Hehe. There are others too.
Regarding the RDM specifically, and while at it throwing in the State Rations and the initial conditions for each of the empires, and a few more things:

There are 3 basic energy structures at the beginning of the game:
Charge Collectors 700 +100 Arctic
Solar Panel Array 650 +40 Des/Jun/Oce/Ter
Wind Turbine 100 +35 Barren

Of these, the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians can build all 3 initially (barring the bug with the SPA); the Romulans only the SPA; and the Dominion none. That means the Romulans and the Dominion have to divert pop to energy production if they want to build the shipyard (which is crucial).
If the SPA is made to work correctly, the Romulans get a bit better; it's still no match for the 100 Cost WT (with 650 Cost, that's a few turns production). It doesn't help the Dominion though - not sure if a "Rogue" class should be able to hold SPA (Volcanics don't, and they usually have the Energy bonus... - I also think there's a bit of a conflict there, with SPAs getting benefits from Energy bonuses).

Regarding Planet specials in HomeSystems:
The Federation gets 2xEne and 1xFood, with another possible Ene at Mars; the best setup clearly.
The Romulans again get shafted, with none; they can get random ones though, both bonuses.
The Klingons also get none base; possible randoms.
The Cardassians get 1xEne; they get the State Rations at game start to compensate for food, +15 Food with no energy required.
The Dominion gets 1xEne, 1xFood; since it's a single planet, no randoms.

So, the Romulans start really slow, even though they have a somewhat high starting pop and growth rate (not really relevant); oh, and their shipyards are the least efficient, because of their 35 Ene upkeep, which takes 3 pop to power (even if they get lucky and get a random energy bonus). And their colony and construction ships are really slow.

So, where does the RDM enter the issue? Well, since it should already exist when the game starts, maybe the RDM should have no Restrictions. Having it from the start would give them the advantage of not having to think about Dilithium extraction for some time. Just a thought though.




Though I can see some "fluff" point in this, I wouldn't consider it critical to the game. Homeworlds are already Ideal for the race, so they get max pop - and those classes are not that common as to make that distinction moot. If it's something to distinguish just a couple of systems, is it really worth it? Does it really have an impact? More pop means more production, but also more food consumption (and therefore production required), so gains are probably marginal at best. Unless you're thinking of going crazy with the multiplier, which can have other problems. It shouldn't have too much of an impact (if any) on Area of Influence since your HW should be in the heart of your empire. And since colony ships create pop instead of removing it from systems, there's no gain in that front either.



With minors the Area of Influence part *could* be relevant. Again, nice for "fluff", but in here the production topic should be pointed out. Overcrowded systems shouldn't necessarily be more productive. In this game, base production equals pop, so these minors would actually have better production (ships and structures). Any area of production really, including research, intel generation, whatever. Besides, having more pop is as easy as increasing the size of the homeworld, which shouldn't really be a problem canon-wise - what really matters is pop level, the size of the planet in the system display is really not important.
Not sure how this would allow empires to grow better (not sure of the meaning I mean), but it might have more of an impact than would be required for basically a "fluff" change IMO.




Hehe. But you need to spend energy to make the food you're going to hand out, just like in any other food production structure for the other empires.


--

(posted to another thread, repeating it here)

@Mike:
Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to have either a window or a button (or any other way) that pops up a window in the diplomacy screen with a race's description (when it is selected).
To be more accessible, instead of having to go to the Encyclopedia in the Research screen.

The Romulan lack of energy is technically canon; the Romulans didn't develop true spacefaring technologies themselves because they couldn't figure out efficient power generation methods. That's why they were still relying on impulse-powered ships when Kirk first met them. They actually acquired Warp technology and Warp-capable ship designs from the Klingons, but once they had those they started developing the tech in a very different way to the rest of the galaxy, eventually turning to quantum singularities instead of Dilithium-regulated matter/antimatter explosions.

...Of course, Enterprise probably messed things up a bit there. I can't remember exactly what techs the Romulans had in Enterprise other than an android controlled stealth ship, but they probably gave the Romulans Warp. Tut.

The lack of energy strctures is simply to reflect this early problem the Romulans had. I suppose we could give them a mid/late energy-producing structure to offset this, eg. Quantum Singularity Plant.

The Dominion don't have access to these structures because the Dominion need *some* disadvantages afterall, and I believe they acquired their early tech by copying the technology of the solids. Plus their homesystem has little use of those structures.

...

Removing the RDM restrictions is definitely an idea to balance it out better. I'll mention it to Dafedz tomorrow. Not now though, it is 3am afterall.

...

The multiplier *would* have a crazy setting (If I get my way) but this would be restricted to a very few race, eg. the B'Omar and Borg. I would set it so there were five different settings; the first and last densities would be rare, the empires would have the last-but-one setting and most races would be mid-range. I wouldn't expect this to have any impact on the sphere of influence though.

...

The Food facilities don't require power. Hehe free food!

...

I like that idea. It was like that in BOTF actually, although it's possible Mike already has plans to implement it. The diplomacy is very much a work-in-progress afterall. Fingers crossed it'll be in.

As long as they are *as* playable as any other empire, it's cool. I was just pointing out that they start slow, because the early game is critical in 4X. It's mostly an issue with the homeworld, but if they get unlucky with other systems too, it might be bad.

Maybe the RDM could have some smallish energy production attached, to help a bit




I meant the non-basic food structures, which do require power.


---

I have a ton of stuff to report, but it'll have to wait till monday.
One of the things is those minors' defense structures are totally off. I could build *both* Orbital Batteries (minor and empire) in the same system, I could build *all* shields (minor) plus the Planetary Shield (empire), the Obsolete/Upgrade displays were all blank, etc. I'll post with more detail then.

About the change in the ships' names, IMO it would be better if you'd roll back to the old way - in a way, reverse what it displays now, meaning display the type of ship in the Encyclopedia and Shipbuilding (Colony Ship I, Transport Ships I, etc) and in the descritpion text then mention the class (Constitution, whatever). Much easier for people who are not Trek fanatics - and I suppose you want them to play the game too


@Mike
Is it possible to have the system names in the starmap for systems that have minors be displayed in a different color than those that are uninhabited? They're all white. Maybe make those with minors, once visited, turn to light gray or something? So they can be easily identified. Colors are defined in the Civilizations.xml file, but those are static, and it'd be a giveaway.

I can't do any updates until Tuesday - my graphics card has died on me and I don't wanna risk loading my computer up til the replacement arrives. (I'm writing this on my sisters laptop but she wants it back... )

The ship naming problem is going to be fixed in the update-after-next; Mike is going to add some new options in the editor that will allow me to name the ships how I want them in the next update. I'll update all the ship names once I have access to that update, so the name update will be released in the update-after-next.

That machine of yours is jynxed

---


About ship names, maybe adding some form of abbreviation of the ship's type before the class would help?
eg, COL Conestoga Class, CON Berlin Class, CRU Enterprise Class, etc.

About the moons issue, it only makes larger systems even larger, and smaller systems don't really benefit all that much. Smaller systems have lower pops, so they take longer to build the habitation modules, and they generally have less moons, so they get a lower increase in pop. They'll probably have less energy available too (if they're made to take energy). Larger systems benefit a lot more from this, for the same cost, which is exorbitant for what it does, taking 25~40 turns to build.
One aspect that hasn't probably been considered yet: what happens when you sabotage the habitation modules? Pop will die, but *which* pop? If it's pop allocated to farms or power plants, that's additional problems.

Type 1 University is producing 12000 research (instead of 12). Probably a leftover from testing. Just a heads-up for the next release.

I read somewhere that systems would always get at least one colonisable planet. I got a system with absolutely no planets, asteroids, nothing: Max Pop 0, Growth 0%. Also got some with asteroids, and/or gas giants only. Nothing against it, just checking if it's intended.

The +X% Industry bonus [Ministry of Justice (Rakhar), Replicator Plants, etc.] only applies to production from structures, not to pop-related base industry. Just an observation, as it is kind of misleading (because of the base industry from population that was introduced in Supremacy).

+x% Growth Rate structures: they seem too expensive for their benefits (a % on the %, something like ~+0.2 or 0.3%). Most of them don't have an energy cost, and/or have another bonus, but look at Ice Breaking Stations. True you can toggle it off once the planet reaches max pop, but that's yet another reason to make this structure odd. Even with a future possible use due to a pop decrease event.

None of the minors' special structures have any tech requirements (except the shipyards), so they can be built as soon as they join your empire. Granted they usually have a high cost, but still, it's inconsistent. In fact, I think it's the other way around, it's most of the empires' structures that are only unlocked by research to kind of make the research matrix more important (the Reman Dilithium Mines issue, which also applies to say the Starfleet Academy and equivalent structures for the other empires - where do your Officers graduate from?!). There are even descriptions of minors / first contact messages that tell you that they have this and that, and in fact they have the tech, but they have to actually build the structure...

The defense structures of minors don't show in the Encyclopedia, except for their Orbital Batteries.
Also, doesn't make sense that their Orbital Batteries are available to *all* the minors, even those that get none of the defensive structures (because of tech level limitations).

The Research Complete screen displays Orbital Batteries twice, when you get to the point of being able to build them (level 3). They also show twice in the Build List display (for both your native systems and for minors' systems that have joined), one with Obsoleted Items = Orbital Batteries, the other without. The Descriptions are also slightly different, the difference being the word Phaser in the former. One is the empire's (in the case the Federation), the other is the minors'.

If in a minor's system that joined your empire you build their Orbital Batteries first, you still get to build your empire's OBs, so you can have both built. If you build yours first though, theirs are not available for building.

When a minor joins your empire, that system gets both the Basic Shipyard (if not built yet) and the empire's level 1 shipyard as building options. Only one should show. [incidentally, the Basic Shipyard is better than any empire's level 1 shipyard, which is a bit of an oddity]

In a minor system that joins your empire, if you build the Molecular Shield, you can still build the Planetary Shield (doesn't obsolete it). You can have the Molecular, Positron, Gravitron, Advanced Gravitron,and Planetary shields, all activated at the same time. [again, most Shields of minors are better than the standard Planetary Shields, some much better, which is even odder]

The Combat Grid (minors) should get the OpS restriction, or you can build as many as you want (in case the default OpS is fixed).
The Tachyon Defense Grid (minors) doesn't have any Prerequisites, or Restrictions. Should also get OpS and HS.
[again, minors seem to benefit more from defensive strucutres than the empires, they have more of them, which are not upgrades]

Molecular Shield, Resistance Network, Basic Shelters, Civilian Reserve (Coridan), Isolinear Scanner: Upgrade Options blank.
Positron Shield, Gravitron Shield: both Upgrade Options and Obsoleted Items blank.
Advanced Gravitron Shield: Obsoleted Items blank.

Global Defense Net should probably give an Anti-Ship Defense (-> Defence) bonus, and not a +% Anti-Ship Defense - if there isn't already an ASDef value, GDN does nothing, and its description sounds silly (and misleading).

Bunker Network (OpS, Home System) upgrades to Resistance Network (OpS, Non-Native System)... inconsistent.
Also, Bunker Network doesn't have the OpE restriction.
Should the minors' defensive structures obsolete this one? Same applies to other stuff.

Surplus Depot has an energy requirement. What happens to mothballed ships when it is toggled off? Seems like one of those structures that you'll only power up when you want to scrap ships (besides the mothballing, if it's actually useful).

Some structures are set to not be universal, but they're not in any empire's techtree: Aquaculture Centre, Commerce Centre, Commercial Exchange, Commercial Hub, Subspace Jammer.
(The Aquaculture Centre could actually help the Romulans at game start)

Low-Grav Resort (Elaysians)
The Non-Native System restriction is not really necessary.

Card Obsidian Order
Is still missing the One Per Empire restriction.

Aquasphere
The description mentions a Biotech research bonus; Statistics says +100 Research (global) though.

Starfleet Intelligence
Doesn't have the One Per Empire restriction. For consistency only.

Starfleet Academy
It's a OpS and OpE facility, shouldn't it also have the Home System restriction?

Fed Gravitic Sensor Array
Doesn't have the One Per Empire restriction. For consistency only.

Fed Global Defense Net
No restrictions whatsoever. Should probably have OpS (in case the default OpS is fixed).

ASDB Complex
The Dilithium restriction is a bit redundant because Sol has the Dilithium bonus by default. Even if it were made not to have, then the facility wouldn't make sense.
Same thing for the Dilithium Cracking Station of the Coridans (BTW, its description text sounds more like a first contact text than the description of a facility of a race which *already* is allied with you...)

Asteroid Sweeper
It kind of overlaps with the Federation's Mining Corps/Geosurvey/Harvesting line of techs (for the Federation only of course, since it's universal).

Trade Centre upgrades to Trade Hub, but Trade Hub does not obsolete Trade Centre. They shouldn't be cumulative.
Trade Centre doesn't have any restrictions (which makes Trade Hub not have too), should probably have OpS (in case the default OpS is fixed). Same happens with the Fed Replicator Plants.

The Cardassian Relocation Program has energy cost 200, and restriction NonNativeSystem, while the Romulan and Federation equivalents have zero and Moons respectively. The Klingons and Dominion don't have these?

The Cardassian Union Broadcast Network doesn't have any Restrictions. Besides the OpS default that is, but if that is fixed, it isn't restricted in number. Since it grants +1 morale empire wide, even the OpS might be a bit much.

The Klingon Mark 1 and Mark 2 Replicators don't have an upgrade/obsoletion link. They also have no restrictions. They're worthless because of the Basic Food Processor, which is supposed to not have any restriction, and is much cheaper and consumes much less energy.

The Klingon Apothecaries doesn't have any restrictions.

Rom Imperial Mining Program doesn't require the system to have Raw Materials. It also has no other requirements.

The Romulan, Klingon and Federation Fleetyards don't require a Native system, the Cardassian and Dominion do. The Romulan one doesn't have a Shipbuilding bonus. Is that intended?
The Utopia Planitia shipyard doesn't have the One Per Empire restriction.

The Data Imaging tech unlocks the Daystrom Institute structure, the description of which says Daystrom was awarded prizes for his studies in Duotronics. It just so happens that the Duotronics tech comes right *after* Data Imaging in the Computers line of research...

TechTrees.xml
The Axanar, Coridans, Kazon and Tellarites shouldn't have the Basic/Medium/Advanced Shipyards, since their special shipyards are supposed to obsolete them.
The Alsaurians have shipyards but have no ship designs.
The Brekkians have one ship design but no shipyards.

TechObjectDatabase.xml / TechTrees.xml
For easier reference:
HYDROPONICS_DOME CARD_HYDROPONICS_DOME
FREE_MARKET FED_FREE_MARKET
PRIVATE_FARMS FED_PRIVATE_FARMS
HOLOCENTRE FED_HOLOCENTRE
AGRICULTURAL_CENTRES FED_AGRICULTURAL_CENTRES



Ships:

All ships should require at least Propulsion 1, which is the Warp Drive (probably Construction and Weapons 1 too, while at it). The Outpost I should also probably require Construction and Weapons 1.

Federation New York Class
Upgrade Options reads Berlin Class (which is the predecessor, Obsoleted Item).

Dominion Battle Cruiser III
Has Range = 0.

A bunch of Cardassian ships have no Dilithium cost.

All Cardassian colony ships have no Work Capacity set, that's why they can't colonise. The Federation Colony Ship III has the same problem. It's easy enough to fix (TechObjectDatabase.xml).

I was under the impression that you said that Federation colonies were supposed to be the best, but the Work Capacity of their colony ships is actually the worst (25 vs 50 for everyone else in Colony Ship I, 50 vs 100/150 in Colony Ship II). That means the colonies start with not only half the pop of others, but also half the initial structures (as they're related).

The Romulan Transport Ship II has Work Capacity = 50 (same as the I), it should probably be 100 like every other empire (the III has 150).

The Colony Ship II for the Klingons and Dominion (they don't have the III) have the same Build Cost (approx.), Raw Materials and Crew as regular IIs, even though they have the Work Capacity of IIIs (and are armed). Maybe an intermediate value?

The Federation Colony Ship I has a value for Population Health, no other colony ship in the game does. Intended?

The Romulan Colony Ship III is a bit on the cheap side, when compared to the others.

Acamarian Raider I: are the Scan Power and Sensor Range values switched?

Angosian Transport: no Crew.

Bilanaian Destroyer: no Tech preReqs, Type = Colony.

Boslic Transport II: no Dilithium cost.

Breen Battlecruiser III: ClassName = Breen Corasta Class Corasta.

Brekkian Transport: no Tech preReqs.

Bynar Cruiser: Type = Colony.

Caldonian Explorer: Type = Colony.

Denobulan Frigate: Range = 0, no Maneuverability value.

Dosi Cruiser: no Tech preReqs.



Minors:

Acamarians
They're described as "With the military infrastructure that they have, they are more than capable of defending their homeworld.", and they're considered Developed, but their techtree only includes the Civilian Reserve and Resistance Cells defensive techs (plus the Orbital Batteries).

Algolians
Should the Algolians be Backward techwise, with the minor structures they get (compared to other minors) and the gift for intellectual capacity they're described as having?

Cytherans
They're supposed to be made of pure energy, but they can build all of the defensive structures for minors (probably because of the Supreme tech rating).


HomeSystems.xml:

Arbazan
Arbaza I should be called Arbaza, according to the race's description.

B'Omar
Their homeworld: Bomar B'Omar

Ba'ku
Their homeworld: Ba'Ku Ba'ku

Elaysians
Elaya III should be called Elaya, according to the race's and Low-Grav Resort descriptions.

Ferengi
Races.xml, is their homeworld really supposed to be the Oceanic planet, or should it be the Jungle planet instead? The system has both set as mandatory.

Yaderans
Swap homesystem (Yadera Prime) and homeworld (Yadera) names.

Races whose Inhabitants are set as Humans:
Baneans, Malcorians, Mintakans, Pakled

Races that don't force the class of the homeworld:
Bothans, Coridans, Dosi, Sheliak (system has no planets AT ALL)

Star system name and type not defined:
Tilonians

Unnecessary <Planet /> tags (probably leftovers from editing):
Zibalians, Ventaxians, Ullians, Tilonians, Tanugans, Talosians, Takarans, Sikarians, Rutians, Ramatians, Wadi, Trill, Tholians, Tellarites, Son'a

You have great analitic skills Iceman

Hehe, I'm *very* thorough. Not done yet too.

(Klingon) Forced Labour Foundry
Could build it on the homeworld of a minor that joined my empire, even though it is a Conquered System structure.

(Klingon) Forced Labour Farms
Should also have the Conquered System restriction, like the Foundry?

(Klingon) Great Hall
Doesn't have the OpE restriction.

(Klingon) Dilithium Gulag
The description text was copied from the Mining Prison, refers to itself as Mining Prison. (labor labour) Also, it says mining Dilithium, but the structure actually requires and produces both Dilithium and Raw Materials.

(Klingon) War Room
Is it supposed to only have the OpS restriction?

I colonized a system with max pop 30, with a Colony Ship I (Work Capacity 50). Only 30 pop were created in the system of course, but the number of structures was capped by that number of colonists (2/4/1/1/1) instead of by the original 50 (3/6/2/2/2). Doesn't make much sense.

Regarding Colony Ships II and III, a lot of systems can't take 150 pop (or 100); so I'm wondering about the usefulness of these ships. Since upgrades are automatic, this is bad. Also, I'm not sure these are really needed, as when you get them, the colonization phase of the game should be over already.
Systems that can take these pop levels, though, will be practically fully built upon colonization, which is very bad.

+% BioTech research bonuses (for example), they only work when researching BioTech. When researching other areas, they're worthless. But if the structures are built and powered, how can they produce zero research?! The %s issue, again. They should provide an additive bonus, not a %.

I think the food calculation of a system that has a negative food balance (with positive stock food), the turn it finished upgrading its base food generation structures, is wrong. Maybe it has to do with the fact that joined minors systems seem to process their turns twice in a single turn though, not sure.

Took a Klingon Construction Ship I (Range 5, Fuel 5) 5 sectors out of its Refueling Range, and built an Outpost I 10 hexes from my homeworld. That's odd, especially with the ship being Stranded. Of course, with the Outpost built... that's the Range+Fuel dual system at work in all its glory

Civilian vs military production
Because of the base industry provided by pop, the factor of 10 applied to military production relative to civilian production [I read somewhere a post from Mike saying this was for testing purposes, but that was an old post], and the relatively low cost of ships, removing pop from factories doesn't have much of an impact on ship construction. It's detracting IMO.

Costs in the game are all wrong.
Outpost I costs 1000, 20 turns to build by a Construction Ship I (Work Capacity 50)
Level 1 ships costs ~1000, ~3 turns
Level 1 Shipyards costs 100, 1 turn
Level 1 Farm costs 60, 1 turn
Level 1 Factory costs 110, 1 turn
Solar Panel Array costs 650, 5~6 turns
Level 2 Farm costs 165, almost triple the Level 1, for a marginal gain
Level 2 Factory costs 370, same thing
Level 2 Shipyards costs 2100, 21x more...
...


Upgrade costs don't make much sense. You pay half the new structure (new level) cost, not the structure's cost, or the difference in costs. So there's no point in those structures having that cost. They should cost only half, and you'd pay the full cost (that half) - since you can never build a level 2 structure (for example) from scratch, due to the (weird) way upgrading works.

One other odd thing about the upgrade system, is that each of the game's entities (Structures, Ships, Stations) has a different upgrade scheme. Looks a bit "disorganized".

Structures don't cost credits to build, but they return 25% of their cost in credits when scrapped. That's a huge exploit.

So why do Romulan ships cost Dilithium to build?

--

Outposts, by the time you finish building them, are mostly obsolete and useless as outposts (because of colonization).


Structures don't cost credits to build, but they return 25% of their cost in credits when scrapped. That's a huge exploit.

Same will happen with scrapping ships (when it's working) BTW, since scrapping in general returns 25% of an item's *build* cost in creadits - according to the definition files. I suppose building stuff was supposed to cost credits, which wouldn't be totally illogical, and would be a kind of deterrent to building things left and right even when you don't need them (the excess base structures issue for example).

They have to cost something to be consistent with the other races.

--


Outposts are typically faster to get set up then colonizing a new system. While this may currently be the reverse in Supremacy, Supremacy is also in a testing mode of sorts to ensure everything works. Thus, outposts have long build times (I really really doubt they'll take 20 turns to build when the game is complete) and every planet is already terraformed.



The default "build item" when a structure or ship is not being built is to generate extra credits as "trade goods" (at least, that's how it was in the original). Thus, it's typically better for the credits to not build anything (all your production will be focused in building additional "product" that is converted into credits) then to build structures and ships and then scrap them. I'd imagine a similar build order would be implemented.

Yes, Mike does plan to add Trade goods or some other such item as the default contruction item when no orders have been given. I discussed this with him a month or three ago, so he definitely knows about it.

I don't think you understood my point. Of course they'd have to cost something. And the Reman Dilithium Mines would just look useless I was alluding to the (ever-present) "canonicity", the Romulans having to have energy problems because it's canon, but their ships costing dilithium which apparently is non-canon. These are both gameplay issues, mind you. There's some contradiction there, that's all.



Like I keep telling MoE, I'm just reporting And since I've seen nobody else mention it...
We're not talking terraforming, we're talking colonizing BTW. Terraforming hopefully will not be instantaneous.
There was some talk about dumping Construction ships and returning the function to Transports. What's the status on this?



Again, I don't think you understood. If I build say a farm, it doesn't cost me any credits to do so. If I then scrap it, I get 25% of its build cost "returned" to my global stockpile in the form of credits. So I can keep doing this all day (high level structures yield more credits of course) and generate credits from nowhere.

Kazon, Coridan, Tellarites shipyards don't obsolete Utopia Planitia (Axanar does).

Aqua-Dredge is also set to not be universal, but it's not in any empire's techtree.

Shouldn't the Dilithium Refinery have some tech requirements (Wind Turbines and Charge Collectors do, for example, Construction 1)? Doesn't have any effect now, just in case the starting tech level is changed for some reason.

After the Subspace Scanner, the Cardassians can get 2 Listening Posts, their own and the universal ones (no obsoletion).

The Card Covert Sensor Array requires tech level 6, while its predecessor, the Card Isolinear Scanner requires 8...
Also, not sure, but judging by the Dom Anti-Proton Array, shouldn't it also get some form of Anti-Cloak detection? Just asking, simply by comparing.

None of the scanners have the OpS restriction (besides the default).

The Thermal Tether's energy output is 30? With those tech requirements and cost?
Comparing with upgraded structures like the Advanced Turbines and Advanced Solar Array.

The Native System restriction in the Klingon Bunker Stations is redundant.

Communications Grid grants bribe resistance to non-native systems. Do native systems have a special resistance to bribes?

Is the Bunker Network supposed to be Home System only?

Planetary Shield doesn't have the OpS restriction.

The %GrowthRate structures give the bonus to the global growth rate, not to the specific planet's (the restriction-related planet).

Subspace Jammer doesn't have any restrictions.

Shipyards (level 1) should get the OpS restriction. They should obsolete the minors shipyards too (Romulan already does).

Utopia Planitia obsoletes the Mk II shipyards. Also, it should get the OpE restriction.

Is it intended that level 2 shipyards can only build ships up to tech level 6 (except Romulan and Minor, level 8)? Because level 3 shipyards are only available at tech level 9. Tech level 7 ships will be obsolete by then...

The Klingon level 3 shipyard doesn't obsolete the level 2.

Level 4 Fleetyards obsolete the level 3.

Minor Advanced Shipyard is available at tech level 8 instead of 9.

Horta Ore Extraction Plant
Grants Dilithium but the system does not have the special.

Lissepian Commercial Hub
Grants Raw Materials but the system has Dilithium, not Raw Materials.

Mintakan Education Centre
Has Maintenance Cost but no Energy Cost. Swapped?



TechTrees.xml

There are 2 techtree definitions for the Rak(h)osans:

- <TechTree Civilization="RAKHOSANS">
<ProductionFacilities />
- <Buildings>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SECURITY_BUREAU</Building>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SURVEILLANCE_SYSTEM</Building>

- <TechTree Civilization="RAKOSANS">
<ProductionFacilities />
- <Buildings>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SECURITY_BUREAU</Building>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SURVEILLANCE_SYSTEM</Building>
<Building>MINOR_ADVANCED_GRAVITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_AIR_COMMAND_HQ</Building>
<Building>MINOR_BASIC_SHELTERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_CIVILIAN_RESERVE</Building>
<Building>MINOR_RACE_COMBAT_GRID</Building>
<Building>MINOR_FIGHTER_SQUADRONS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_GRAVITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_HARDENED_BUNKERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_HEAVY_BUNKERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_MISSILE_SILO</Building>
<Building>MINOR_MOLECULAR_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_POSITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_RACE_TACHYON_DEFENSE_GRID</Building>
<Building>MINOR_RESISTANCE_CELLS</Building>

I understand it. There's going to be contradiction in order to satisfy gameplay. In order to keep it simple, all ships require dilithium. If Romulan ships were somehow exempt for this, then perhaps they should start mining black holes in order to replace it to keep the ships even.

Besides, we have no idea how the singularities are created - perhaps that process is driven by dilithium? No one knows.



I understand what you're saying perfectly. Unfortunately, that will be the inefficient way to earn credits. In the original game, and from what MOE is saying, will also occur in Supremacy, is that there is a default build order called "Trade Goods". The only thing that this build order does is generate one credit per production point per turn (IIRC). Clearly, it'd be more efficient to have "Trade Goods" be "building" for 5 turns at 500 industry (2500 credits) instead of building 5 farms that cost 500 industry each and then scrapping them for 25% (5*500/4=625 credits). Thus, it's not an exploit.

I realize you're just reporting. I'm also just explaining.

You do realise the *scale* you're talking, right? 1 Credit per build point per turn? Can you project what kind of income you're talking? Also, don't forget that *pop* generates Credits per turn too (and Morale affects it too IIRC), so there you have another doubling effect of sorts. That's a huge income.
Also notice that there is an exploit regardless, because you can always scrap structures already built (that you don't use), and gain credits for it. Useless minors' structures for example, that they built.

As for the Romulans, their ships could just cost a lot more Deuterium and/or Raw Materials, which would make them different from other races. Not saying I would want that, just offering other possibilities.

Fixed.


It's meant to be a Klingon structure. Fixed.


Fixed, but only coz it's a technicality. It now needs tech 1 in Computers, Construction, and Energy...but you always start off with those researched anyways.


They obsolete correctly in my files. I must have updated this since I sent you the files, but I don't remember doing so...


Obviously I got the requirements backwards. Fixed.


Like the Cardassian scanners, it DOES have this already in my files, but again I don't remember changing it recently. Wierd. The Anti-Proton scanner has a 70% detection rate.


It shouldn't matter; Mike says he made scan strengths non-accumulable - so more ships doesn't mean higher scan strengths. The one per system restriction IS the default though, so I don't understand what the problem is. They all have it already set as standard. In fact, due to a bug, I can't turn it off!


Dafedz has bumped it up to 45 energy in the database and so have I.


I've removed the Home System restriction.


Enemy empires have no way of communicating to your individual systems, so they can't be bribed.


No, it's meant to be Native System. Fixed.


Just ignore the One Per System restriction for the time being.


I can't do anything about that, Mike will need to add the option in the editor.


As i've said, the One Per System restriction is buggy. The other restriction it's supposed to have (x per Empire) isn't available in the editor.


I fixed that a couple of days ago.


It's currently set as an upgrade of the Mark II shipyard, that's why. Utopia Planitia is still a bit in limbo with it's implementation. It has the One Per Empire restriction now though.


Damn, I thought i'd fixed that a while ago. I'll have a look at it tomorrow as it'll mean updating quite a few structures at the same time (To ensure consistency)


Fixed.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The Fleetyards are just a gigantic shipyard, so of course they obsolete any existing shipyards.


As above, i'll fix them with the other shipyards tomorrow.


Now it does.


Fixed.


Unswapped. As a rule of thumb, buildings shouldn't have a maintenance cost.


Wierd...I'll have a look at that.

I know, that's why I specifically stated it doesn't really matter *currently*. But in case of mods, or intentional changes to the initial conditions, might as well do it now instead of later, as it might get forgotten. I did try to convey that in my post.



What I meant was that they get first the standard Listening Post, which upgrades to the Isolinear Scanner only. With Energy 5 they get the Card Listening Post, which only obsoletes the Subspace Scanner, and only upgrades to the Card Isolinear Scanner. Basically, they're tretaed as separate paths, while they do the exact same thing - one being better than the other.



I asked, *like* the AP, should the *Card* structures *also* get it?



Sigh. I know it's the default. I made it a point to specifically state it several times in my post. You said it was going to be "fixed" eventually. So that means eventually it will sometime in the future *not* be the default. I'm pointing it out now to save future problems. It should be easy enough to do in the editor. I'm just pointing it out, not forcing you to do anything



Oooh, how generous an increase... Joking. I thought it was actually a mistake by one order of magnitude, looking at the tech restrictions and its cost...



And non-natives do?!



Ok.


---



Tech Curve (Backwards vs Supreme): does it have any effect on research (output)? Or will any bronze age minor research exactly the same way say the Cytherians?

The Isolinear Scanner should upgrade to the Fed Gravitic Snesor Array.

The Rom Imperial Mining Program doesn't have any restrictions, not even the Raw Materials bonus.
Also, its upgrade, the Headquarters, does have restrictions - some of them being Moons and Asteroids. That is Moons AND Asteroids, as in, both must exist (same issue as the Solar Panel Array and the Purification Works). Not sure that's the intention. Though it should be largely irrelevant, as most systems will have moons. There are other structures in the same situation.

Rom Trade Ministry, Muster Station, State Broadcast Bureau, Subspace telescope, Imperial Clinic, Particle Simulators, Orbital Battery and Fast Response Plasma Net don't have any restrictions.
The Tal'Shiar Headquarters should have the OpE restriction.

Dom Quantum Simulators and Purging Centre don't have any restrictions.

Dom Quantum Batteries requires Orbital Battery, but if OB is scrapped or destroyed, nothing happens to QB. Just an observation.

BTW, Romulan ships are generally slower than everyone else's. That's another gameplay aspect that could be explained by a different approach.



Here's another conundrum: upgrading your industry structures vs building trade goods. Upgrading takes time and increases industry output. Trade goods generate credits, which in turn can be used to speed up production. There's bound to be one of them that is more efficient, making the other all but obsolete.

I'm kinda lazy and don't feel like formatting quotes.

Point A: Romulan ships don't really need to be faster. They cloak, among other things. The Feds focus their ship designs to shields and propulsion and sensors. The Klingons focus on weapons, weapons, and maybe a little bit into weapons. See how this goes? What needs to happen is that the ships themselves, when compared to their counterparts of the other races, are balanced and that the costs are similar. Removing the dilitium requirement would make it much more difficult to balance the costs of Romulan ships. How much is one dilithium worth when compared to raw materials, officers, and industry cost? What should Romulans do with the dilithium that they do mine in the game?

Keep it simple: require Romulan ships to be built with a dilithium cost like every other ship. Again, just because there is a cost of dilithium to build the ship does not mean that the dilithium is in the ship. If it makes you sleep better at night, you can write a blurb about how dilithium is required in order to initialize the singularity process at the shipyard or somesuch. *shrugs* It's science fiction; make something up, because I'm relatively certain there's no canon-official process on how they are generated.

Point B: Upgrading your buildings will always be beneficial. I still don't understand how scrapping buildings for credits is an exploit. It makes sense that you would receive a return on the resources used to build something. The time you spent building the structure is more valuable then the credits you'll receive from scrapping it. Also keep in mind that the Trade Goods build order doesn't exist yet, so there will still need to be some rebalancing done.

Non-natives are minor races that have joined your empire. Individual systems belong to your empire and cannot defect to another empire. They can claim independance from you if their morale plummets (But you can get them back via subjugation) or they can be invaded by another empire. Other empires cannot simply bribe your systems though - and neither can you do this to theirs. The minor races are different because they choose who they want to join - or leave; your systems are the babies of your people, so no matter how unhappy they are, they wouldn't defect.

I have no idea if Mike plans to change the system or not; it was like this in BOTF, and that system worked well enough. Mike may change it so that systems that have declared their independance are added to diplomacy, or that every system is contactable, but I have no idea how difficult it would be to program either of these in. It may even be impossible. Ultimately it's up to him whether he decides to persue it or not.


I *believe* that the system works based on how much emphasis is placed on actually conducting research, rather than by the research output, ie. Supreme races will put a lot of population blocks into their research structures, whilst backwards races will pretty much ignore research. The physical output per structure remains the same though. Don't quote me on this though, because Mike hasn't explained it me either.


I just did an overhaul of all of the sensor-type structures in the game. I did some mini-rewrites on some of the descriptions as well. All of the uberscanners now also have a Native System restriction. If I can't set it to X Per Empire, at least this will be a bit of a restriction on it.


One of the things that I would like to have in the editor is an and/or setting - that way I could set it as <a or b>, not just <a and b>. I've ensured both the Imperial Mining Program and the Headquarters now only have a raw material requirement. I also slightly modified both of their descriptions.


Rom Trade Ministry, Muster Station, Imperial Clinics, Particle Simulators, Fast-Response Plasma Net, Quantum Simulators, and Purging Centre now have a Native System restriction.
The State Broadcast Bureau and Tal'Shiar Headquarters now have a One Per Empire restriction.


There's nothing I can do about that. The same thing would happen for any structure that has such a requirement for another building but doesn't also obsolete it. Making the Quantum Batteries obsolete the Orbital batteries isn't an option either because in their current form they provide a percentage bonus to the existing anti-ship weapons. A bonus to nothing is still nothing afterall. We could change the Quantum Batteries to a specific Orbital Battery upgrade with a physical anti-ship bonus, but that still doesn't solve the cause of the original problem. I'll PM Mike about it.


From what I remember from TNG, it's canon that Romulan ships are slightly slower than Federation ships. I believe a Warbird was capable of keeping pace with a Galaxy, but it couldn't overtake one nor could it keep up the speed for as long. Romulan ships are known for their superior maneouverability though, but the Klingons are even better in that area.

As a rule of thumb, Romulan ships should be defensively weaker than the ships of the other races, because they are designed purely to ambush and obliterate the enemy before the enemy has a chance to even raise their defences - there is therefore no need for Romulan ships to have the amounts of shielding or armor that the other races have. That should technically mean that Romulan ships have a lower build cost, but i'm not sure if Dafedz has actually taken this into account or not in the database coz I hadn't really thought about checking it before. By the way, I wrote all this before I read Azhdeen's point which also states all this, so that's two of us thinking along the same lines.


Possibly, but seeing as each system has varying populations and needs, each situation is going to be diferent. Players would need to be spending hours per turn to really find out which situation is best, and no matter how obsessive we obviously all are, I doubt there are many people who also have that level of patience to carry it though.


One thing that i'm not sure you guys are aware of, ships won't cost 1 Dilithium in future; me and Dafedz have been working on a new update to vary the Dilithium costs based on the size and tech level of the ship in question. I believe the costs range from 1-10 Dilithium per ship now.

Hmm, yeah, I know, I went through the database But thanks for the pointers
Anyways, I don't want to derail into combat, as it is not in the game yet. But their cloaking ability for speed, they'll be easy to catch and destroy once decloaked/detected. But that's for later I guess.



How so? It's not like stronger ships cost more Dilithium than weaker ones... all ships cost 1 Dil, period. And:



I did mention some posts ago that the Reman Dilithium Mines should be a start-of-the-game structure IMO, and that it could have some energy output to help the Romulans early game. Now, make the DRM produce *only* energy (be an energy structure instead of a Dil mine), and you'd be solving the energy problem too. Make all structures that mine Dilithium for the Romulans generate energy, as they are hungry for it. They'd be mining Dilithium, but for other purposes. They may even have Dil (with the Refinery), if they want it. They could even have faster ships late game, that would cost Dil.
How is that for making up stuff? Again, I'm not saying it should be this way (or any other way). I'm just saying that new avenues of approach could be considered, even to make the game more varied. Having some radical differences in some races could be interesting, instead of just slight variations. It could increase the longevity of the game.



Which would get spent each time one is initialized.



Yes, if something more beneficial is not available. Continuously. Like Trade Goods.



It is only more valuable if you have other things to build. If you have nothing to build (not really that unusual - in fact, that's the whole reason for Trade Goods, yes?), time doesn't matter and it's not really a resource. Notice that due to the change from 10 base industry to #pop base industry, you'll always have a large industry base, regardless if you have pop assigned to industry or not.
Also, I'm sure you've already realised that a 1:1 ratio is not going to happen most likely, as it'd be abusive; not even a 4:1 (which would equal the 25% credits), so it *will* be more productive to build structures for scrapping, and receiving credits in exchange for *nothing* (which is what structures cost - except for time of course, but that's irrelevant if like I said it's more profitable). That's an exploit.
I'd also not forget scrapping useless structures from joined/conquered systems. The specials are usually expensive to build, hence return a bunch of credits. For nothing.



But that's precisely why I'm bringing this up. So it is taken into account when working the system out. Better than having to redesign it because of something that wasn't thought out in advance.

Won't that make them better at industry (build more ships...) and intel, and such? It might be a subversive side effect.



That's why I've been saying that % bonuses are tricky. Being an upgrade would probably make more sense too.



I'm guessing they ignore the opponent's shields in the first (or more) round of fire, in combat, right? That makes the Cardassians tougher against them, as they have better hulls.



AFAIR, they don't, the Klingons do. Theirs are almost as expensive as the Fed's. Wasn't it the Dominion that was supposed to be the "swarm" type of empire BTW?



Hmm, what will apply to one, will apply to all systems, it's not really pop-dependent.

Possibly in the early game, but since they're not researching, they won't gain access to even level 2 facilities for a long time, so conversely they'll need to put more into food, construction, and energy just to keep pace with the other races. And chances are, if they really are such a backward race, they won't gain access to ships and such anyways.


No. In BOTF, Cloaked ships got a free turn. Enemy ships still had their shields up, but they literally stood there and did nothing - your ships wouldn't even attempt to evade the attack. A lot of people complained about this, so we don't want cloaked ships to gain free turns. If both ships were cloaked, then the cloaks cancelled out and combat would occur as if there weren't any cloaks.

Instead, we want to make it work in the following way: Cloaked ships will attack, but they will only fire half of their weapons and their shields will be down. (Since cloaking takes massive amounts of energy and it takes time to charge weapons and raise shields) During this first turn, non-cloaked ships will evade the attack, but their success will be based on their level of training. They will only return fire with one or two of their weapons, (Since they were caught off-guard and the weapons weren't charged) but this too will be based on crew experience. Since the cloaked ships won't have their shields up though, there's a chance that the defending ships will score some lucky hits. Therefore, crew training will be much more important, because well-trained crews will be better able to evade attacks, they will be able to charge their weapons faster. and will fire them more accurately. Since Wolfe's combat system isn't turn-based, we find it easiest to count time - so one trn is eg. 10 seconds. So all of the above would happen during the first 10 seconds, then combat would occur as normal. Ships will also be able to recloak during combat (This wasn't possible in BOTF)


Some of the cost reduction is negated by the sheer size of the Romulan ships - Warbirds for instance are roughly the size of Deep Space Nine. The Dominion do employ swarm tactics, but only with their smallest ships, ie. the Domion "Bug" ship. Their larger capital ships are truly gigantic behemoths; it would be difficult - and pointless - to swarm your enemies with something of that kind of size when chances are you only need one. I suppose I could nudge Dafedz into reducing the costs of the Romulan ships a bit.


Upgrading will ultimately result in more production of trade goods anyway, so you'd want to upgrade, even it's only for that reason. You seem to be the only person - so far - that thinks this will be an exploit though. Since there's not going to be an instant-buy function, it doesn't matter how much money you have.

That's something I meant to say a few days ago. Credits won't have quite the same impact as it did in the original game. Not all races can be bribed with money and you can't use credits to make instant rice, let alone instant starships.

The most valuable resource in the entire game of Supremacy is the turns themselves, because everything will cost them. This is an important, if subtle distinction when compared to BotF. You'll want to ensure everything is upgraded and is as efficient as possible so that you maximize your productivity during a turn. You'll want to make sure your turns are the limiting factor (you can't speed up how fast the generate) and so that you are not limited by your dilithium, officers, or raw materials. Even if scrapping buildings for credit is somehow an exploit (I don't believe it is), there are far better things you could be doing with your turns in a system.

I'm just thinking that the non-expansionist races will not go anywhere with just a few labs, and even the expansionist ones, well, they'll either use their pop in research, or in industry - meaning, if they choose research, they'll expand slower.



So canon was not followed Cloaked ships then, not only have lower defenses intrinsically and are slower (both by design), they also have their shields lowered - while their targets have their shields raised... hmm.



I'll look at their stats again to see how that translates into the game. I don't think I've seen any significant differences, but I could be wrong.



Well, only the 3 of us have actually discussed this Not that I think it's a vote or anything, I'm just pointing out stuff. I have been right in the past, right?
Again, about the money, you can't insta-buy, but you can speed things up, which means you use industry to gain credits which is used to "increase" industry. Did you ever wonder why the costs of structures have such exponential increases with tech level? Might be worth it considering it.

That may be so, but i've been on the forums rather longe rthan you .Iceman - no one else to my knowledge has even mentioned the potential for it be an exploit, let alone properly discussed it. Ok, you can argue that maybe that's simply because people haven't thought about it before, but there's also the counter argument that you really are the only person who thinks that it is...not that i'm trying to insult you or anything by saying that. It's just a possibility, that's all.

Anyways, if an expansionist race was to concentrate on research, then they would gain access to better ships and structures - which would allow them to expand faster. It's a case of short-term loss for long-term gain. And that's precisely what the empires - and the players - will be doing anyways. I don't see this as a problem. Ok, some people may decide to expand straight away while others concentrate on research. Personally i'd go for research, but everyone is different. There's no one strategy that will work every time; that's the beauty of a game like Supremacy, no matter how well you plan something, there's still always the possibility that you could be beaten. And that's what makes it fun as well.

Hehe, don't worry, you're not insulting me. I know I'm right, and you'll know it too in the future
Yes, it's true that I haven't been on the forums for long. And come to think of it, I won't really pursue this issue anymore because it might look like I'd be insulting anyone. I just thought I'd give you guys a heads-up. Anyways, as long as Mike is aware of the possible issue - so that he can accomodate for it when trade goods are implemented - it's all good. Because, it might not be an issue for you, but it might be for him. Since none of the other guys in the team commented...



What tech level is that (the ships)? How long will it take them (with few planets) to reach it?
How long do you take to get to say tech level 5 (without an AI properly implemented that is)? Just to get a notion of how you plan to play a slow expansion. Oh, and you do realise you'll be out of systems to colonize if you're just a bit too slow, don't you? That's the fulcrum of a 4X game after all.
Anyways, your argument could be much more convincing if colony ships actually would cost pop to build - then you'd have to make choices between strategies to employ. As it is, not really. But I've already mentioned that before.

You might be forgetting that credits are used to pay for the upkeep of... ships/fleets? Isn't that one of the primary functions? Maybe I'm just remembering wrong?
If it is though, do you still maintain that it doesn't matter how much money you have? Provided you have the other resources available, I have a hard time agreeing with that... and since you have a boatload of money, you can keep *all* your shipyards doing double overtime.
As for bribes, from what I've read, some races also require quite a bit of money, so it'll probably even out with those that can't be bribed.



Just like with any other TBS game... Sup is no different. Not everything will cost turns though, but I'm not going to be picky.



Wishful thinking is all nice and good, and that's precisely why I'm bringing up possible disruptions to it. And I guess that's one of the questions, if trade goods will make upgrading industry less of a necessity.

Anyways, we could be here repeating ourselves to death, and we wouldn't get anywhere.

how about colonies cost pop to found (the turn they are founded, those subtracted pop then slowly "reaches" the target colony and helps building it up, if suppression or blockade happens, the subtracted pop will return to the systems they came from minus losses by enemy interceptor fleets) rather than the colony ships whose function restrains to laying out the flight routes for the colonists and building up supply lines and stations for the whole process of colonization plus of course do the initial terraforming.
With that you also avoid (morale) problems of losing a colony ship by a neutron star, a random event or enemies. Colonies still can be suppressed (the higher the suppression level, the higher the morale costs if you decide not to abandon the colony which should be an option for just-created colonies) in development and pop growth by raiding the colony's sector or setting up a blockade (if not wipe it out in the first place but if you just got destroyers, the other tactic should apply better).

That also adds a strategic dimension as to keep the distance short and colonize from "core" systems, i.e. systems which are located next to owned pop-rich star systems. A race-specific distance function determines pop drain from other systems which also depends on their current per-turn growth and max pop current pop ratio (the race-specific majority of people are more inclined to "hop into" the system next door/sector than to borderline systems at the far-off outer areas which are more insecure and less protected). Quick-colonization of a larger closely-connected area of star systems within a few sectors without an equivalent amount of heavy pop-supplying systems in close distance then thins out pop supply and leads to slow pop growth on those systems. Additionally there could be an option to fill up a special colony ship class (a separate type of colony ship which costs a lot more plus instant population from the system it was built) with pop at construction which could also be labelled "expeditionary colony ship". It should cost that much that it only potentially pays off if you want to undergo some risks and chances that you might find a worthy minor there or get a quick supply bridge to invade an otherwise too-far major that way.

Besides, early expansion also inherits the danger of being pinned down or declared war upon (morale effects to the Federation) by an hostile enemy race or more-so a minor like the Sheliak who then raid and plunder your defenseless small colonies. Chances of meeting such a race are higher the wilder you expand.

As for the credits and upgrade issue, well there's a reason why trade goods in BotE are next-to-negligible in their output effect and multiple builds within a turn haven't been implemented. When producing trade goods or consumer goods there are options to limit the output via saturation or even worse via habituation. Those trade and consumer goods have buyers. Those buyers plan with them. Changing the build queue and thus the order in which those goods are produced (namely then when you think you need those to do your possible exploit tactic) each turn should effectively make them produce less usable credits in the end. Much like the tribunal issue where you need lag time to get the thing started. It's not like people buy cars just because there's some over-production. They buy it cause you lower the price because of the surplus which then leads to less income=credits, welcome to the saturation effect. This can all be balanced in due time.

Checked your lastest update last night MoE, and a few observations. You didn't fix the ships as I reported in my huge post last monday IIRC, nor the remaining minors that still are set as humans, etc - maybe you didn't read that post? Just checking. The Cardassian colony ships problem should really be fixed before the next release, and it's a really simple thing to fix (just setting Work Capacity). There's lot of smallish fixed there, but important ones.

Your changes to the pop cap of planets, hmmm, you simply added 10 to each planet, 20 to giants. That change didn't follow the "spirit" of the caps, you've just made a Tiny Hostile _triple_ in max pop... IMO you should have used a multiplicative factor, not additive. It's not easy though, and there was actually a reason for those (default) values.

About shipyards, I haven't quite figured out why Fleetyards have a Shipbuilding bonus, instead of being integrated into the Efficiency of the yard. Besides the fact that they'd be >100% that is, but that is purely a display issue (which results in production over 100% anyway), and there would be no need for the bonus if the other shipyards would have thei Efficiency lowered. One less bonus, more efficient, more streamlined.

Also, is it intended that the Card shipyard III has energy cst 75 (instead of 100) *and* 6 slots (instead of 4, effectively having as many as the respective fleetyard)?

Minors shipyards are still better than Fed and Rom ones (and potentilly better than others, especially Klin). Level III is even available sooner. They can't build tech 12 ships though.

Klin shipyards are strange. They have energy problems with the I (but good efficiency), a regular II, and efficiency problems with the III (but regular energy). It might be to simulate canon, but the energy thing should be regulated externally, since the game uses energy structures.

---

Regarding a few earlier debates:

- Orbital Batteries can be buil by *all* minors, regardless of tech curve: why do minors have more defensive structures (2xGdCbt, 3xGdDef) than empires? Why aren't these aggregated into 1 GdCbt and 1 GdDef, and the OB is set to not be universal, and added to each minor explicitly? It'd even reduce the size of the database, which is desired. Pretty mcu the same could be said about %ASDef structures.

- Romulan ships: maybe they could use up double Deuterium when cloaked? Regardless if they take Dil to build or not, heh.

- Slow colonization: Let's not forget that Fed colony ships are _slooow_ , and like I mentioned previously, any colony ship II and III will most likely be useless for colonization, as when you get them the galaxy should pretty much be colonized. Maybe the Delta Quadrant can have some uninhabited systems, but that's a huge maybe IMO. (random galaxy map please? )

- Minors tech curves: If I annex a Backwards minor into my empire, they'll all of a sudden start researching like crazy if I put them in a lab! Insta-geniuses, doesn't make much sense.