http://www.botf2.com/Image%20Library/Fo ... ulan&View={2EAB3CAC-2EF3-4EA6-85DB-87B0D9B58BA0}

Here is what we have so far in the Romulan Fleet. Let me know if I assigned the correct type to the model. Now that we have a higher limit on the poly count for a Starbase I have it on my list to rebuild those to look more Starbasy. I will try to look into the other model building groups when I get the time. There is some real world work that need doing for now. No one would be happier to get a load of high poly good texture ships.

Uploaded the Firehawk

Yo, I may end up adding more detail to the Galaxy and Galaxy-X...to be more spcific, making the saucer section more...rounder..
anybody think it's a bit too blocky ATM?

I created a png for it. For now I am calling it Extra Firehawk as I am not sure where it goes on the shiplist. (see jobs and positions, ship list....) There is currently a debate about the list's composition that also does not help matters.

Yes, now that you mention it you can see the angles on the saucer section.

The Galaxy X and Norway do not appear on the ship list so I have also given them the Extra designation. If we have to they can be turned into minor race ships later on.

Hm...

Given that the models here are made for multiple games, not one (we have 3 running projects) which will probably have different shiplists - how smart it is to re-name ship classes to some category in someones ship list?

Cruiser I in New Begingins might be Destroyer II in supermacy or something like that..

Shouldn't the smart thing to do be to just name the ships according to their class name?
Given that each project has it's own shiplist, sorting it out for them shouldn't be a problem that way...they KNOW that if they need HvyCruiser I they DL the Galaxy...navigating trough different designations if far more retarded...

Yes. In the end each dev will use each ship as they need.

Dafedz made a database with worked-out stats, designations, and so on.

The devs have said they would likely follow it, but if they want to come up with their own systems, then they obviously can. Dafedz put a LOT of thought into his system though, and whilst it (Obviously) hasn't been tested in "real" 3D combat, it works on paper.

The problems that we are having with the shiplist is more to do with the Klingons than the other races. The problem with the Norway and the Galaxy-X not being in is a completely separate issue to the Klingon one, as they aren't in because with the current system, more ships would unbalance the shiplist. However, as Kenneth is still keeping them on sharepoint, people can add them to their own games later, should they want to.

For the moment though, Dafedz's list is the agreed system, which is why the ships are being named that way. Sharepoitn means things can be changed easily though, so it isn't (too) much of a problem if we decide to change things later.

"unbalance the shiplist"???

Ahh...the assumption that all sides have to have the same ship count and the same classes? If you ask me it's retarded..if that's what you mena.

The main way balance should work (IMHO) is by asking a simple question - can side A counter side B's ship with roughly equal investment (build time, cost)?

Yes and that is the way Dafedz system was designed to in principle.

i.e Dominion have less choice and there ships geneerally come in bigger gaps, however this is compensated with the fact there generally either very good or cheap to produce etc.

There is variation in each species based upon what they are i assume?

Each of the different races have "specialised designations" - basically one races' Dreadnought is another races' Warbird. The ships are roughly the same class, but they just have a different name suited to that race.

As you said, cdrwolfe, just because one race has fewer designs than others doesn't mean that it will be weaker. Where this - or other potential weaknesses - exist, that race will be given advantages in other areas. The Federation vs Dominion example that you mentioned is the perfect example of this. The Federation is a powerhouse of ship design, so it gets new designs very often. However, the new ships are only small, incremental improvements over previous designs. The Dominion focus on power instead of designs though, so they will get huge improvements every time they open up a new design of ship.

Sorry if this sounds patronising guys, but here's a picture to illustrate it better:



There are other variations in the shiplist as well - an example would be with the Scouts. All races have Scouts, but some races also have "Heavy Scouts". Heavy Scouts sacrifice a bit of efficiency, range, and cheapness, in exchange for better defenses, sensors, and weapons. Little things like this will help to differentiate the play styles of the races and help players decide which race best suits them.

I get it...adding new ships then shouldn't be a problem, as long as their cost/effectivnes/tech ratio is something other empires can counter..

Speaking of which - how solid are the shiplists? Is it allready decided exactly which ships will make it in the game and which wont?

We are herding cats. With multiple devs and a load of ships we really are just putting the models up. They decide how to use them. I am using the list not just for the balance work and data behind the shiplist but also to keep track of what we have and what we need relative to some list. I am guessing it will all change by showtime and be different in each game.

I recorded a lot of monolog for the games. Some will be used by some and some will not.

After I find the Dafedz url again (i seem to have a habit of losing it) I will most likely be using those stats for my game.

http://www.trekmania.net/temp_files/botf2_home.htm

Bottom of the page of Ship Stats Balancing on the left.

I try to please as many needs as I can but with so many chefs and personalities I will inevitable tick someone off. Sorry but I am just trying to build enough ships and keep them organized. This list is the best I have to work with at this point.

Hail! Thanks man, quite useful - I'm going to be relying on this and your work heavily in the next few weeks.

I'm secreatly hoping the shiplist won't stop there...there's many more cool ships that can be put in ( *Galaxy-X* )


I've been reading on that shiplist and ship balancing...and it stikes me odd that scouts are so expensive...they're small ships.. I gues addvanced scanning equipment would increae their production cost, but their mantainance should really be (relativly) cheap.

Also, Dreadnoughts are not advanced Battleships. Battleships > Dreadnoughts, or at least it should be like that by any logical classification. Dreadnoughts were "early battleships", so a BB would tear a Dreadnoughts apart...
8O
Hehe...I got caught up in this stupid classification.. Then again, different races, different classifications systems....


Oh another thing..methinks that all ships could use more hull points (DOUBLE).
The way it is now shield contribute 4/5 of total HP which is a bit lame. Shields gone = dead in 1 turn? C'mon..ships should be able to survive more than that.. In the series and moves they get shot without shields and don't blow up in 5 seconds...

With Defedz not around and the need for an updated and or expanded list who would be better than you to make it? Talk to MOE first as he has been working on this as well.

Me? Well..flattered..
I *DO* have experience in balancing ships...made balance packs for BOTF, ARmada 1 & 2, Bridge Commander and some other games...got high ratings too (BC balance pack got a 9.5 score! It was a b*** to do to boot )
Anywayz, we gots time to fiddle with the shiplist given that the battle engine is still ina dream phase..

Things get done around here only because someone decides to do it. If anyone does not like an honest effort they should not waist our time flaming. They should do it better or make constructive suggestion or just keep it to themselves. Even the devs are boss only of their game. I fthey do not like something their option is to not use it.

We have several voices to chose from in the vocal recordings. We are getting alternative ships and station. An alternative ship list is a good thing. Choices is a good thing. I know MOE has been working on this issue as well so he may want to work with you or parallel to you.

Is anyone else having trouble logging in today?

I have been in and out twice today without any problems.

I have some problems trying to open Bot2.com ... got this:

Bad Request (Invalid Hostname)!

What is going on ??

same here! I hope someone keeps backups..just in case.

The site is working now. You guys are lucky I haven't gone on holiday yet.

hm could it be that there's currently some minor issue with the password mail sending at the botf2.com site? I tried to add Seba as new bote contrib but it didn't send the pw email according to him, only the personalized welcome email..I repeated sending him the mail just half an hour ago, mike can you see as admin if that has worked?

btw. did you hear about o3spaces, a free sharepoint alternative (for 10 users max): http://community.o3spaces.com/

could save money if it proves useful cause we could set the server software up on our armadafleetcommand.com domain server and run it from there.

just a thought..

Never heard of it Mal, but then again I'd never heard of sharepoint til Mike set it up...

Mike is paying for and running the site, so it is entirely up to him to decide whether he wants to move to a cheaper alternative. Having only 10 members would get annoying though, as those 10 people would have to upload/change everything...

sure. but I think a one-time buy of the non-user-restricted version could be cheaper in the end as having to pay monthly for god knows how long.

Edit: okay, i just saw the prices are per-user! see for yourself: http://o3spaces.com/Page/sp6/ml2/nctrue/index.html

so it's the 10 user max version only IMHO.

SharePoint costs me $20 (~€14) a month for unlimited users. You can also extend it, and out of the box it supports blogs, wikis, image libraries, document libraries, etc. I'm fine with paying for it as long as we're getting good use out of it, and so far it's proven indispensible .

On the plus side, I've used SharePoint enough that I could customize it much easier than any other solution. Particularly if the other solution is based on UNIX and not the Microsoft platform.

any word yet on the accounts? I would not pay the monthly fee until they offer full functionality again. Even better would be to search for another host with hopefully better backup management.

I may do that, but not until I can get logged in so I can do my own backup of the site layout. I don't want to have to recreate the entire site structure on a new host.