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Ships stats
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Author:  Iceman [ 16 Aug 2010, 17:56 ]
Post subject:  Ships stats
The Dominion Battle Cruiser I's stats seem a bit off. Build Cost 650 and Fuel Capacity 10? The former looks too low when compared to other, less powerful ships of the same tech level (was that supposed to be 1650?), and the latter seems too high for a tech level zero ship.
Author:  Iceman [ 17 Aug 2010, 10:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Dom Fleetyard: BuilfEfficiency 1,5 -> 1.5

Fed Transport III: Pre-Reqs are not really necessary

Fed Hospital Ships II: obsoletes Hospital Ship I - is it supposed to be a "civilian" ship?

Fed Heavy Destroyer II: should upgrade to Fed Escort

Rom Science Ship I: D''Raxinor -> D'Raxinor

All Klingon, Romulan and most Dominion ships don't have obsoletion/upgrade paths set

empty line 21082

Acamarian Raider II should not obsolete Acamarian Raider I ?

Andorian Warcruiser II should not obsolete Andorian Warcruiser I ?
Author:  Iceman [ 17 Aug 2010, 16:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
edited previous post, slight correction.


Klingon Starbases I and II: no obsoletion/upgrade paths set
Author:  Matress_of_evil [ 17 Aug 2010, 17:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
The numbers used in the Dominion Battlecruiser are same as in Dafedz's Database. The low build cost reflects the lower tech requirement. Fuel capacity is a little high though. 8 or 9 would work better.

Dom Fleetyard: has already been fixed. I'm still working on the files.

Fed Transport II: The Transports, Colony Ships, and Hospital ships are supposed to auto-upgrade. The obsoletion path is there to reflect this.

Fed Heavy Destroyer II: upgrade added.

Rom Science Ship I: name fixed.

All Klingon, Romulan and most Dominion ships don't have obsoletion/upgrade paths set: work in progress.

Acamarian Raider II/Andorian Warcruiser II: Not sure what to do about thse. I'm not sure how the AI will handle upgrading ships. Might be easier if we set ALL minors ships to auto-upgrade.

Klingon Starbases I and II: As with Klingon, Romulan and most Dominion ships, the paths are a work in progress.
Author:  Iceman [ 17 Aug 2010, 17:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Matress_of_evil wrote:
The numbers used in the Dominion Battlecruiser are same as in Dafedz's Database. The low build cost reflects the lower tech requirement.


Well, it's a battle cruiser, and most (if not all) other level zero ships cost a bit more than this one. For reference, the Klingon Battle Cruiser I, even though tech level 1 (which is hardly a factor, since tech zero or 1 are basically the same for all purposes - you start at level 1), costs 1850 (and they have some cheap ships).

Quote:
Fuel capacity is a little high though. 8 or 9 would work better.


Maybe even 6 or 7. the K BC mentioned above has 6.

Quote:
Acamarian Raider II/Andorian Warcruiser II: Not sure what to do about thse. I'm not sure how the AI will handle upgrading ships. Might be easier if we set ALL minors ships to auto-upgrade.


Or simply not have minors upgrade their ships. Make them not have more than 2 warships of each class (or make such cases different classes), and 1 of each civilian; colony ships, let's wait and see how they'll be handled.
Author:  vjeko1701 [ 17 Aug 2010, 17:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Quote:
Quote:
Acamarian Raider II/Andorian Warcruiser II: Not sure what to do about thse. I'm not sure how the AI will handle upgrading ships. Might be easier if we set ALL minors ships to auto-upgrade.


Or simply not have minors upgrade their ships. Make them not have more than 2 warships of each class (or make such cases different classes), and 1 of each civilian; colony ships, let's wait and see how they'll be handled.



Ok, I agree. The minors should have two - three different military ship classes and shared non combat ships.
Author:  Iceman [ 18 Aug 2010, 11:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Re Dom BC I

For reference, all other level zero/1 Dom ships' costs:
Attack Ship I: 1680 [level 1]
Colony Ship I: 1240
Construction Ship: 950
Probe Ship: 720
Scout I: 2840
Transport I: 920

So it is the cheapest of all Dom ships, even though it's a battle cruiser... and it only costs 30 raw materials, only the Probe Ship beats it. Doesn't sound like a battle cruiser to me. At all. It takes ~1/3 the time to build a Klingon BC I, like mentioned above.
The cost curve, it's going to be a headache.

Oh, and scouts having such high costs, hmm.
Author:  Matress_of_evil [ 18 Aug 2010, 13:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
The high cost of the scouts is because they're supposed to have uber efficient engines. They also have top-of-the-line sensor systems, higher stealth ratings to avoid enemy scans, and generally better defensive systems and manoeuvrability than their counterparts. All of this gives them higher build costs.

These benefits also mean the engines, sensors, and defensive systems are extremely high maintenance, because they are extremely advanced systems that focus in specific areas rather than being generalists that are good in a variety of areas (Engine efficiency for increased range at the expense of speed, sensor power for stronger scans at the expense of sensor range etc), and all this means they are less reliable than older, more reliable technologies, incurring greater, long term costs.

As for the Battlecruiser, i'll get Dafedz to comment.
Author:  dafedz [ 18 Aug 2010, 15:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
A significant point regarding cost. The balancing of the ship table should reflect only medium ship cost for the Dominion. The Federation are at the high end of that scale with the highest cost, second are the Romulans, third the Cardassians, fourth the Dominion, with the Klingons at the bottom with the cheapest ships. So yes the Dominion Battlecruiser I was set a little low to be fair, and should be higher than 650. I've adjusted this (now 840), and a few other similar cost discrepancies that weren't quite on the mark, so thanks for the heads up :)

As for fuel, the Dominion's rating is among the worst in the game, alongside the Fedz, so 10 is about right here. (the Fed BC I is also 10)

http://www.trekmania.net/temp_files/new ... ncing2.htm

********
Moe, this is a breakdown of the cost changes I've suggested so that you know:

FED CONSTRUCTION SHIP II - 2880
HEAVY DESTROYER II - 13,210
ESCORT (Defiant) - 26,270

CARDASSIANS
HEAVY DESTROYER II - 10,010
CRUISER III - 8650

ROMULANS
HEAVY DESTROYER - 18,320

KLINGONS
TRANSPORT II - 2480
SURVEYOR I - 580
BATTLECRUISER I - 800
BATTLECRUISER II - 4040
BATTLECRUISER III - 8240
SURVEYOR III - 8225
DESTROYER II - 3880
DESTROYER III - 6220
DESTROYER IV - 12,010

DOMINION
PROBE SHIP I - 620
PROBE SHIP II - 3880
BATTLECRUISER I - 840
SCOUT III - 15,630
ATTACK SHIP IV - 14,690
BATTLESHIP III - 25,450
Author:  Iceman [ 18 Aug 2010, 17:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Matress_of_evil wrote:
The high cost of the scouts is because they're supposed to have uber efficient engines. They also have top-of-the-line sensor systems, higher stealth ratings to avoid enemy scans, and generally better defensive systems and manoeuvrability than their counterparts. All of this gives them higher build costs.


I'll reserve comments on the tactical usefulness of this for later, but as far as strategic value goes, this means the Scout will mostly not be used for exploration. Not at that cost. Any other ship will do actually, and cheaper. As for surveillance, survey ships at ~1/4 the cost look like a very good compromise.
And yes, the maintenance will be a killer.
Author:  Iceman [ 18 Aug 2010, 17:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
dafedz wrote:
A significant point regarding cost. The balancing of the ship table should reflect only medium ship cost for the Dominion. The Federation are at the high end of that scale with the highest cost, second are the Romulans, third the Cardassians, fourth the Dominion, with the Klingons at the bottom with the cheapest ships. So yes the Dominion Battlecruiser I was set a little low to be fair, and should be higher than 650. I've adjusted this (now 840), and a few other similar cost discrepancies that weren't quite on the mark, so thanks for the heads up :)


No prob. It's still a bargain though :wink:
Again, remember that you start at tech level 1, so having a difference in costs in tech level zero and 1 ships makes no sense. Look at the Dom Attack Ship I, their Destroyer I, with a cost of 1680; that's double the cost of their (Battle) Cruiser I. Both have their pros and cons, but they don't justify a doubling in cost.
The tables, well, I'd look at the game instead. :wink:

Quote:
As for fuel, the Dominion's rating is among the worst in the game, alongside the Fedz, so 10 is about right here. (the Fed BC I is also 10)


Worst? Again, it depends on your PoV. To me, having a higher fuel cost is a benefit, not a disadvantage. The Fuel + Range thingy?
Fuel Cost != fuel efficiency. The more fuel ships have, the more flexible they are. You pay for all the fuel you use anyway, don't forget that. Whether you pay it up front at construction time, or later when used, is irrelevant. The difference is, the more of it you have, the further _outside_ your range you can go.
I'm not sure how you can actually differentiate the attribution of values to Range and Fuel, given that they're basically the same thing. But that's another story. :wink:
Author:  Matress_of_evil [ 18 Aug 2010, 23:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Thanks for the heads up Daf, i've implemented the changes, along with a few others where the implemented stats differed from those in the database. This was especially true with the Fed Construction Ship II, where virtually every stat was wrong lol.
Author:  Iceman [ 19 Aug 2010, 17:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
dafedz wrote:
The Federation are at the high end of that scale with the highest cost, second are the Romulans, third the Cardassians, fourth the Dominion, with the Klingons at the bottom with the cheapest ships.


Actually, there are still some incongruencies in the list.
The Dom still has the most expensive colony ship I for example (and with best hull/shields). The construction ships I for the Kli and Card and Dom also don't quite follow this rule. The Cardassian Destroyer I is too cheap.

Not that some of these cost differences actually mean much, given that it only affects construction time, so +20 isn't really relevant in most situations.


Quote:
As for fuel, the Dominion's rating is among the worst in the game, alongside the Fedz, so 10 is about right here. (the Fed BC I is also 10)


Not really, not comparing to the other ship classes. The Dom has fuel ratings comparable to the Cards and Roms, not the Feds. The Cruiser I is a fluke, and hence I mentioned it.
There are some incongruencies with fuel ratings in colony ships I, construction ships and transport ships I.

Other stuff:
range for the Dom construction ship should probably be higher
speed of the Dom Attack Ship I should probably be 2
shield/hull for all Dom ships should be checked

Also, some empires have Scouts I at level zero, others at level 1, and the Romulas at level 2 - which means they can't build it from the start, and its cost goes throught the roof, even though the stats are mostly level 1's (except, and most notably, Shields)
Cruisers also are either level zero or level 1, as pointed out above. Cost.

There's more, but I gotta go now.
Author:  Iceman [ 20 Aug 2010, 11:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Matress_of_evil wrote:
These benefits also mean the engines, sensors, and defensive systems are extremely high maintenance, because they are extremely advanced systems that focus in specific areas rather than being generalists that are good in a variety of areas (Engine efficiency for increased range at the expense of speed,


Actually, Scouts have high speeds.
And Surveyors also have good scanners, yet they're the cheapest ships, with low maintenance.
Scouts do have some of the best shields/hull ratings, and the highest crews by far (though that won't matter much). Kind of odd.

The first Scouts for the empires, their level and costs:
Kli 0 2220
Dom 0 2840
Card 1 0 (missing cost and maintenance)
Fed 1 3655
Rom 2 3845
The cost difference is significant, even among the same tech level (Kli vs Dom); not so much between Fed and Rom though, considering that one is level 1 and the other 2.

The same exercise for Cruisers I:
Dom 0 840
Fed 0 920
Kli 1 860
Card 1 880
Rom 1 900
The level 1 ships all cost less than the level zero Fed ship. That's inconsistent with the above. They all have similar costs, though they're different levels.
Author:  Iceman [ 20 Aug 2010, 17:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Fed Colony Ship I: maneuverability is 3, but for CS II and III is 2.

Fed Heavy Destroyer II: should upgrade to Escort.

Fed Scout I: remove Stealth, it was used for testing.


Speed of ships

The speed progression in some Cruisers is kind of abrupt, specifically at level 6~7. Speed 3 should probably be upped to 4, in the Fed Cruiser IV, Card Cruiser III and Klin Battle Cruiser IV (the previous models have speed 3, the next 5).

The Klin Surveyor II, at tech level 2, has speed 4, which seems excessive.

Romulan ships are supposed to be slower, but the Colony Ship I has speed 1 - which puts the Roms at a disadvantage when colonizing. It should be 2, like all others (except the Dom, which is 3 and should probably be lowered to 2). Rom Transport and Science ships have pretty standard speeds too (not slow); I think the slower ships should be only cloak-capable, combat ships. Utility vessels should be pretty much even for all empires.

The Rom Destroyer II has speed 1, while the I has 2. They're probably swapped, but only the Colony Ship I actually has a speed of 1.

The Rom Command II has speed 3, while the I has 3. They're probably swapped.
Author:  Iceman [ 21 Aug 2010, 10:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Oops, forgot the Construction Ships.
The Klingon one has speed 3, while the norm is 2 (The Dominion one is 2 too). The Romulans one is 1.
Author:  Iceman [ 21 Aug 2010, 16:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Speaking of construction ships, when you build a station, you actually pay a Raw Materials cost twice - the one from the Construction Ship, and the one from the Station. The Stations shouldn't probably have a RM cost, since the ship itself is converted into the Station; plus, the Construction Ships already have a very high RM cost to reflect this.
For example, a Fed CS I (150 RM) builds an OP I (172 RM); it actually costs a total of 322 RM. That's the equivalent of 8 or so Cruisers I!!

Mike, maybe instead of displaying the % of completion when building a Station, it could show the number of turns instead?


BTW, don't know if ship costs have taken into consideration the fact that there are no ship upgrades, as opposed to facilities and structures which do upgrade? Hopefully the cost curve isn't determined the same way. Because in an upgrade, you only "pay" for _half_ the build cost of the item being upgraded; since ships do not upgrade...
This should also be taken into consideration in the costs of the first structure in an upgrade line.
Author:  HeliopheresS [ 29 Jun 2012, 11:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
not sure if it has been mentioned before or if it's the right place to mention it:

Fed Cruiser V:
Build Cost 105
Maintenance Cost 23820

Shouldn't that be vice versa?
Author:  Iceman [ 29 Jun 2012, 16:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
That's been fixed already some time ago. But thanks! I'm going over ships right now, and I've been thinking of posting the database so that you guys can see what's been done and give opinions. The new database doesn't work with the public build though, so it'd be a raw data analysis only.
Thanks for the feedback!
Author:  HeliopheresS [ 29 Jun 2012, 19:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Okay. Is the missing Dilithium for the Dreadnought III (Cardassians) also fixed?
Author:  Iceman [ 02 Jul 2012, 12:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Yep.

At this point, I've added Cloak Strength to all Romulan warships, and increased their Dilithium cost to 2; same for a few Klingon ships.
I've also removed torpedoes from the Dominion Attack Ships (they have more beams). There was an idea about Polaron Beams bypassing shields, let's see if that materializes.

I'm thinking of scrapping a couple of ships, the 2 refits (BotF used the refit concept, Sup not really):
- the Hideki refit, as the Cardassians have a bunch of Destroyers / Heavy Destroyers; it overlaps with the Heavy Destroyer I / II
- the (ducks!) Constitution refit, as having both Cruiser II and III on consecutive levels doesn't really add anything

It's just an idea, I'd like to hear opinions.
Author:  tenac77 [ 02 Jul 2012, 12:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Sounds great to me.

The Dominion Attack Ships with Polaron Beams will be realistic but i think it would be a very great advancement
for the Dominion without multiphase shilding for other races.

But i like the Idea :bigthumb:


forgive me my english :redface:
Author:  Iceman [ 02 Jul 2012, 12:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
All Dominion ships will have Phased Polaron Beams. The problem with the Dominion is that they were only introduced late in the timeline, but we can't let that influence the game.
And of course, the idea is to balance the shield bypassing, be it with lower damage output, higher recharge rate, lower range, whatever. I've made the Attack Ships smaller and less robust, so that the Dominion can churn them out like there's no tomorrow, but it's a fragile kind of advantage. They'll have very small, cheap ships and very large, expensive ships (with both Polaron Torpedoes and PPBs).
Author:  HeliopheresS [ 21 Jul 2012, 11:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
Iceman wrote:
I've been thinking of posting the database so that you guys can see what's been done and give opinions.

When and where will that be posted, if at all?
Author:  Iceman [ 25 Jul 2012, 09:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Ships stats
I've been swamped at work, but I'll try to post it here asap. I still need to go over some ship stats, like speed and range, but I might post it before that.
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