First off for the attention of Jade, this is ungame related and i am not criticising the game or creators! So dont hit me

The past few star trek films have been, lets be honest, crap! The last one was "ok" i guess but they have really been letting down the franchise, why?
Because the powers that be are deviating from the classic and tried and tested formula! First contact was the last decent movie, a good addition to the series of films, but most people's fav film is one of the oldies! Why!? is it cus the acting was alot better? No, Because more people like trek back then? No, its because the formula attracted people, trek and no trek alike.

The stories were epic and had a grand scale to them, and people really felt like what they were seeing mattered! This was demonstrated in First Contact, but in the others i was not convinced, the scale just was not there. The best story line of all time? The dominon War, why? Because it was epic in scale and we saw grand battles and inportant build up's!

Why do the creators of trek want to deviate to a more "deeper meaning" formula! end of the day we wanna see battles, we wanna see cameras pan earth and alien planets for a grand scale and sense of epicness (im aware i use these words alot lol) We have been denied a good movei for a long time, and these "prior knowledge required" films are pushing away moderate fans and people who just wanna see a great sci-fi movie. The old films bridged this gap, they made trek, dare i say it "cool".

I feel the new series, whereva it comes from may depart to a new radical formula, i wanna see another ship, or station it the middle of events in the federation, not some "academy" or "klingon ship", as much as the klingons will always be close to my heart. We need the old formula and scale of star trek given a good dusting and getting it back in action. Bring back the genius of DS9 (esp the final series') and the TOS movies!

In my final note, i fear that unless someone sorts out the trek franchise the future of good TV and movies with trek will be in great trouble. New fans need to be recruited, but we need good TV as well as good trek to do this!!

Only if we could use the old TOS crew to sort this one out, they always got things done!

LOL

This is a really good question, and I'm going to attempt to answer it properly. (knowing what this forum's like, 10 people will probably have posted by the time I finish. )

1/ Popularity & acceptbility

Less people will even consider Trek now as it's known that trekkies are geeks who dissect every bit of info on the show, most people don't want to be grouped into the same category.

2/ Competition

Shows like SG-1 and Lost are imaginitive sci fi shows, but told from the perspective of contemporary people . As a result at first glance it's easier to 'get into'. Hell, after missing a lot of ENT it took me ages to catch up with what's what, and I'm a diehard trekkie.

3/ Writers

This is a biggie. It seems the writers have now started looking at situations that are 'cool' or they think will pull in audiences, and then trying to fit a story in. They'll be like "Oh man, the fans will love it if we get a Vulcan fleet to fight an Earth fleet, let's see how we can bring that about". Instead of stories everyone can watch and relate to, there are mindless scenarios playing themselves out, we fans are drooling and getting hard, the average joe is oblivious as to why a Romulan marrying a Ferengi is cool.

4/ Fanbase & potential fanbase

This is the biggest in my opinion, and this point will take some expressing. Firstly, TNG was a popular show, it was part of popular culture and 'normal' people watched it. I think a lot of this is due to the episodic nature of the show. A casual fan can switch on his TV, with very little knowlege of what came before, and as long as he follows the story from A-B, he's sees the complete picture of that episode, he's seen all he needs to and is satisfied. Hardcore fans on the other hand quite rightly feel that 45 minutes isn't as good a platform to tell a real story than 90 or even 300 minutes. We want arcs, two parters, continuity!

This is the paradox of Trek popularity. Real fans want long running stories set in the immersive tapestry of Trek, casual fans want good episodes they can relate to, they need to be able to miss 5 episodes and have it not matter. Problem is, the producer have tried bringing back true standalone stuff to appeal to the masses a little omre, and the fans have quite rightly rejected it. I showed an ex of mine both First Contact and Nemesis, she preferred Nemsis. The reason was she found FC slightly confusing, it required a little more backstory as it relied on previous episodes, yet in my mind this made it a far superior film. In her mind Nemesis was a fun romp, the characters were cracking jokes, the battles were cool, the remans looked evil etc etc. I don't agree with her point of view but I do understand it.

If you look at the ratings, TNG did pretty consistently well. DS9, which in my mind was a far superior show, had steadily declining ratings throughout it's run. I believe that as well as increased competition and the growing stigma attached to being a trekkie, the serialised nature of DS9 made it very easy to lose track of, having missed a few episodes. In a sense, the best Trek we ever got killed the franchise. Voyager started with lower ratings than DS9, and continued the decline, with a big upsurge when 7 of Tits was introduced. I think by this point, the producers wanted to try and recapture the larger fanbase, which in turn was turning off the hardcore fans. Being episodic again, Voyager is less respected by Trekkies than DS9, and by late on, most casual fans had given up.

Now, people generally steer clear of anything Star Trek. If someone I know happens to see I have a Trek DVD, they'll be like !Star Trek!" and act like I'm a friek. If I ask exactly which Trek they've seen that's turned them off, they most likely won't have an answer.

It'll be a unique and great show that ever manages to attract fans and non fans alike.

WOW that's the biggest first two posts i've read thorugh

In the 1960's when TOS first aired, Sci-Fi was a new idea. That's why it was so popular. Now the airwaves are saturated with it and Star Trek has maybe fallen behind some what.

@Carrot, i agree First Contact was the last great Trek film
@SOM, When i sat down and watched Stargate for the first time, i also found it a lot easier to get into than i did with Trek

Dude, science fiction was around just a little earlier than the 60's.

I'm sure you meant sci fi on the TV, which is bang on. TV itself was new, and sitting and watching shows was cool. If people like TOS today, with all the competition, just imagine how masterful it seemed compared to the other **** they were making.

It's the million dollar question isnt it, how do you create a show and movie which appeals to both hardcore fans and casual watchers! I personally think they were doing something right in the final series of Enterprise, most people would agree Enterprise was a good idea but, end of the day, it was ****. The final series though left me wanting more, the Vulcan fleet thing was OTT, but, it was epic in scale and fairly explainable.

Dam it they had the right thing with the TOS movies, they have to be the only films i can just watch more often than ever 6 months, amazing, they were very good for hardcore trekkies, but normal people could watch them too, they were the benchmark!

Yes and SOM i agree about DS9, i personally think the last series or two was some of the best modern trek, and was very encouraging. I actually had alot of (non trek) mates who were attracted by these series at the end, because they were exciting and had alot of action, but did not neglect character building.

Its also true theres alot of competition out there, i think SG-1 was prety good years ago, but how many times can you go to a new planet and meet a clueless race of humans and save the day, lol i should have been put down years ago. Nothing can beat trek and the possibilities with it! We need the right writiers and direction!

well seeing as paramount is about to be broken up and the trek franchise will be owned by a smaller company whose ceo (can`t remember her name) says that the franchise should be left alone for at least a decade then i think noting can go wrong in the future as trek no longer has a future for at least ten years.

*Sheds a tears* Ye that is all true, but at its best Star Trek can and has made ALOT Of money for the TV and movie industry, inc toys amd merc etc. When there is a franchise that can make money and already with a huge fanbase and more potentially someone will pick this up and do something with it.

Thats capatalism for you and Star trek in the right hands is a winning franchise and i think it will have a big comeback soon. Iw ould say 5 years tops rather than 10.

I agree. Whatever they say they won't wait 10 years before trying to milk their cash cow again.

Which is probably even worse... The more they want to squeeze out of it, the more it's popularity and general acceptance will drop.

If they use it soon, they better think it through because I don't think Trek can survive another ENT

A spin off from trek might be the way to go i would say as they all have been on the federation so maybe the show should tell a part of trek universe from a different races perspective. A new race in a different quadrent perhaps.

I dunno might not work without feds but would be nice to see the quality of the show take a new direction for a bit. Personally id like to see the the klingons show where they go and get other races and blow romulans up all the time hehe.

lol, would be nice to see the Great Tribble hunt from a different/closer perspective
Btw,

You can see that in any Trek spin-off

I think this is the problem. I would love to watch a Klingon show, a show about some other aliens, a section 31 show, whatever as long as it's trek! The average joe will never get into a show about klingons, to be fair, what would the episodes be about anyway? I think the most they could do with a klingon ship could be a 5 part miniseries. As I said, I think most people will only accept humans in a familiar setting.

Ye agreed, it would be nice for a spin off like the alternative ENT universe, but the longevity would be lacking. Its got to be Feds its got to have scale, the balance between in house knowledge and popular appeal can be found, its just going to take talented writers and producers.

Ok no klingon episodes, how about a proper show about the mirror universe. I would defo watch that as i really enjoy them episodes. I mean why on earth shoudl we be peace loving hippies in sci-fi shows when in real life were worse that the sci-fi enemys lol. I reckon the terran empire expanding there empire throughout the universe would be awsome, also with them being mean bad-asses then it should encourage more fights and battles hehe.

Could start in ds9 era the mirror universe show where the terrans struggle to get the terran empire back and after learning its lesson with trying to be peaceful the new purpose is the destroy all the races that came after them, we could have a new ds9 war type of thing right there,

Never gona happen as in being made, which is a shame.

Haha, its a good thought, i fear the aggressive nature of the alternate univese would mean huge budget problems for the Special effect dpt lol Its difficult to know what will and what wont work, why do we have to deviate from the old SHIP, FEDS, GREATER GOOD formular, but just get better writers. Id love to see rike ron the mysterious TItan we all hear about. He'll bring in the old TNG faithful who left when VOY and DS9 started, alot of people i talk to who are casual trek fans loved TNG but hated everything since, i think he'll be idea.

Wow, that would be a cool idea, Skeeter, I love the mirror-universe idea...but the whole series itself would need a small amount of information to explain what the hell is going on - casual watchers might not find this appealing.

...

Carott, about your capitalism point - it is definitely a worthy point when it comes to Trek - a while ago, I read <Somewhere> that since TOS was originally created, the Star trek franchise has generated over $54 BILLION! Obviously, even since then, it has likely increased even futher... 8O

Frankly, I find it hard to imagine any company turning their backs on that amount of cash!

If Trek is to continue, I personally think it should be allowed to lie low for a year or five. This isn't because i've suddenly become anti-trek, (Shoot me if I ever do! ) but because I simply think that we need to wait for the dust to settle down.

As SOM has said, trek has more than a bit of a stigma to it, and for trek to survive, people need to forget about this.

Sure, a break may lead to us loyal fans becoming disenchanted, bored, hell, even lost without it, but the casual watcher is the kind of person that a new series would need to attract. Sadly, thanks to the stigma, we loyal fans are slowly becoming a thing of the past.

A break could be just the thing that could breathe life back into the franchise. However, I do not agree with the 10 year figure that has apparently been quoted. By far, that is too big a break.

Also, as people have said, new writers could be what is needed to revive trek.

As he said, the casual watcher wants something that needs little prior knowledge, something that is action-packed, and generally cool. Nemesis may not be the complete embodiment of this, but it was a step in the right direction - afterall, there were new writers involved in it, there were homages to previous films put in for us loyal fans, and there was action.

The world is full of good writers. You just have to look at your nearest bookstore or on the internet for fanfics to prove that.

There is another thing that is a problem though - keeping it new and fresh. There is little that hasn't been done before, whether it is by trek or another sci-fi series.

Trek has always tried to push the boundaries, tried to break our prejudices - or even shown them for what they really are.

Are there reallt that many boundaries left though? We aren't gonna be surprised by some new Alien race with an extra facial bump now, are we?

Perhaps we need more shapeshifters, non-carbon based lifeforms, and more Gorn? Perhaps we should think of what actually is left to do?

Either way though, I wouldn't fancy the job of any new writers - those are some pretty big shoes to fill, and to be honest, if they don't fit, it could be the end of trek as we know it - permanently.

I think a borg invasion series would be good. The borg have invaded the alpha quadrant and in the opening episodes earth gets asimilated and all of the races come together in a huge effort to counter the invasion and somehow liberate earth.

Later Qonos and romulas could fall and there would be lots of epic battles and sub stories.

Kinda like battlestar galactica but the cylons are the borg?

Well I would watch it anyway.

Thats a good idea actually, maybe not earth assimilated, but the outer colonies or something, people love the borg, esp casual watchers. I think a fulls cale borg invasion and seein all the races tryin to unit to defeat them would be good. Maybe a major planet like, Qo'nos or cardasia or something, but i think that would be a great back drop to a new series!

I will keep it short, since most of you have already brought up plenty of arguments and ideas:

1.) I think the ST franchise ist quite a dead duck as it is now, though I do hope for some kind of ressurection (I just have to, as a long time RPG player ). There have been too many shows already I guess.

2.) Films, yeah I guess me might see at least one more of them

3.) SG sucks! Since I have studied ancient archiology, all I can say about SG is: Pure Crap!!!, badly made stories, with absolute nonsense as background. Not a single line about ancient mythology is fact or truth. Basically a good idea, but not basing on any facts, and thus no good (science?)fiction emreges from it. This is the main difference to ST, which always tried to build up on modern and fictious science.

4.) If there would be an new show, I would also like to see a Borg Invasion Scenario, but at its very beginning. Something like a mixed Federation/Klingon/Romulan (Alpha Quadrant) Crew on a complete new mixed Ship design (take the best of all), as one of many ships patroling the quadrant and fighting the Borg.

There are quite a few good Trek drama's circulating the net. I like HiddenFrontier - i'm not advertising Jig

http://www.hiddenfrontier.org

As a spin off I know it will never happen but it’s nice to air it though, I would love to see something covering the origins of the Borg.

It would be interesting to see how they came about obviously created but by whom and what was the original purpose before it drastically went wrong and they assimilated there makers!

I don't know if anyone has written a pre history about the Borg, I have not found one yet althought I have not looked very hard.

Oh yes, that would be an idea opening episode for a "borg invade alpha quadrant" series. Oh at least an episode in the first few. I think we're on to a winner here, the borg sells, and we all know FC was one of the greatest trek films. Bring on the borg!

The reason i used to love TNG was the way they used to address modern concepts of morality. There were shows about eugenics, physical handicaps, genderism, pacifism, idealism they explored both right wing and left wing politics.

I also used to like the technological aspect which was based on true science. Even though it was mostly theory from our limited understanding at the moment it still made the show more credible than most sci fi drama.

I enjoyed the references to great works of literature that they included like Shakespeare, Aldous Huxley, George Orwell etc. The acting helped here also. TNG had good actors, sure there were some bad ones as well but generally it was well performed.

Favourite episode - Chain of Command Part 1 and 2. Pretty sure this episode is mostly based on the novel 1984.


I enjoyed DS9 for many of the same reasons as TNG. Thought DS9 was even more political though with many nods to history and the 2nd world war. Great series which was only let down by a overlong war near the end in my opinion. The acting in Deep space 9 was also excellent esspecially from the non federation cast like Quark and Dukat.

Voyager - i didnt really like even though i watched them all. Couldnt stand Janeway didnt like any of them actually. Scripts seemed shallow.

Enterprise - Omg terrible made worse by the fact they had so much good story they could have used. I also hated the time travel asspect. Made everything that happened ridiculuos. Was used as a way for them to explain things that were happening that never did happen.


Star trek future ( wishful thinking) = Pretend enterprise was never even released and start again but this time focus on the Romulan federation war PLEASE! Also get some actors that can act and not just girls with big tits and has been yesteryear big names. Focus on story and not just big fight scenes but also have battle scenes as well. And keep The star trek storyline in tact!

Edit - ways for them to pretend enterprise never existed. Do a shower scene with the new captain having a day dream about enterprise then waking up and going omg that was just a stupid dream.

At first, I fail to see a reason why Enterprise should be pretended as it did never happen in order to make a series about the Federation-Romulan war. But I guess I am again a lone fighter for the greatness of ENT.

Back to the subject, I think you are all wrong about the reason why Star Trek is dieing. It is not the fact that it lacks greatness or 'epicness'. It is the exact opposite!!! There are, as said, two groups; Die-hard fans and casual watchers. Most of the Die-hard fans are there since the times of TOS and thus are (sorry to say it) a bit old.

This means that in order to survive, Star Trek has to rely on new fans and new people who watch a random episode and think "wow, this is cool, I think I am going to watch it again next week" There are a few things that need to apply before they do. At first they need to simply like it. Like the concept, the way it is performed, the characters, etc. This is mostly determined for each person. If someone doesn't like Sci fi, well; too bad. Secondly, they need to be able to understand it. That means they shouldn't fall into a story and hear all kind of strange things they do not understand. A first time viewer does not know what technologies or aliens there are. They do not know what happened in previous episodes or series. That is the exact reason why TNG was so good. It was all new, everything had to be explained anyway, so people understand it. Later on, they kept refering back to those periods and while die-hard fans do know what's it all about, new people do not.

Thus, in order for Star Trek to survive, we do need to return to a more episodic type of series. Not too long drawn-out stories, and mostly not too much technobable and references new people will not understand.
Strek needs a new fanbase. The old one fanbase is decreasing while no new people join.

Hey, you got one extra fighter on your side, Var'Din. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If your a ST fan, and dont like Ent, you fall into one of two categories.

Either A. You've never watched it, and jumped on the ENT bashing bandwagon cause you heard other trekies didnt like it. Or

B. You put up with its lackluster first and seconf seasons, and decided it wasnt very good (which season 1, and the first half of season werent very good). But season 3, and what we got of season 4 (minus the last ep) were both great.

If I only had seen the first two crappy seasons of TNG before I saw the rest, I might have not given that series much of a chance either.

I think a good idea would be a series of trek miniseries. Never spend more than 4-8 episodes on any particular thing. You could show things that happened in the past (Earth-Rom war anyone), you could show things like SOMs ideas for a Klingon and sect 31 show, along with many other things.

But sadly, this would only apeal to diehard fans, and wouldnt really help bring in new ones.

Well i respect your reasons for liking Enterprise. I did however See every episode. I think it got worse though I didnt mind the slow start and introduction to the characters.

I think its about expectations persoanly like what people wanted to see from enterprise. Persoanlly i wanted a more detailed presentation of starfleet and its encounters with the new races. I didnt want shows about races they just made up and time travel episode which are just away to fill the space.

I mean near the end it was getting like you watch 3 whole shows and then in the 4th everything that happened in the first 3 were discounted because it was all a alternative timeline or parallel univierse.

Also i think it shouldnt be dumbed down. If they dumbed star trek down anymore it would be baywatch. Well im exaggerating but TNG was a lot more technical and more popular. I think the main would be star trek fans have been put off by to much action and not enough substance.

Thats also why i dont like star gate but thats another conversation and i've made enough enemies saying i dont like enterprise

I do think Battlestar Gallactice is very good though. Its also very succesful and its main strengh is good acting/characters good storyline.

Now thats a little much, huh? They did that once (not counting the mirror unverse episodes, which were supposed to be just that, stories about the mirror universe). Its season 4, ep2, where they tie up the loose ends of the so called Temporal War. Just so you know, no enemy here sideeffect, just someone who definately disagrees.

BTW, new Battlestar Galactica is very good. I may like Ent, but BG blows it way the hell out of the water on their stories alone.

Yeah BSG is amazing. Never expected it to be this good. Thats why I think we need a more gritty and real series.

Yes i think the romulan wars would have been really gritty. If you look at the star trek history of that time it looks like the federation was formed through war. The threat of the romulans brought the first of the federation planets together.

Would have been so good

I think if enterprise had started later on and not as early as it had then it would still be running now. Either that or they should have jumped forward 10 years after season 2 instead of making up the xindi war.

When they jumped forward in time they could have said that Malcolm Reed died that would make it even better