location and behaviour of particles, or something to that effect.

Sounds more like a Phaser principle to me

It basically states that it is impossible to know the exact location of a particle at any point in time, but you can predict where it is likely to be...

Thanks, don't think i'll make a scientist for a few years

No, it states it is impossible to know about the both aspects at the same time: You cannot gain knowledge of it's status (the quantum-states like spin, couriosity etc.) *and* the movement/direction at the same time. It also states you *can* have an exact measurement of one of these two attributes, but only under the presumption that *afterwards* this attribute is undefined due to the "touch" of the measurement-quantum[1].

[1] The difficulty that Heisenberg explained with his theory was that the particle used to determine the quantum's state inevitebly has an influence on the further status because it has a mass that is supposedly about the same value which means the contact between the both quantums also changes both quantum's status - that's the way you can conclude about the status the tested quantum had before the measurement through the knowledge of the initial status of the measurement-quantum[2].

[2] Actually at this point the theory works as well: From the point you calibrate the measurement-quantum (with the attributes you want it to have to be able to back-conclude after the collision) it has a certain *chance* of behaving the way it should - *but* it *can* change the supposed status "on the way" to the dedicated collision so there is the "rest" of uncertainty.


Well, I hope someone understood this, I'll make sure I can explain this better once I start my physics study...

Did you get that off the top of your head?

Yes, quite right - I distilled it a little too much

I suppose there's the possibility of a way to counter the affect of taking the measurement... however chaos is called in to play at that point... and things become too complicated to think about

Am i going to have a Science degree by the end of this?

Honestly, yes. Additionaly, I had to translate it

Well, just to repeat: I'm going to become a (great) physicist. So I'd better know at least the description of the effect. I admit I can't yet calculate it, but I'm sure I will, once I'm at university.