Wow, wow, wow.. oh and did I say Wow?

You really have captured the spirit of BOTF! I do have a few questions tho... I said I would

First in the menu where you select galaxy size etc the sub menu appears BEHIND the first menu, I'm sure are aware if this tho, it can't just be on my computer.

Ok this is longer than I originally intended but the major point is at the bottom, I really think it is worth considering from both a gaming point of view, but also as a 'This actually happens in Star Trek' point of view.

One of the first things I did note is that you do not get a system summary when you put the mouse over a system like you did on BOTF, are you looking into this would be very helpful especially with population, dilithium, ground combat info.

Speaking of ground combat, I assume this hasn't been introduced yet?

The biggest flaw though and it is a flaw even at this stage of development, the minor races are WAY too large at the start of the game AND they are too easy to get them to be members, no tributes needed or anything! Why waste resources on colony ships when you can get a ready made 100 population system in the same time it takes to get a 40 pop system starting from scratch?

Also are you going to introduce a method of adding credits/resources when negotiating treaties? If not, why not? Its only logical!

Assume you are still working on starting structures and ships? Bit annoying having to build shipyard on first turn and have no ships to send off.

MAIN POINT - RE: Resources

Why the need for all the different resources? Credits, what are they for? Are you going to add a buy building/ship function? But too be honest that was one of the flaws to BOTF, get lots of money then just buy what you needed... hardily realistic for the federation to just buy a brand new Galaxy class starship.

I like the dilithium accumilating, deuranium, raw materials... all very good ideas, but officers... can't for the life of me work out how that works... no info on ship stats about it either.
Isn't it a little bit compilated having 5 different resources? Most TBS/RTS games use 2 at the most. As I said wouldn't just those 3 surfice?

Bare in mind that Voyager had enough fuel on board to last several years at warp 8. Galaxy class ships where fitted with many anti-matter storage pods, Romulan warbirds have artificial sigularities as energy sources.. so why the need for a maintanence cost? If anything the only thing that ever needs replacing is the dilithium crystals themselves.

This is what I would have in mind... dilithium refinary would extract +5 to +10 dilithium per turn, all ships would have maintanence cost of 1 dilithium per turn (2 for command ships late on) so limiting the amount of ships you can have to 5-10 ships per system with dilithium, making dilithium a HUGELY important comodity worth going to war over even if the system only has max pop 25. The only problem I can think of for this idea is stockpiling dilithium, building more ships than you can maintain and eventually having a dilithium defecit, which shouldn't be possible. The solution to this would be that ships will incur a warp core breach if they cannot be maintained. But I guess that would be hard to program.

My main point is why the need for credits? Feds never used credits! Trade routes should be for deuranium/raw materials. But the dilithium needed for ship maintenance as well as construction would add so much to the game and also give a chance for a weeker enemy to strike dilithium mines and in doing so cripple the opposing fleet if they do not have any reserves.

What do you think?

Re: menu glitch - I have XP SP3, I've only loaded the game once so will let you know if it happens again

I did have slight problems installing .Net framework. Installed 2.0 and 3.0 fine, 3.5 had a win32 error, but 3.5 SP1 worked fine without installing 3.5 - could this be part of the problem?

Re: Credits - What I actually meant was trading outside the federation, e.g. 'stable wormhole' negotiations, but I can admit is it a much simplier way than dilithium control. It was just a thought to add realism... I read the forum notes after I posted that and I suppose that is an example of adding realism, but at a cost - i.e. difficult to impliment.
I do think that dilithium systems NEED to have more importance than they did in BOTF - It was highly unlikely that you wouldn't have more dilithium than systems able to produce ships.
I'm sure tho' that can explored through testing the current system i.e. tweeking the amount of dilithium required to build ships etc
I will have a look at BOTE, but without the ST theme does it still have the same appeal? By that I mean if BOTF was the same game but not using star trek would we even be having this converstaion?

Oh just another thing. I have seen it mentioned that there is no manual, and such a manual would need constant updating. However I do believe that one well be useful, especially to ppl like me who have only just downloaded, or those who will be downloading after extra features have been added.

I am a part time journalist and so writing skills are adequate and part-time means I have plenty of time on my hands So if you would like me to make a start on a manual I would be all to happy to oblige. I would do it in word at first so it would extremily editable by anyone really.

Let me know what you think and if you want me to plow ahead I'll start a thread on what sort of stuff should go in... background, ordering of topics, screenshots etc
If you decide to let me start this then I can email you updates which you can put up for download, then, just incase I get busy, it would be easy for someone else to take up the reigns if neccesary.

sorry, i can`t down it - admin is strict & channel is low.. but as soon as you add at least an ai, i woul get it no matter what)... so... excuse my lang. & mistakes..

ground combat
klingons are strong and furious it`s their advantage.
but they lack discipline and they ain`t too smart...
their tecnology preference is qite rude...

so... ground combat MUST have at least these multipliers:
1 race physicall (genetically modifications? implants?)
2 officers & crew - expirience ( & level. in existing military & training structures/ attaking ships)
3 race tecnological level (martial arts in here? weapons, armor, shields... droids?)
4 defensive & offesive structures
5 population (morale is here?)

ship maintenance costs
yes. must have feature. but!most part of the maintenance of later era`s - is crew`s price (& scientists & etc...) & repair costs (repairing some % of damage is automatic, but it still HAS to be repaired with perfect materials ( if ship is HUGE it sertanly has some spare parts but in shypyards repairs would be faster & more efficient))
don`t make a fleet size rectriction from that. it will cost `ya, but don`t be too hard! resources - and their results - are VERY HARD to get - it is real problem ( don`t forget to add this in difficulty tweak))

planetary defenses - shields, turrets, fleets on the orbit - they WILL save population (at least it`s smallest part) from ANY disaster, if you won`t hesitate (please!!)

romulan`s cloaks gives them HUGE advantage. that is why their ships is SO deadly. not because of their sensors, weapons or etc... it`s hard to admit, but true... but even outposts won`t crack best ship`s cloack instantly - huge reconnaisanse & espionage & chanse for a strike!
klingon`s society is degradating - with officers expirience - untill the very end of the war with the federation (one of the reasons why fed`s could survive, as i see it) so prices for everything, that is not a food or not for killing - is higher, than it should.
and PLEASE! command ships of ANY race can execute ANY common tasks - patrol, raid, planetary bombardment, scan, explore, intercept, etc..
and PLEASE! a colonization ships CAN DO MIRACLES!! time & resources & time & resources & etc... & i would get a big M planet from NOWHERE right where i want it))
and PLEASE! i don`t care if a turn takes 4-40 min to count! i wanna HUGE galaxies!!! 5kx5k or even x10 bigger))

borg... they are ultimate race. no one should be able to defet them alone!!! that is why allies are nessesary

damage control & tactical encounters
you have to make it real good! disperse useful abilities throught tine, races and ships..
give ability to choose what system(s) of what (exacly\type\group) enemy ship to attak... to disable or to destroy, accept comms? negitiations? make it optional, coz it would take a lot of time!! make it FUN!! i want to destroy their engines, weapons, shields and cloak - wait few turns when help for distress call would arrive - and take them out too))
(hey! if no one knows, that i killed them, why the fact that they were my allies would bother enyoune? the`re just gone missing! no penalty to relations!!))

AI & diplomacy & intel
make ai fear)) give me a chance to proove them, that i will exterminate them all, if they won`t obey))
give some of them a courage to die in a desperate fight, but a cowardice to prey for mercy for the thers)) make a demand to surrender))
make me an option to slowly exterminate native on conquered world (make the rebellion STRONGER))
give an option of pointed planetary borbardmet ( no\almost no damage if not percise) - only military or govement installations - would be VERY useful, if you trying to free subjuged system...
also.. PLEASE make fights for systems - going by planet to planet - by the number of ships - with ability to take only part of the system and then go quet and support rebellion - it would be fun)) and make it take a few turns!! to give allys time to react on that)) (that` where diplomacy would be rquired))
make EXTREME difficulty level - every turn - there`s an ASS (a problem, i mean)) (disiese, security breach, deep space hostile alien encountered, metheorite strike...)) (make it an optional tweak in gameplay tweaks - for player to be able to turn it on\off in a metter of few turns according to main difficulty level))
make intelligense MORE customizable than it was in botf - if i want an president assassination - i would get it! (time & money & intel points), and if i want to find a bastard that is making me look bad - i would!! and would give the evidence, or sell it.. and more intel on the affairs of the others!! the information has it`s price!! so i can bought almost any data or EVIDENCE that i would need))

Sometime after it's founding the Feds created the "Federation Credit" what or how it is used is a mystery to us causal Trekkies. I imagine it was used between them to create a commonality to commerce and then later expanded for use outside the Federation.

You can't have 100 different economies with 100 different currencies and maintain fair trade over 8,000 ly!

It is however CANON since Kirk's time (Uhura buys a Tribble from Cyrano Jones remember?).

Aside from poker, Riker bargins for the "Barzin Wormhole" and amoung the various raw resources he offers X amount of "Federation Credits", 500k IIRC.

On DS9 many people buy drinks at Quark's with Fed credits (despite his grumblings)...

The Federation Credit is a unit of energy for replication I think. It's bartered mainly to NON-Federation worlds for things the Feds want but can't produce quickly/easily. The person who gains them redeems them from industrial replicators with Fed supervision I would imagine.

Starfleet Personnel get free bennies, but accumulate a monthly ration of Fed Credits.

I'm not 100% sure about that yet, but that's what I hope will eventually be possible. I don't know how the game will respond regarding transfering control of the ships though, because the AI is still under construction. We'll have to wait and see what Mike says about this. I doubt an AI that works correctly would lose any ships in this way though, unless you destroyed some enemy refuel depots/bases/shipyards, which would always be a possibility...hmm, this point will need more discussion.

Towing ships won't be easy though. Ships that are towing others will only be able to move one sector per turn, making them targets for enemy attacks - and ships that are dead in the water won't be much use in combat. Rescue ships will also run the risk of becoming stranded themselves if they run out of fuel too...

starbases, outposts, sensor arrays, deep space stations - installations of a communications - they have a range limits - so: ships accumulating research data (must have sensors, that is suited for pointed anomaly, scientists on board), that is out of comm range - won`t give that data to main database, untill they would get in this range. furthermore: AI ships, that encounters something, being out of comm range - won`t report that to AI... untill ship would return.... SO: you CAN`t control your ships diectly, while the`re out of comm range - you give ship an order and it goes an tries to commit it, after sucsess or failure ship automatically returns (trying, at least, if it can, officers ain`t going crayzy, etc.)to comm range, to report. maybe add a +1 delay of orders&info delivery per out-of-comm-range cell?

maybe add a pribability of rouge planets, asteroids, nova`s, etc. (generic, while the game is played)
maybe add a pribability of pirates? in any planetary system... but it would be nessesary to create a whole fleet at least for them & all others misc events (courriers, spies, etc..)
maybe add a campaign missions? i mean inside a game you can build a HERO SHIP (the price must be HUGE), to use it co complete some tasks - deliver diplomacy letters, or etc.. - if a mission would be succsesseful - you get bonus - credits, positive diplomatic relations shift, morale, resources, or etc... but if you fail... furtheremore - if you loose hero ship... your guess is right)) it would be a disaster))

I'm not a programmer so don't know how these things work, but I imagine implementing these control reductions would be a programming nightmare. We'll have to wait and see what Mike says about them, but I doubt he would implement it. Like I said though, i'm not a programmer so I could easily be wrong.

As for the other things you mentioned...most of them already have been or will be implemented.

Rogue planets are already in the game as a class of planet. They will be exceedingly rare (As will Demon and Crystalline planets), and in fact I haven't ever seen one appear in the game; i'm therefore not sure if Mike has yet implemented the possiility of encountering Rogue planets in otherwise empty sectors. They are definitely in as a class type though.

Asteroids are also already in - just look at the bottom of the screen in the Sol system and you'll see the Asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter.

I've also come up with a massive list of random events for the game; Supernovas are one of the randoms i've put in. This list is only speculative though, and was designed to be a list of everything that *could* be in the game, rather than a list of of everything that will. I'm not even sure if Mike has looked at the list yet, and i've been working on it for almost three years now. (Although admittedly I haven't worked on it so far this year) Pirates are another random event that i've put in the game.

As for campaign missions, these have been talked about before, but nothing concrete was decided. We're hoping to create a canonish Trek map for people to play which will come as a loadable .sav file with the game, but that's the closest to campaigns that we've got. We might even eventually make a Klingon civil war/Duras, a Voyager/Delta Quadrant one, or other special maps, but those will be a long while off. Specifically having special missions would need to be discussed in a LOT more detail - and that's assuming Mike actually likes the idea and programs the game to allow for them.

Hero ships have also been talked about. You will be able to set flagships, but they won't have anything special about them. They will have the same stats as any other ship. Flagships are more a custom feature than a gameplay feature.

Diplomatic tasks will sort of be in the game. Whilst it definitely hasn't been decided on yet, we're hoping to have things like plagues, capturing advanced enemy ships, special joint research projects, and the like in the game. Precisely if/how these will be implemented will be down to Mike, but *if* they are in the game, they will come with major political/diplomatic points - both positive and negative. For instance, sending a Hospital ship to cure an enemy planet of a plague would earn you big favour points with that race - but conversely ignoring their pleas for help, or even purposely spreading the plage (Which may be possible if it is implemented) would seriously strain diplomatic ties.

The game is still in an early pre-alpha stage - you can't even choose to play as the other Empires in single-player mode yet (But they have been implemented), so there is still a LOT of work to be done on the game. Some features may change in the future, some will be dropped, and others will be added. It'll be a long time before the game is "complete", so you're just going to have to wait like the rest of us. Posting on the forums is a good way of arguing for your points and ideas though. I should know, i've got the highest post count and plenty of my ideas are in the game.
[/end brag]

The hospital ships are already in the game, so I *assume* that plagues will be in. Population health is in afterall as a stat, so why have health and health-improving buildings if there is no disease?

Asteroids and Comet strikes are both in my list of random events (Comet strikes are much more serious in effect) because even though what you say is likely to happen, you won't always have a ship in the system. And I think I can remember an episode of TNG where the Enterprise had difficulty in stopping an Asteroid on its own, even though it did finally manage it.

I suppose we could come up with other ways to countermeasure it - Planetary Shields, Orbital Batteries/Weapon platforms etc should be able to deal with them, but that's only if Mike programs it so and adds new options into the editor. The only alternative is to simply not have the randoms in the game in the first place.

Like I said though, a lot of stuff hasn't been programmed in yet, so we'll just have to wait and see what Mike decides to implement or scrap.

I know Mikes a busy man... so I think Ill suggest this to him about this after The AI is done. You never know he might like the idea .

I wonder how far along the game is... especially The AI.

Of all the work to be completed - AI, Tactical Battle Interface, Diplomacy, Beta testing - I would guess... on a scale from 1 to 10 ... Supremacy is 6.

Now For Me... I consider Supremacy Ready To Play once The AI Is developed. Once that day comes... I really wont care about the balancing, tactical battles, bugs, etc.

Mike You Are The Man ! Long Live Supremacy ... Cannot wait

Just incase you didn't notice, I finished the updater.

viewtopic.php?p=48890#p48890

Thanks Overlord

Yes Ford, Mike is the man.

On a scale of 1-10, I would rank Supremacy's "completeness" at around 3.5/10. There's still a whole lot of work to be done . As far as completeness towards the first "truly playable" milestone (first draft AI, working diplomacy, and victory conditions), it's probably around 6/10 at the moment, so your guess is pretty accurate .

I have a quick question i hope that can easily be answered. Then again, i should make it two. First, about how often are their updates? Second, when it updates, does it tell/show you that it is updating or does it just update without showing any message except the one in the updater log?

I made an improvement to the update process but apparently Mike does not want to use this.
You can get it here: viewtopic.php?p=48890#p48890

Ok i dont mean to be a d**k i only found this site recently but the download was posted in 2006 and there is still no AI or combat? Is it ever going to be finished of course i can understand your busy but im sure people are going to lose interest if the game takes too long.

The download for the game is much more recent than that, eraldo - you probably clicked an old link. To download the game, go to the very first post of this very thread - the download link is maintained there and is updated whenever there is a major game update released.

Mike releases smaller updates on a much more regular basis however. The game has a built in auto-updater that runs every time you load the game. It will check your files against those on the server, and if there are any differences between your files and those on the server (This unfortunately includes mods at the moment ), the game will notify you of the update and ask if you want to download it. Once complete, the game will need to close - but it will then reload itself.

It is true there is currently no AI or combat, but Mike is currently working on an AI. We were hoping that a very early version of the AI would be ready by christmas, but Mike has been exceptionally busy with work and hasn't been able to meet that deadline. He will release a working version as soon as he can, but we can't say when that will be i'm afraid. Remember, we're all fans of the game and are not being paid to do this. We're doing all the work in our spare time as and when we can - Mike included.

As for combat, that's going to be the very last implemented part of the game for a number of reasons. Getting a combat system to work correctly is extremely complex, and any time that Mike spends on working on the combat system is time taken away from programming other, more important things. So the combat system is instead being worked on by CdrWolfe. However, because the game is constantly being updated, there is no guarantee it will be compatible with the final version of Supremacy, so it won't be tied into the game any time soon. Instead, once he has finished work on the game, Mike will take what Wolfe has created, and will then modify it as necessary to make it work.

To get the combat system on people's computers for testing purposes, Wolfe has released a very early stand-alone version of the combat system. By having people use it, we can identify incompatibility problems etc early on and fix them before it is implemented in the game. You can find the combat system in the downloads BOTF2 combat system section of our portal, I can't give you the direct download link because you need to log into the portal before you can access the download section i'm afraid. You will need to sign up there separately to these forums if you haven't already done so. That portal gives you access to the different subdomains that we run here, but we haven't yet figured out how to bridge the domains so you need a separate login for each domain. Sorry about that.

Wolfe and Mike would both love to receive feedback about their respective programs, so if you have any praise, constructive criticisms, or bug reports, please post about them. BOTF2 is a community effort that relies on the input of everyone.

By the way, please try to refrain from using bad language; we have kids on the forums. As an admin, I have to mention these things and act on them. I edited your post. I hope you understand.

Welcome to the forums.

As a small group of fans working only in our free time on one is more frustrated than we are. Would you like to help?

1 in BOTF i was able to choose stations in sectors by clicking on hteir icons in sector in map, so was it with ships. it was faster.
2 i don`t undrestand, why you removed "orders" button (for the ships, near "redeploy")
3 after download i was forced to change A LOT of things in stats with editor, before i was able to do anything! (please! at least make "sort by race" option in editor! shipyards efficiency was at 0%)
4 maybe stats files could be created and updated in different tread? in shure be faster.
5 when a tech jump is commited, sometimes i loose ability to build ships of a previous tech level (when shypyard ain`t upgraded yet, to produce newer ships)

Sorting by race is not an option in the editor because each object could exist in more than one race's tech tree. Objects are not bound to a single race.

take a look at Ultimate Editor: there a two options - "build by" & "build ONLY by" - that solves problem ain`t it? ). but! don`t you think, that single stats buliding for multiplie races would cause problems with power balancing?
also i didn`t found "build/upgrade" command for builder ship in system with outpost mk1, when tech is lvl 11
how about creating prototype ships with tech from different races? (install a cloak on souvereign, for ex.) (stupid idea, i know... but still.. SO intresting..) even more.. why don`t give an ability to proceed with native member tech tree, when you get control? (like conquer klingons and get ability to build their ships... balancing headache?)
(my english is horrible, so, please, try to keep your mind in one piece))

Ultimate Editor? that's a botf1 tool..