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Map idea
http://bote2.square7.ch/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2420		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Kambe [ 03 Aug 2008, 09:25 ]
Post subject:  Map idea
How about a map with the genuine positioning of planets like in ST universe. I understand that this may not be possible at this stage, but later when more races are in the game it would be awesome. The idea of reenacting the expansion and the development of empires seems too good.

Image
Author:  Malvoisin [ 03 Aug 2008, 09:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
we had this discussion a while ago already. This map is most likely also not canon, just look at the klingon empire dividing federation territory into two parts. I have yet to see a convincing, could-be-safely-called-canon map.
Author:  Zeleni [ 03 Aug 2008, 11:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Kambe do googling for Geoffrey T. Mandel maps they are canon maps of star trek universe.

I think Outremer is gone from this forums, maybe you would like to continue his work ??

Look in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1984
Author:  Kambe [ 03 Aug 2008, 12:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Sry but I dont have any useful skills or time.
Author:  mstrobel [ 03 Aug 2008, 16:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
We would like to eventually include a canon map, but it likely won't appear until the rest of the game is complete.
Author:  Stegrex [ 04 Aug 2008, 05:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
The canon maps are always 2D and the milky way galaxy is 1,000 light years thick in addition to being 100,000 across. I always wonder why no one reconciles the borders not lining up in 2 dimensions by having a better line up in 3 dimensions, considering the area in the galaxy is itself only about 1,000 light years across (it is as wide as it is thick, but the stars do lose density the further away from the galactic plane). Of course a better question might be why would I spend time worrying about something like that if its all made up anyway :). Just surprised everytime I see the map and its obvious that the stories don't work if all the empires are on opposite sides of the federation and yet no one mentions a 3 dimensional way to make it work as far as I have seen. (btw a 3D map would be totally awesome, however thats probably more of a BOTF 3 thing).
Author:  Malvoisin [ 04 Aug 2008, 13:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
navigating through a 3D map with a 2D visual screen device (=monitor) is somewhat confusing. If we had a holodeck then yes, I'd find a 3D map totally awesome too ;).
Author:  mstrobel [ 04 Aug 2008, 15:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Malvoisin wrote:
navigating through a 3D map with a 2D visual screen device (=monitor) is somewhat confusing. If we had a holodeck then yes, I'd find a 3D map totally awesome too ;).
I've had some interesting ideas for how to implement a 3D map, but as you've noted, the problem always comes down to navigation. Click-selecting a sector when you have overlapping sectors in multiple dimensions becomes a serious usability problem. Setting fleet routes is even more cumbersome. Some weekend, if I feel like doing some experimentation, I may put something together as a proof of concept, but it's far too late to incorporate a 3D map into Supremacy. Development is already lagging behind where I had hoped it would be, and I'm not about to set it back by a few more months for the sake of a highly experimental UI concept. ;)
Author:  Stegrex [ 04 Aug 2008, 17:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Yep, I had imagined it would be a nightmare and would cause serious delay, hence why I suggested maybe in a BOTF 3 (implying that BOTF 2 needs to get done first! :wink: ). And I can't say it enough, BOTF 2 is itself totally awesome even in its current development stage :) .
Author:  mstrobel [ 04 Aug 2008, 20:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Stegrex wrote:
Yep, I had imagined it would be a nightmare and would cause serious delay, hence why I suggested maybe in a BOTF 3 (implying that BOTF 2 needs to get done first! :wink: ). And I can't say it enough, BOTF 2 is itself totally awesome even in its current development stage :) .
Glad you think so :bigthumb:. Yes, there is always BotF3 to plan for...
Author:  Comtraya [ 05 Aug 2008, 01:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Would it be feasible to use maps that appeared on the show (computer displays), or are they either few and far between or contradictory?
Author:  Kenneth_of_Borg [ 05 Aug 2008, 03:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
I think not. They are not suited to the games needs for variety in a 2D simulation.
Author:  Aquila [ 13 Sep 2008, 22:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Success, I can post ... I was posting as Axtell. The following is a suggestion for the canon map posted above. Below is the contents of a 20x20 grid ... letters across the top numbers down the side.

A13 Tholia

B6 Breen

C8 Ultima Thule
C9 Portas
C10 Vanden
C11 Andromadae
C12 Iota Cassiopeiae
C13 Megara

D8 Dreon
D9 Septimus
D10 Sarepedion
D11 Talar
D13 Grazer

E3 Korndhoras
E4 Berengaria
E5 Antos
E6 Lytasia
E7 Clarus

E8 Rolor Nebula/ Baslands
E9 Cardassia
E10 Kelvas
E11 Omekla
E12 Galen

F5 Fesarius
F6 Ferenginar
F7 Maxia
F8 Tzenketh
F9 Bajor
F10 Soltok
F11 Hugora Nebula
F15 Cait
F17 Pacifica
F18 Mira

G7 Denobula Triaxa
G8 Mizar
G9 Trill
G10 Chin'toka
G11 Talos

H5 Aaamazzara
H6 Sharia
H7 Sol
H8 Terra Nova
H9 Arachnid Nebula
H12 Bre'el
H13 Cygnet
H15 Gamma Tauri
H16 Delphi Ardu

I3 Rhaandar
I4 Ivor
I6 Bolarus
I7 Alpha Centari
I8 Andor
I9 Vulcan
I10 Son'a
I11 Aldebaran
I12 Organia
I13 Davlos
I14 Alawanir
I15-16 Lambatta Cluster
I17 Ventax
I20 FGC-82659

J3-4 Typhoon Expanse
J5 Romulus
J6 Devron
J7 Nelvana
J9 Nausicaa
J10 Suliban
J11 Sherman's Planet
J13 Tribble Prime
J14 Forcas
J15 Korinar
J16 Renaui
J18 Kessik

K3-4 Typhoon Expanse
K5 Devolin
K6 Belek
K7 Vendor
K8 Galorndon Core
K9 Paulison Nebula
K10 Gamma Hromi
K11 Archanis
K12 Gamma Eridon
K14 K'Vort
K15 Tika
K16 Ya'Vang

L5 Garadius
L8 Umroth
L9 Acamar
L10 Kitomer
L11 Praxis
L15 Rotarran
L17 Cestus
L19 Bellatrix

M4 Caldos
M8 Devoras
M9 Azure Nebula
M10 Rura Penthe
M11 Qo'nos
M15 Ogat
M16 M'Char

N4 Zackdorn
N5 Talvath
N8 Chaltok
N9 Narendra
N10 K'T'inga
N14 Tiburon
N18 Gorn

O8 Iconia
O9 Archer
O11 Halee
O12 Ty'Gokor

P3 Zalcon
P8 Tyrellia
P9 Klach D'Kel Brackt
P10 Tessen
P13 Klothos
P16 B'rei
P20 Metron Consortium

Q3 Zeta Gelis Cluster
Q12 N'Yengoren
Q16 Vor'Cha

R9 Amargosa
R11 Bortas
R15 Maht-H'A
R17 Somraw
R18 Q'Tahl

S13 Negh'Var

T19 Vorn
T20 Vodrey Nebula

The systems listed will still hafta be populated with accurate planets and associated max populations. Given enough time, I can pull off a decent guess.

Lemmi know what you think and Ill finish up with the medium map (46x46)
Author:  Aquila [ 13 Sep 2008, 22:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Also, I still need to add the other known systems from the original BotF or at least the ones you'll be using.
Author:  blane [ 13 Sep 2008, 22:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
With regard to a BotF3 3D enviroment, I have always though a system like this :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw
would make a good starting point.
Author:  Matress_of_evil [ 13 Sep 2008, 23:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Ooh I know that video. I saw it a couple of months ago. I can't understand why Nintendo haven't made it a standard feature yet. You can't get much more 3D than that from a standard TV. :love:
Author:  Kenneth_of_Borg [ 14 Sep 2008, 00:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Nice work Aquila and good find blane. It would be nice to use that 2D info now and use the 3D in Supremacy 2 when the head tracking is commonplace.
Author:  Aquila [ 14 Sep 2008, 23:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
What do you plan to do about the planets for each system in the canon map? I think it is possible to make an educated guess about most of the planets and max population in each system. I could do it, but it would take a large amount of time.
Author:  mstrobel [ 14 Sep 2008, 23:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Aquila wrote:
What do you plan to do about the planets for each system in the canon map? I think it is possible to make an educated guess about most of the planets and max population in each system. I could do it, but it would take a large amount of time.
Currently, the Supremacy Editor allows you to define planets for a civilization's home system, which includes the ability to specify ranges of random planets in addition to specific planets. I will eventually create a map editor that will offer the same functionality for designing entire maps.

You don't actually specify max population--it's computed based on the number, size, and desirability of the planets in the system. Same goes for growth rate.
Author:  Matress_of_evil [ 14 Sep 2008, 23:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
As Mike said, there is no way to work out populations in the game; the game does this itself based on the planet types, the ideal planet type of the inhabiting race (Eg. Humans prefer Terran worlds; a system full of Terran worlds can support a higher population of Humans than if that same system was inhabited by Cardassian, who prefer Desert planets), and the size of the planets in the system.

As for estimating the planets themselves, that's easier than you think - just run a search for the Star System you need to know about on sites like Memory Alpha, The Star Trek Wiki. For instance, searching for "Vulcan System" on Memory Alpha brings up this:

Memory Alpha wrote:
There are three planets and an asteroid belt in the system. Planet I is class-B. In Star Charts this is also the classification of Mercury. Planet II, Vulcan, is class-M. Planet III, T'Khul, is class-G and has a moon. In Star Charts class-G is the classification of planets similar to Delta Vega. Vulcan and T'Khul are twin planets.
Author:  mstrobel [ 15 Sep 2008, 02:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
I have a book of Star Trek Star Charts that has the configurations of some of the more prominent star systems in the Trek universe. I'll snap some digital photos and upload them for reference.
Author:  Matress_of_evil [ 15 Sep 2008, 11:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
I find This Site really useful in planetary classification. Whilst the classifications on the site can't be used as-is in Supremacy without a little generalisation, due to the limitations of the planet types (Supremacy has 11 types, that site has 22 types) it helped me to work out quite a lot of the minor race homesystems as part of my content update. Not to mention that that site has some pretty nice eyecandy. 8)
Author:  mstrobel [ 15 Sep 2008, 16:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Matress_of_evil wrote:
I find This Site really useful in planetary classification. Whilst the classifications on the site can't be used as-is in Supremacy without a little generalisation, due to the limitations of the planet types (Supremacy has 11 types, that site has 22 types) it helped me to work out quite a lot of the minor race homesystems as part of my content update. Not to mention that that site has some pretty nice eyecandy. 8)
I believe the content on that site is taken directly from the star charts book I mentioned, which is written by Geoffrey Mandel, so I think we can assume that the information is accurate to the Trek universe. The map that Kambe included in the original post is from the same book as well.
Author:  Valcoren [ 15 Sep 2008, 18:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
yes; it is from the Star Trek Star Charts manual, but so is the fore mentioned map. Which has been argued to be non-canon. :gripe: lol

-Val
Author:  Malvoisin [ 15 Sep 2008, 18:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
while we do ask for permission, we could also ask for canon material you know.. :lol:

On a sidenote, I think due to so many different 'canon' sources which partially contradict each other, there will always be enough players saying the game is not canon, no matter which book you chose for the game.
Author:  Stegrex [ 15 Sep 2008, 19:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
There are also these websites

http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/
http://www.ucip.org/science/newmaps/
Author:  Aquila [ 15 Sep 2008, 23:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
How will you populate the systems that aren't well documented?

Are you using all the systems from the original BotF?

Given enough time, and a list of what systems you'll be using, I could make an educated guess on populating the lesser known systems with the help of memory alpha and the star trek star charts map.
Author:  Aquila [ 02 Oct 2008, 00:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
When is the next version coming out?

Im still working on 46 by 46 ... Can I have a list of all the systems that you plan on using? Itd be easier to match my maps up to what you need with a list of stars/systems you plan on using.

Just outta curiosity how do you feel about 5000 by 5000? The actual math for (1 square equals 20LY) is 5 grand by 5 grand for the entire galaxy. I think there isa simple way to do it ... but you programmer would have to be on board.

Thoughts?
Author:  Malvoisin [ 02 Oct 2008, 07:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
I would rather ask, is there a simple way to play that. ;)
Author:  Matress_of_evil [ 03 Oct 2008, 12:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Map idea
Hey Aquila, i've got a pressie for you. Check out the attached file. :mrgreen:

It took me a while to make, but it's a list of ALL of the system names in Supremacy, plus all of the Nebulas, plus all of the minor race home systems, all in alphabetical order for you.

Attachments:
Star Systems.txt [9.29 KiB]
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