Well, minors which expand that slowly would add even less value to the game--it'd basically be a novelty feature. The implementation cost, however, remains high.

I agree with amon, but it's your call, I'm just wandering one thing, is it simply AI problem or are they currently hard-coded to have only one system?

Games would also be more vulnerable to chance. One empire could get only non-expanding minors surrounding it, and another one only expanding ones. It could create assimetries like this one, which would affect gameplay for some of the players more than for others.
Slow expanding minors would most likely not have where to expand to, especially with Many minors settings. Smaller maps would also not favor expansion of minors.

I agree to some extent. But assimetries happen all the time. For example, if you're let's say and your empire is close to the and you eventually go to war with them which effects you greatly, while, let's say on the other side of the galaxy in the same time expand with no problems from their neighbours, because they meet them 30 turns later. Another example is the appearance of Borg which will cripple some empires more than others, based on where they spawn. What i want to say is that assimetries, chanses, and random stuff are what makes gameplay more diverse and interesting, and sometimes more challenging.
But i'm ok with scrap of the expanding minors if it's too hard to make it happen. I know the game will rock anyways!

Unless they're surounding you from every side (which would probably be because you allowed it to happen), one other empire in the vicinity will not hamper your expansion.
My point was not about chance. Empires in the vicinity and the Borg are expected in the game. My point was that expanding minors might increase those assimetries, and in the extreme that is not good for the game.

It's first and foremost a gameplay problem: expanding minors compromise the game mechanics (see my earlier remarks), and they introduce too much volatility (see Iceman's remarks). While it would also create more work on the AI front, that is not especially damning in and of itself. The gameplay issues, however, make it very hard to justify that extra work, as I suspect most players would end up switching the feature off anyway.

Believe me when I say that I only came to this decision after very deep analysis of the feature, its impact, and its costs. There are several smaller issues related to expanding minors that I haven't mentioned. It's not really worth getting into the little issues, as the big issues render them somewhat moot.

Guys this is a really good game. I've been waiting for a new version of BOTF to come out for ages! Can't wait to play it with the other empires activated. It works so much better with the tech tree, and general all-round play. Really exciting.

Thanks for clearing that up Mike.

Welcom IndieC

Wow, I never thought I would see the day where I could look at a fresh looking BOTF that doesn't slow down or crash every few turns... I have followed various attempts but was amazed at how far you guys have come! I'm a loner here so I am hoping for AI soon so I can play against the computer, really great job though.

My comments as requested:
Don't know if a random Borg cube comes every once and a while or not but I liked that in the original
Again, random events I hated the ones that turned my plants into inhospitable environments, after a long game too many planets would have had something bad happen to them, please don't add that

My critique
I like the drop down menu for systems, however, I couldn't use my arrows to change to the next system for quick building, would be nice to have that
Even better would be a upgrade all, to upgrade all my type X whatever to the next level, I hate it when I have a large empire where I need to do this on so many worlds over and over
I bet it's an AI thing but making 3rd party races ally with me was really easy
Star Trek music would be awesome

I liked
The look and feel, the interface is nice and easy to learn for a long time BotF player
Dominion included, yay!
Stability, I know there isn't really an AI yet but I haven't had a crash after 200 turns. I just wish there was an AI so I could play a game through

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate this! I wish I could help develop it but I'm no programmer

You will see that. They will turn up in the most powerful empire first. If you leave them alone you will see Borg planets by assimilation. As the game progresses they return in greater force. I wish you could program as well but your feedback is also helpful.

Welcome DarExc

Hey DarExc, welcome to the forums!

We still plan on having random events in the game. In fact we plan on having a lot more. And yes, the Borg Cubes will be in. And so will Borg Probes, Spheres, and Diamonds! But yes, bad planet changes are also in too. And so will good planet changes. And a whole lot more besides. Perhaps we could eventually add a customisable list so players could pick-and-choose which randoms they want to actually be active...might be an idea worth thinking about.

Anyways, have a look at the Random Events and let us know what you think.

Note 1: that link has a lot of images; it may take a long time to load and will use a chunk of your bandwidth.
Note 2: the list is not a definitive, final list. Randoms may change, be removed, or may be added over time.
Note 3: the random events list is more of a wish-list than anything. Some parts, for example the anti-Borg alliance bit in the Borg one, are unlikely to happen. But we will be having Borg invasions of some kind at the very least lol.

That can easily be changed, we'll pass it on to Mike for consideration. We're always looking out for keyboard shortcut suggestions. We're all gamers afterall, we feel the same way!

We have something even better planned. How would you like your systems to build themselves? We're planning to have a "system governor" option that would automatically make decisions on what to build in a system and then build them for you. And you can decide which systems will automate on an individual basis, or you could simply decide to automate a particular type of system, for example new colonies. You'll also be able to set rules for the governor to follow, for example following a specific build list order that you set yourself; or telling it to concentrate on research production; or to build ships, and so on.

Yes, it is an AI thing. Because there is NO AI. The AI will be the single most complicated part of the game to program. Mike needs to lay the groundwork in the game for the AI to be implemented first before he can even start programming it. So when you play the game at the moment, you're only playing against yourself. Note that the online multiplayer function does work though, although since you can't invade systems or engage in combat, and there are no victory conditions at all, there's not really much to do against other players. People usually decide to just colonise as much of the galaxy as they can and the winner is the one with the most systems at the end. We've already implemented system invasions in the developer-only build of the game though, so you can look forward to that in the next update.

Already working on that. Check out our Working Library of music.

Expect more of the same in future updates. The interface has always been one of Mikes' main concerns. The cleaner and easier to use it is, the happier he is.

Not everyone wanted the Dominion to replace the Ferengi though. The Ferengi are still in as a minor race (And a particularly powerful/important one at that), but with a few minor changes to the game files, you can actually play as any of the minor races. I've posted step-by-step instructions on how to do this Here if you want to give it a go.

Well that's good to hear. But there are instabilities in the release version of the game. For example, building stations will cause the game to crash. The release version of the game is two-and-a-half years old though, so the version of the game we're working on is vastly different. When we finally do release the next update, we'll be asking people to report crashes and bugs so we can fix them. As for the AI, see my above comment.

Programming isn't the only available job, although it is the job we're most in need of help with. Check out the Jobs And Positions Section Of The Forums if you want to see what jobs you might be able to help with.

Thanks for the reply, wow, a lot of random events! I like how they tie into the various series! The Borg coming sounds exciting and it sounds like you have the right ideas for it. Looking at the jobs, might be able to help with some of the descriptions, otherwise, I am not very creative, my German isn't that great and my French is worse I know I built a starbase or outpost and it worked fine, maybe I didn't build the right thing.

I think having expanding minors would offer unique gameplay that helps carve Supremacy away from the rest of the 4x arena besides the theme.

From what I've read there are 2 concerns with minors:

1) The fear that minor races can expand to envelope and surround the player creating situations where a player is "trapped" and isolated by minor empires.


My three responses:
A) So what? If you don't like the map, regen. I think it would be interesting to be isolated from the rest of the galaxy in a single player game, having to devote your entire opening game to appeasing a mighty galatic power just so you can move through their borders seems like engaging and dynamic gameplay. This is no different then in BotF when you get stuck in between a couple of hard AI's that envelope you in a small map. It happens. As long as the player has some hope of breaking out of it (i.e. devoting all of their energy to diplomacy and/or military) and breaking out one way or the other.

B) Using map generation parameters to ensure that expanding AI's are limited in size.

C) Give minor races vastly reduced territory so their territory is only the planets they colonize allowing plenty of "wiggle room" for players to go through with the hand wave of "space is 3d and minor empires can't monitor their borders like major empires can"


2) Minor race empires become too strong to absorb and thus reduce the value of minor races.

My three responses

A) I would say that actually increases the value of mergable races. Once a race grows too strong it can become at best an ally and at worst another obstacle in the road for power. I like this idea far better then the current "powerup" method where minor races exist almost solely to be conquered. While this works for some races, for others like the Breen or Gorn it trashes both canon and the fun factor because not only are they only from one planet, they can have a mighty fleet that doesn't do anything, just waiting to be absorbed by the Federation.

I think it would be fun if minor races were a credible threat in the early game, so it's not just klingons and cardassians but also vulcan, breen, and gorn warships. Once you've developed enough technologically and with infastructure then they should become less and less annoying and eventually you can conquer them or absorb them as necessary.

B) If diplomacy options were improved, then there could be ways to get around stubborn minor races. Perhaps espionage actions can be used to create "false flag" situations where they think they're under attack and only you can stop it. Or a more Cardassian/Romulan way of replacing their leaders with sleeper agents. Espionage could be a way of getting powerful nations to come to terms. Having long standing peace with a minor race should improve their opinion of you, perhaps to the point of absorbing if they're a peaceful race like the Vulcan. Meanwhile warrior races like the Breen or Gorn should be impressed if you win mighty space battles and might eventually be persuaded enough to join their empire.

Again, the beauty of having more powerful minor races is that they can become more imporant in the end game. By the end of BotF, when you've got tons of developed planets minor races are not that noticable (unless they have OP'd structures). The only real benefit is that they tend to have more people and structures then a colonized world but the real impact is gone when you've got dozens of better worlds already.

But having mighty minor race empires suddenly change allegiance in the end game can be massive. An opponent might be down to their last couple of planets when all of a sudden, a 10-system minor race joins them and they're back into the fight. You could orchestrate a blitzkrieg by having a minor race on a different adjacent side to an opponent join you and getting around their front line defences to strike at their juicy industrial worlds.

Getting minor races would continue to be a driving objective throughout the game (again beyond OP'd structures).

C) It creates a game with more replayability. Not only do you have major races developing in different ways, but strong minor races can alter the landscape as well.

The thing you said that interests me the most is this:



I think having a method to conquer via espionage to be very intriguing. I can imagine having so many officials bribed that it would be easy to come in an take over (or control like a puppet government) or form alliances; so many dirty secrets held over ministers that unopposed requests would be a breeze or simply having the leaders completely replaced with sleeper agents, or imposters (shapechangers, genetically altered spies, androids, holograms, etc.). Even if this was limited to minor races I think it would be a fun option to have. Klingons destroy and capture, the federation negotiates, the Romulans infiltrate, the Dominion replace or conquer, etc.

Heck depending on how difficult the espionage missions are, how long they take, how mush risk they have and how easy they are to stop, I could see it even being a method of victory over major powers (or maybe in a reduced fashion, such as 1 to X number of systems decide to separate and join the Romulans for example.). Maybe some end game espionage tech unlocks the option to deploy a massively comprehensive espionage effort to cause a hostile takeover of ABC Minor/Major Empire, this action will take at least X turns and Y resources to complete and may not be successful, other factors may delay or completely compromise our efforts. Risks would be being caught would certainly cause a declaration of war in response, probably some negatives across the board to all relations (unless those races approve of such methods), you would loose the time, agents and resources spent, and immediate future attempts would be much more difficult. Something like a partial success result would be possible too such as: “Our agents have been discovered and failed to bend our enemies to our will but instead we have incited civil war across their worlds, they no longer trust themselves. Defeating them now should be much easier in this chaos.” (Imagine Earth if 10-15 heads of states and/or their direct aids/2nds-in-command were replaced by alien imposters, even if they couldn’t control the planet as a whole they could cause some pretty nasty damage and confusion.)

Anyways just some brainstormed ideas that praguepride statements got be thinking about

I like the idea!

Hello all. I really like the idea of ​​a customizable list of random events, in fact, for my part I do not like random events that cause the destruction of a planet or population.

So, then this leaves out the Borg, the Crystalline Entity, random singularities passing through a system, a pissed off Q, Tribbles, the Doomsday machine, the Genesis Device, the Planet killer, the Xindi superweapon, the Species 8472 energy focusing ship, ie most interesting phenomena/entities a player would have to deal with. Should I go on?

Edit: I forgot one of the most interesting ones: A moon blowing up due to excessive dilithium mining (eg Praxis)

Would be like botf1 in that you can disable random events if you so wish. Or probably mod it if you fancied so that some random events you dont like can be removed.

Yes, you will be able to disable them, but my point was that then you are missing most of the fun

The random events that damaged planets were always a bug bear for me. To me the thought of a random instance that can irreversably reduce your empire's holdings is a bit of a game breaker, realistic perhaps, but still not a good game balancing effect. If it happens when you only have a few systems (happened to me once, wasted that game basically. Entire system was reduced to virtually no population) it can be devastating.

Why not make the change mostly to something that can be altered. IE make it something that high tech can change back, or better yet make almost all planet changes (barring planet destruction etc) be 'anti-terrraforming'. You'd need to send in the colony ships again to re-terraform, then recolonize that planet, but it wouldn't permanently wreck the system

While I'm considering that, why not also make certain types of red planets (unterraformable normally) able to be terraformed when you get the appropriate tech. Probably late game only, but might make the 'small high tech' race vs 'huge low tech' race type game (or against many other low tech races who've joined together) viable. Just a thought

Patupi got a interesting point here...
About planet destruction, he's right though. Permanently destroyed planets or irreversible damages takes the fun out. We should be able to repair, even if it takes longer than usual, because at least you keep on hoping you can do something to save the game...



I agree with you. But while anti-terraforming can be a bog, it can also be helpful in not winning it so fast and easy. And give the game an extra length. At late game, the wars begin with the Major races and gives us plenty to watch for already, so too much management maybe makes it another bog, but keeps on giving us hope of being the strongest.

Not too easy but also not so harsh to play.

Patupi, welcomed to the forums.
Thanks for the input. I am looking forward to the next update and any changes in this and other features.

Thanks Kenneth. I've pottered about here for years (mostly on the website, but a little on the forums) but never signed up. I've just been playing Birth of the Empires again and thought back to this and other of the four BOTF remakes (reimaginings, rebuilds or whatever you call them). Glad to see Supremacy is still going strong. I don't do Multiplayer much and certainly not something as long winded as this! I just don't have the time for it. I'll be DLing the current build but with no AI as yet it'll be for checking out how the game is progressing more than actually playing it

I also welcome you to the Forums.

I think I forgot something here!
Welcome Patupi!

Well thank you... but does this mean I'm Blue? I feel fine!

Edit: I also don't seem to be able to change the color of my profile name. Odd. Maybe I'm missing a menu here or something?

It is normal that you cannot change your profile color, colors are to acknowledge the staff only. If you please take a look at the Board Index, and scroll at the bottom of the page, you can click on each Staff's color to see what they are assigned to and who is working for which section.
If you decide to participate in creating 2D or 3D images or music and sound effects, or else, then your profile color will be changed, and a symbol will be added under your Avatar, according to which job you can accomplish. I create music and sound effects for the project so my color is Green and my symbol is the music Director's stick with a musical note.
Maybe you should read the Jobs and Position topic on the Board Index to check and choose at which job you can help.
I hope it helped you in some way.

*smiles* Already did. Put forward a bit of 3d artwork as a possible... but it's been a while since I did any modelling so I'll have to get back in the swing of things.

http://www.botf2.star-trek-games.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2388&p=70066#p70066

Sorry, I missed that one! Nice work man! Your color should have changed since to pale blue, or there might be a little problem somewhere.
In that case, you might want to ask Matress_of_evil about your color change. I think he's in charge of this.

Meh, wouldn't worry about it just yet anyway. I didn't realise they were using color coding as a job description anyway. If I get something they actually use then I'll see if they need to change something.