Regarding gameplay I agree that it would be fun to throw armadas of Cubes on your desperate opponents!

Is possible to set up a poll for the registered users? That would indicate what the users want...

Well I guess there's no real reason why it has to be non-playable... it would almost certainly be the most easy and boring game you ever play unless they are hamstrung for the human player... but I suspect multiplayer games will come with the tagline 'NO BORG PLAYERS!'

I've created a playable Borg poll Here.

I locked the thread to ensure this discussion doesn't get spread over two threads. I'm not sure if locking prevents people from voting though. If it has, let me know and I will unlock it. I've already voted so can't see whether I can still vote.

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It's interesting that you've mentioned the Omega Particle, captain_picard. I've put that in as a separate random unrelated to the Borg. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it:

Encounter the Omega Particle (You are given the option to either research the Omega Particle, or destroy it. If you destroy it, there is a minimal chance that it will explode, destroying Subspace in the surrounding sectors, permanently halving movement rates in the three surrounding sectors and permanently causing the loss of trade in all systems in the surrounding area. If you decide to research it, you will get a 50% Empire-Wide research bonus to Energy for 10 turns, but the chances of Omega Exploding are considerably increased)
A ship has detected the presence of the Omega particle. If we research it, we run the risk of causing a catastrophic explosion, with a collapse of Subspace in the surrounding sectors. This would render Warp Drive inoperable, and would devastate entire systems. However, the amount of research that could be done is truly phenomenal, and could tip the balance of power in favour of the Federation. What should our researchers do? Destroy/Research
We have discovered the most potent source of power in the Universe, the Omega particle. Whilst researching it would bring great benefits to our Empire, the risk of a catastrophic explosion is great. Such an explosion would cause Subspace to collapse, rendering Warp drive impossible throughout many sectors. Chancellor, what should our honourable yej'an do? Remember what happened at Praxis... Destroy/Research
R (Message Text Not Yet Written)
C (Message Text Not Yet Written)
D (Message Text Not Yet Written)

I may just be me under utilizing my brain, but I can't seem to vote on that poll, perhaps locking it is the cause.

As for commenting on the Borg, it would be cool to play them, but their whole purpose and style is different from other empires since they focus so heavily on just assimilating or destroying everything for the most part and are incredibily over powered. It seemed wierd to me in games like Armada where you could go up against the Borg like any other empire, but it was still fun to play them. Maybe a scenario where you play as or against the Borg, or at least have the option to exclude them in a regular game? In terms of gameplay in the original BOTF, the Borg were intended to force players to work together to eliminate them, but I don't know how much that actually happened. I always turned off random events (which included the Borg), or reset the ini file to exclude them, because as they were in BOTF they were either impossible to stop (and no computer would help you) or you were so powerful it didn't matter whether it was the Borg or any other empire. It was either "great, Borg are here and my game is over" or "I am so powerful the Borg are just wasting my time". If the Borg were to be a playable race in BOTF II it would be good to make sure there is some balance to the gameplay, but at the same time not make them just another race to play, they should have some kind of unique gameplay style. Of course I don't know what that is.

Why the poll is locked?

Adding a random event for the \Omega particle is a nice touch!

The Federation always has a strict protocol about the \Omega particle, and that is to destroy it. (Upon detection a Directive is automatically issued for the captain's eyes only with the rest being on a need to know basis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_particle_(Star_Trek). The so called Omega directive is temporarily above even the Prime directive).

So I would recommend (for the Federation only as the behaviour of the other empires is debatable) a more strict announcement giving emphasis on the need to destroy it, something like: \Omega is detected and must be destroyed at all costs because ... But for the sake of gameplay perhaps the final decision could be left upon the captain whether to destroy it or not.

A nice alternative would be to make it a handicap for the Federation and only for the Federation, since even Janeway obeyed the directive thus having no other alternative than to destroy it... Also, since the Borg inherently were driven by the need to study the Omega (remember Seven's objections to the captains decision?) perhaps they could have a greater bonus for studying the Omega? Or that is too much? lol

PS I can't vote on the poll ...

I locked it to stop people making further posts on the subject when we've got a perfectly good one here. There's always bound to be someone that does. I wasn't sure if locking would prevent voting or not, but apparently it does.

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I would LOVE to make the random events Empire-specific - Omega isn't the only one that we could then make so. Just think about Khan, the treachery of Duras, Sela, and Praxis to name just a few. Until we know more about Mike's plans for the random events though, i can't go into quite that detail. For the time being, it will have to be a generic, all-Empire encompassing list, but if Mike says otherwise i'll start rewriting it.

As for Omega though, captain_picard how does this sound for the Federation?

Starfleet Command Urgent Communique: Omega Directive Initiated. Commencing Tactical Command Briefing.
Omega molecules have been detected in Lantaru sector. Omega is believed to be the most powerful substance in existance. But it is also extremely unstable and the explosion unleashed by even one unstable molecule could devastate an entire Star system and the surrounding Subspace; Warp would be impossible. The research potential of Omega is incalculable, but so is the potential for the devastation of the entire Quadrant. What should be done with Omega? The very lives of countless millions of our citizens may depend on your decision. Research/Destroy.

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Stegrex, I feel the same as you about the Borg in Armada. I always mod the game to make Borg ships really expensive but also really powerful with a LOT more weapons, especially muti-target weapons. The lack of multi-target weapons in vanilla Armada is just nonsensical to me.

I also made the Borg ships larger but that also meant their shipyards etc. had to be bigger to accommodate them, which makes things a bit difficult for some of the maps. Let me know if you'd like a look at my modded files.

As for BOTF, the Borg never really bothered me. I always trained up a fleet of special ships just for the Borg. I've noticed that ships trained to legendary level do a rediculous amount of damage to Borg ships. A fleet of 9 legendary Defiants can wipe out a Cube before it even has a chance to fire back. Oddly enough so can a fleet of Cloaked ships.

Guess I needed to improve my Borg fighting skills in BOTF . But I think what you did with Armada is how I would like to play the Borg if they are in as a playable race, big and powerful and no negotiating or research, so I don't know exactly how that fits into a 4x game, except for a sepcial scenario. In Master of Orion 2 the Antarans would attack the most powerful players everynow and then, then disappear, coming back more powerful each time as tech and empire size developed. The point of this is to even the playing field. As BOTF was the next Micropose game based on 4x they used the Borg to fulfill that role, but I never felt like they did it because they Borg don't disappear after they attack they just keep going until everyone is dead or you destroy them and they left dead worlds in their wake, and they are always at the same uber power level (even in the early development levels).

If they are to be only a random event in BOTF2then they should randomly attack to assimilate drones and tech, I think, and be at a different tech level each time, to balance the game out so players that have a distinct starting advantage can't just bury their opponents but aren't completely wiped out by the Borg. Alternatively, if the Borg are to be playable having them be just another empire doesn't fit, again in my opinion, as they aren't going to engage in diplomacy (except when there is species 8472, but that wasn't diplomacy so much as blackmail), they don't exactly research like the other empires (I know there has been some discussion of whether the Borg research or not, ie omega, but it doesn't fit their style to make them research like the other empires). Might still be fun if they are another empire, but it would be kinda wierd to me at least. Of course, the game is moddable, so if the Borg aren't playable they could always be added in .

So my thoughts are:
If Borg = Random attacks only then - have them attack with different tech levels so you aren't creamed at the earlier levels, they should stop at some point, and they should target the most powerful empires (most populated or tech advanced empire) for purposes of game balance;
If Borg = Playable race then = they should focus only on conquering, limited research ability (have to assimilate most of it), no diplomacy, and this may just have to be a scenario pitting you against the galaxy (But as I have said having them be playable like the others would still be fun, just strange for a trek experience)
As always the player should be able to turn the Borg off (in addition to turning off random events).


PS - As a side question, are the victory conditions available on the trekmania database? (is there going to be a diplomacy victory?)

Actually, 3 of 12 I have the Voyager point of view (see all the posts above + the links I provided). However, say that the first time the Borg come knocking on your door they throw at you all the Cubes they can muster, like the way they did against species 8472. Cubes coming at you one after ther other... Game Over Unless the game is something like Star Trek: Invasion (game in PSOne) where you just had a Valkyrie (small 1 pilot ship) and you went against series of Cubes on your own... I can't say it wasn't fun but at some point it ruins the fun. (I can provide a video since I still play it once or a while...)

Yes, and in 2 battles (Wolf 359 and Sector 001) it took the Federation a whole fleet to bring them down (actually the first time the fleet got destroyed ).

I agree that they believe self-accomplishment is irrelevant but they do strive for the perfection of the Collective, so they do research (see my earlier link, it's for Voyager not TNG)

Great, nice touch! When you say converted from which format to which. Usually Audacity (free) can do that.

It's nice! More authoriative!

If you're after a free conversion program, I would definitely recommend NCH's Switch program. The link is to a free trial, but I err...might know a way around it. Obviously we don't condone that sort of the thing on the forums though.

Switch is useful if you want to convert an audio file into the .aac, .aiff, .aif, .amr, .ape, .au, .flac, .gsm, .m3u, .m3a, .mp3, .mpc, .ogg, .pls, .raw, .rss, .spx, .vox, .wav, .wma, or .wml filetype.

As captain_picard said, you might also find Audacity useful, although it is much more limited than Switch as to the amount of filetypes it can convert files to (mp3, .ogg and .wav). However, it is a sound editing program in its' own right, and an easy to use one at that. It can also record sound directly from your speakers without the need for a Microphone, so it's useful if you want to "acquire" the sound from a video, CD, etc. Again, we don't condone that sort of thing here.

I'll need more convincing about the ordered-chaos random Borg system. If they come and keep coming and are non killable, and better every time, then they basically amount to an elaborate way to put a time limit on each the game. Maybe it's more fun than the Sid Meier countdown way of things but unless there's a limit to how powerful they can be then they will get you in the end. If they do have a limit then we'll be back to the old way of having your normal fleet plus the one or maybe two anti-borg fleets on standby which is what we all want to move away from.

I'm in favour of the Borg as an non-playable faction that starts somewhere in the Delta quadrant with a number of assimilation units, does no research or colonizing of its own and once it comes into contact with another civ, it builds up the minimum military forces necessary to assimilate them in one campaign (which in Best of Both Worlds they deemed, correctly, as being just one cube) and then goes off and adds distinctiveness.

As long as they end up well balanced and not irritating like before, then i'll be happy. Also, if they are to appear at random, could they please please please be 'detected entering _______ territory' instead of how it was before so that we have a chance to intercept them?

how about my idea of sending "expedition fleets" to borg homeworld territory (not displayed on the map, kind of "outside the map") to weaken their strength and such their attack forces randomly sent to the quadrant(s)? In fact, by having dynamic hidden stats about borg strength and development with enough randomness in it all, you could have it all: your 1-2 anti-borg fleets cause they are so weak yet not weak enough to be completely destroyed by expeditionary forces; no anti-borg fleets at all cause you crushed them (how about nice species 8472 replacement in that case? ); fear and shiver before large borg attack forces which still can be defeated sustainably; or larger and ever larger borg attack fleets which in the end will get you and all other players on the map.

this would all depend on your prowess in building up your empire(s) and of course the success of your expedition fleets. Of course randomness will play its role too then. For easier gameplay, one could have the option to disable randomness and fix borg strength development to certain parameters, like overall fleets strength of all major empires at current turn, overall tech level and so on in order to have them be a balanced opponent mixing up and randomly selecting one or two majors to crush their fleets and systems a little so to give those players the strong need to recalculate their strategies and adapt them which ultimately leads to greater dynamics in-game between players.

Um...

Species 8472 (They pour out of a fluidic gate and destroy everything within sight - including Planets themselves, not just the civilizations on them. You have to fight to stop the invasion. Species 8472 will only appear once the Borg have invaded, although if/when they appear will otherwise be random)
Whilst experimenting with the energy matrix for a new form of propulsion, a team of scientists opened a Quantum Singularity into another dimension; Fluidic Space. They encountered a species that are known only by the Borg designation of "Species 8472". It seems they were angered by our opening of the conduit, and have begun a mass invasion of the sector. The scientists were killed by the invaders, but not before sending a message that the invaders were moving into other sectors. We must combat this grave threat before it gets out of hand.
Glory is on the horizon! We have fought many battles in this Galaxy, and now we must look further away from the homeworld to find enemies worthy of the Empire. Whilst experimenting with a new method of propulsion, our yej'an opened a Quantum Singularity to another dimension. The yej'an and their new technology were destroyed by an invading species, and now they are attacking everything within range. Charge your Disruptors, load the Torpedo bays. There is glory to be had from these invaders!
Whilst the Empire would be content with simply conquering this Galaxy, we must be prepared to defend it from attack from those in other Galaxies - and beyond. Whilst our researchers were experimenting with a new type of propulsion system, a stable doorway into another dimension formed. Before we had a chance to study the doorway and find a way to seal it, a hostile species found its' way through and destroyed the research facility. We must show these fools what the Star Empire is made of.
The Union is constantly in search of the materials it needs to defend itself. Whilst our researchers experimented with a new propulsion system to bring us those resources faster, a Quantum Singularity formed in the reaction chamber. Before the researchers could abort their project, a hostile species invaded the facility. Contact has since been lost with several other facilities in the area. The Navy will teach these invaders a lesson they will never forget. Cardassia can and will defend itself.
The Gods protect us from the evil of the Universe. Whilst our researchers experimented with a new propulsion system that will allow us to spread the message of the Founders further than ever before, a Quantum Singularity to another dimension formed. The facility was destroyed by the evil that came through from that other dimension. The Gods have told us that we must combat this evil; else we shall fall from their favour. We must not let that happen. We will not let it happen. We shall send the evil back to where it came from.

I'm starting to think that I was being psychic when I made all these randoms.

In my opinion, the best solution for the Borg is:

• They are non-playable
• They are represented on the map in the same way as the empires
• They are treated as a special-case with their own AI rules, directing them to assimilate rather than colonise and research
• They do not respond to diplomacy
• They can be wiped out if you manage to remove them completely from the map (ie all worlds, all vessels). Otherwise they can start again elsewhere
• Their ships are very strong (particularly the cubes), but CAN be defeated with a large enough force
• They start off little different from a normal empire, in terms of strength, but quickly overtake them, probably until the late game when the most powerful empire may have an advantage
• The AI makes sure the Borg act purposefully, attacking the most advanced race (could be a minor one, even) that they know of, or attacking to gain a particular technology they require
• Vessels encountered by the Borg should be assessed - something small and weak such as a scout should probably be ignored, unless it is particularly advanced
• The Borg assimilate technology from the debris of defeated enemies - perhaps 80-90%
• They are an option - you can turn them off if you don't want to have to deal with them for a more light-hearted game

That way I think would allow for the best gameplay. If you decide to go a different route, how is the AI going to be implemented? XML? If so it might be nice if there was an option in the editor for referencing a different set of AI rules for a particular race, that way you could more easily mod their behaviour

still i don't get it how to confine and prevent them from taking over the whole galaxy in the first 100 turns? Expansion via assimilation is essentially just system invasion so if enough minors are around they quickly find a path to one of the major powers and from there it's not very far towards the others. given their tech superiority throughout the game's time and especially at the beginning i don't see how you could do that other than restrict their AI to not go for the next-best system. You might say this is because the next-best system doesn't have an advanced enough species to care but if it's good for increasing range to get to other more advanced races it would also be stupid for a borg not to pursue it but sit back in their closet whining about not advanced enough races around their neighborhood .

Make them start out weaker, with a low desire to expand until the other empires reach a pre-defined level. And also keep them as far as possible from the main empires (without being stuffed right up into the corner every time) It's all about balance

maybe. but what about range? if the only race having reached a pre-defined level is half-way across the galaxy, should that mean they just have indefinite range and speed like with that transwarp nodes? I mean that would coincide with the borg behaviour in tng but essentially that means the borg won't appear until then. Yet, the borg in ST VIII showed some interest in early earth assimilation. Okay, that was because they knew they made a mistake. That leads to another question, how do they know about other species being developed enough to assimilate? Okay Q told them in TNG and we could say, the game tells them. So should their invasion plans start as soon as certain prerequisites are met or is there some probability that it starts maybe later in turns?

Then the solution would be the following: Have them confined in their space unless:

1) Someone comes knocking on their door (picking a fight/exploring etc)
2) A certain tech level is achieved. After that they are free to interact with/assimilate the other Empires...

Perhaps, either way until one of the two is satisfied they should be allowed to attack minor races but not Empires (Federation/Romulans etc)

I don't like what I propose very much, but it seems the only way to have at the same time:
a) freedom to build up your empire, ie play the game without the Borg make you a drone, and
b) some canonicity (compliance with Star Trek)

There are some other ways the Borg could be held back to keep the game balance:

Random Event Borg
Place limits on when the event is and isn't allowed to take place, or;
Have a minimum countdown between attacks with the first "attack" occuring at turn 0 - the first attack the player would then experience would be on turn 100 or whenever it is set.

Empire Borg
Set the construction costs for the Borg shipyard really high. They wouldn't be able to expand until the shipyard was built and they had built ships afterall, or;
Always have them placed in a relatively empty corner of the Galaxy with few systems. They wouldn't be able to spread until they had developed a bit first.

As for range and speed, perhaps they could have their own techs to research? Transwarp could be a mid-to late game development for them then.

If you do end up going the random event route, can you at least separate out the Borg so that they can be turned off, but the rest of the randoms left on - I like the random events, they keep things interesting, but an endless stream of Borg coming from nowhere I do not like

I still think that it will be better to activate them later on. The Borg used to be humanoid, after that they began to use cyborg technology. This resulted in the loss of indivuality and the persuit of assimilation other races. Wouldn't it be better if a colony of a minor would get assimilated because of the experimenting with cyborg technology? Obviously, this would require a reasonable advanced race, so that the Borg don't have a chance to turn up at the start. Instead of thinking what would be coolest, we should also think of what would be best to be implemented.

hm, let history speak for a while..: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg#History

so if in the year 1484 they had already several colonies and 900 years later thousands of worlds, how would you set a canon timeline here. just some technological boost (cyborg implants) and when would that boost have happened? Could it be that boost never happened at all? Considering we are starting at 2100 or somewhat around that time, you'd have to fill 250 years somewhat meaningfully and playable with the borg. Considering they had thousands of worlds, I'd say we leave them deep within non-playable delta quadrant area (even on huge map). Or is the huge map supposed to be covering the whole borg territory too? If so then the worlds on the map - at least when referring to canon - must represent several worlds (some kind of "compressed" worlds). I'd be definitely against playable Borg when Borg means you have possibly control in the end over thousands of worlds and cubes. Maybe you could start as a Borg "outpost" or something, receive spheres and cubes from time to time and have to assimilate through the quadrant. But still, we cannot really be canonical here since these thousands of worlds in the delta quadrant just don't fit the game.

Milky way is tiny and boring, mike is there chance to have few playble races from magellan clouds or andromeda?

I still think the Borg should not be a threat until you run into them. They didn't attack Earth until the Enterprise was hurled into one and the second Cube that was sent ended up sending the first one in the first place. I think the Borg should be an advanced race, but their set back is limited movement. That they can't move across space until they constructed an outpost which gives them limited movement and the construction takes a while so they can't move quickly. This would convey the idea that assimilation takes time and they slowly move from place to place. This would make them powerful but have a set back at the same time. But it does have its draw backs, meaning you have to beat the Borg back slowly, but it does have its draw backs as they can't be a threat if their movement is restricten UNLESS you discover them and they then have the ability to build a transwarp conduit and can attack a place of their choosing, making them have stragety attacks and opens their movement abit

Hey, 3 of 12 nice job .

However, it seems to have a bit of static noise... (unless it's a problem of my speakers

I will try and rip some more "Borg sfx" out Star Trek invasion. Is that a problem? (with regard to licences etc.)

Officially, we don't want to use any sound effects from other games, but unofficially i've already borrowed around 500 different sound effects from Armada 1, Legacy, and Starfleet Command 2 and given them to Wolfe. I believe some of them are already in the demo.

Obviously where possible we only want stuff made by us, but where it isn't possible we are endeavouring to give credit to the creator/game/developer/company where necessary.

The way I see the Borg working in game is this.

Firstly they should be a random event rather than a playable empire.

Stage 1

When a human controlled empire reaches a predetermined tech level (lets say level 4 in all fields) a message is displayed stating that ship ‘X’ has disappeared from sector ‘Y’

Several turns later the ship reappears and reports back to their empire that they have made contact with a race know as the ’Borg’.

Stage 2

At the next trigger point a system with a relatively low population should be attacked by the Borg. This will result in all life being wiped out. Any player subsequently visiting this system will discover that the inhabitants of the system have been annihilated by an unknown aggressor (unless they where the power in encounter the Borg in stage 1 - in whice case they will be aware that it was a Borg attack).

Stage 3

At the next trigger 1 cube appears in a random location and heads towards the furthest edge of space in a straight line. If the cube encounters any ships or systems it will ignore them if there tech level is below a certain level i.e

if all tech <= 5 then ignore, if any tech >5 attack.

Stage 4

A Borg outpost is constructed in a previously empty sector of space. The trigger for this could be all human empires reaching tech level 7 in all fields. From this point The Borg act like an empire, however they don’t have ship yards but build ships by assimilating and converting ships that they defeat in battle. From this point the Borg can only be defeated by destroying all their ships and their outpost. Once done they won’t reappear in game.