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Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction time http://bote2.square7.ch/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=952	Page 1 of 1

Author:	ares [ 29 Jan 2006, 02:10 ]
Post subject:	Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction time
only a suggestion, keep to existing vessles in the database, between TOS onwards? reason being, addding unknown vesseles only makes it unfair when you try and add them into a time period also, the Enterprise series, compltly disrupts the entire timeline form TOS onwards, im more than a couple of hundred ways

Author:	Matress_of_evil [ 29 Jan 2006, 02:19 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
Whilst your points are valid, Enterprise is completely canon and therefore has to be in the game. It's being made to be as canon as possible, afterall. Besides, many of the models have already been made. It would be pointless to disregard the models. That's why I vote no in the poll. Anyways, you can always mod the game yourself. You could completely remove the Enterprise era vessels if you want. Welcome to the site.

Author:	ares [ 29 Jan 2006, 02:34 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
http://www.ditl.org/ ( for help with ships power , weaopns etc) BUT, the enterprise series completly disregards the entire timeline, from TOS onwards, the Deadules calss was the original Federation ship, not enterprise, which is my argument beacuase sum newq kid comes on the block, must we disregard all the 4 series AND films, and just accept Paramounts new money maker? i know it may sound slighty no trekkie of me, but Enterprise sucked, as a pre-qual to the Star TRek Saga, maybe under a new name perhaps, it may of worked for me, but its not Star Trek in my eyes and allthough the models are good, adding them i feal would no longer make it a star trek game, perhaps having the extra models in an add-on pack maybe?

Author:	jigalypuff [ 29 Jan 2006, 02:56 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
ok i voted no, for the following reasons enterprise rocked, the NX-01 is my favaroite ship so far in trek, followed closely bye the andorians kumari class. the ships will be in for the simple reason they have been made and they are cannon. and don`t waffle on about how ent messed with the timeline, all of the shows have had major inconsistincys in them which not only contradict each other but even the same shows. the main reason of course is i did`nt spend a load of time makeing ships just for some new kid on the block to come along and disregard what the majority wants.

Author:	Nemitor_Atimen [ 29 Jan 2006, 03:06 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
I voted no - i'd prefer a game with all series included later than TOS onward.

Author:	ZDarby [ 29 Jan 2006, 10:13 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
I agree that Ent disrupted the timeline considerably... Indeed I got in a discussion with someone on this board that I have yet to finish.... And for this reason I would like to say "yes". However, I want to be able to start from zero. I -want- to be able to start from pre-warp, let alone pre-tos. I wouldn't ask the developers to develop a pre-warp, nor even a pre-tos game if they didn't want to. Honestly, though, I want to start from scratch, from null. So, with that in mind, I have to say "no"... no matter what I want I felt about Enterprise. (For the record, I enjoyed Enterprise, I just hated the timeline disruptions. Oh! And I thought Enterprise was a beutiful design... Though it seemed a design before its time.)

Author:	Adm_Willie [ 29 Jan 2006, 10:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
I said no because I loved Enterprise.....I dont seem to understand why it shouldn't be canon .......The model of the enterprise was great ......And may I ask Ares <<< have you ever seen the complete serie of Ent.......Alright some episodes where a bit flaw ...but it happens with every serie........ Some of these guys have already made models.....so why shouldn't we put them in the game.... And what matress_of_evil said ..you could mod them if you like .......The ships before TOS where very nice ships.....And from my oppinion they look even better than the ships from TOS ......

Author:	TrekBoyChris [ 29 Jan 2006, 11:15 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
I'm sure i agree that i'd much prefer to wait and get a really good game with everything rather than it be rushed out

Author:	cdrwolfe [ 29 Jan 2006, 14:36 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
The more ships the better i say Though it does add to the time it's going to take it's not like anyone here is'nt used to waiting

Author:	Eon_Janus [ 29 Jan 2006, 15:59 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
i also agree with everybody else. I personally liked ENT very much. And since the first time i played BOTF, i always wanted to be able to play a BOTF which would allow me to "start from scratch" (is that the right expression?) and use every ship possible from the Trek universe, which, despite the flaws and inconsistences it shows often on it's episodes, i happen to love very much. my two cents here

Author:	ares [ 29 Jan 2006, 16:49 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
ys i have seen enterprise, and as i said, if under a differnt name, then maybe but it really is like jamming a sqaure block into the circle of the kids toy aslo to note on startting right frmo the begining, i assume u mean from when First Contact leaves us, and thats where we'd start? getting from there alone to enterprise would probably take an hour or so, repeatedly tapping the turn button please dont get me wrong, it would be nice to see BotF2, but shouldnt we start off small ie only incoperate existing ships first, add others later ie perhaps start in the same Style of BotF, jus reduced slightly tec wise and begin with earlier vessesl (constitution, deadules, sleeper ships etc) ultimately, how many years do you have to dedicate yourself to this? i mean, realisticlly, to add all these ships, make the game very long, AND make it work, your gonna need a good, 5-7 yeears perhaps?

Author:	jigalypuff [ 29 Jan 2006, 17:46 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
it starts off from the nx-01 not the phoenix. tech levels and research will be down to you so if you don`t want to spend an hour tapping the turn button increase the amount of research your doing i fully understand your view, it`s just not going to happen the way you want, look you have only just joined up and started posting, don`t you think it`s a bit late in the day to worry about the shiplist which was decided months ago.

Author:	ares [ 30 Jan 2006, 00:10 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
posting recently.watchful for much longer and in regards to the NX-01, it has weapons and armour that are beyond even the constitution class, has this been fully taken into account? and ship lists my suggestion was only in reducing work load/time, and in preperation of a more quialative product over a quantative one

Author:	UnDated [ 30 Jan 2006, 00:20 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
how do u figure it is better armed etc?

Author:	Matress_of_evil [ 30 Jan 2006, 10:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
Ares, I totally agree with Undated's question. Simply because their weapons - Phase Canons and Photonic Torpedoes - seem advanced, doesn't mean they are. We certainly know that Photonic Torpedoes are less advanced than Photons. In either season 1 or 2, Hoshi saw some Photons on a Klingon ship, (I can't remember if she saw them physically or if they were in a diagram/scan though) and they were a completely alien device to her. Surely if Photonic Torpedoes were more advanced than Photons, then Starfleet would NEVER have armed all their subsequent ships with them? This also apllies to beam weapons because Phase Pistols/Canons are quite simply the forerunners to Phasers, just as Lasers were the forerunners to Phase weapons. Lasers have been mentioned in TNG (The episode where the Enterprise's crew had their memories wiped and an alien tried to get the Enterprise to destroy his enemies command center) That race used Lasers as weapons, and the crew mentioned about how inferior the weapons were - they couldn't even damage the shields. Anyways, I digress as always. As Jig also said, the ship list has been in development for literally months. The ships that would be in the game were decided a long time ago, and, if as you say, you've been on the site for a long time, why didn't you voice your opinions then? There wasn't anything to stop you from doing so. The game is being made by the fans, for the fans. That means mass appeal, not niche-only. What the masses want, they will get in the official release. It will be up to people who want something different to make the changes they want, and if they don't mind doing so, they will then be able to host their mods for download on this site, so that others may try them. Remember, you can mod the game all you want, so what's the problem? ... ZDarby, I think it was me who you were having the conversation with.

Author:	Centurion_VarDin [ 30 Jan 2006, 10:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
ares wrote: posting recently.watchful for much longer and in regards to the NX-01, it has weapons and armour that are beyond even the constitution class, has this been fully taken into account? and ship lists my suggestion was only in reducing work load/time, and in preperation of a more quialative product over a quantative one Huh??? Where the hell did you get this from? Haven't you seen the episodes from the Alternative universe. The NX-01 didn't quit stand much of a chance against the Constitution class, mate..

Author:	Adm_Willie [ 30 Jan 2006, 20:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
yeah....The constitution kickt some as there even a vulcan ship didn't stand a chance......so I dont now where your talking about ares......the weapons of the NX look advanced but be resonable.......the constitution came 100 years after the NX......dont you think the constitution was a little bit better than the Nx .....And dont forget the nx had hull PLATING ....1 of the things the constitution didn't have...... and about the statement you said about the daedelus...that it was the first federation ship......your wrong ...the daedelus came after the nx .....at the time of the romulan war.....they built the ship with vulcan and andorian tech......so I wonder ...where did you get that information mate?

Author:	iwulff [ 31 Jan 2006, 00:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
Yep your right, only i didn't liked those 3(?) episodes. Although i do agree, that they should have used some less advanced weaponry. They just got to fast upgrades and such. Perhaps they wanted to keep a connection with the tech for the less informed dude. I mean everyone knows about photon torpedoes and phasers, and not everyone knows about lasers and such. EDIT: as in trek

Author:	ares [ 31 Jan 2006, 00:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
before enterprise existed, the deadules class WAS the first Federation ship, enterprise ust plonks itslef in the middle, and expects everyone to accept it AND. on the plaques The Motion Picture : i distinctley rember a large open area, with it showing the evoloution of the enterprise, going from sea fearing to a sleeper ship to the constitution calss, no mention of the NX-01 and i swear on one of the TNG episdoes, thare was a collecctipon of enterprise modles going, Sea-Fearing, CONSTITUTION class, etc etc i consider myself an old school trekkie and no, i didnt see that episode Question, what happend to nearly 80% of the races that enterprise encounterd? Question, what happend to 90% of all the events and discoveries of stufff like "sphere builders", did they just disappear in time foe TOS to start?

Author:	Matress_of_evil [ 31 Jan 2006, 00:30 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
They should have made two different versions of Enterprise really - one for the casual watcher, and one for us. If anyone's interested, a guy on the scifi-meshes.com website has created an NX-Constitution cross. It isn't completed, but it's a beauty of a design, and the concept art on the first page is exceptionally detailed. http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27461 (I think you have to sign up to the site to be able to see the work, but trust me, it's worth it. ) Edit - Ares, your edit beat me at posting. I know you think Enterprise just plonked itself in the middle of everything, but it's physically set before the other Treks. Therefore, it is the fore-runner of the non-Enterprise designs that we know of. Yes, there are inconsistancies, yes, there are complete and utter mistakes. But such things were present in every* other series if you look. Enterprise is canon, whether you like it or not. The Temporal wars can also explain - and create - some of the headaches that Enterprise is obviously causing you, such as missing races and whatever. Subsequent Treks also explored further reaching areas of space - Enterprise essentially explored our backyard. That could also explain why we never hear of many of the races again. I know fanfics aren't canon, which is what this discussion is circulating round, but this (Gigantic) fanfic "explains" a lot of stuff to do with the Temporal cold war and other inconsistencies in Trek. It's split into books, which can be found in these links (In this order) http://www.fanfiction.net/s/423785/1/ http://www.fanfiction.net/s/565910/1/ http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1434978/1/ http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1580711/2/

Author:	iwulff [ 31 Jan 2006, 00:37 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
I totally agree that they should have balanced it a bit more. BUT really they couldn't make it less like TOS. I mean 2 feet square button smashing with a big hammer?

Author:	Centurion_VarDin [ 31 Jan 2006, 01:19 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
iwulff wrote: I totally agree that they should have balanced it a bit more. BUT really they couldn't make it less like TOS. I mean 2 feet square button smashing with a big hammer? And still calling it "Science fiction" But, the thing about the Daedalus being the first Federation vessel IS true. Remember that during Enterprise, the Federation does NOT exist. It is formed quite some years later and hasn't been on screen. (Note that the final episode wasn't even the Federation, but the Coalition of planets). If I recall correctly during that episode the NX-01 was considered "old". The entire design has been scrapped before the forming of the Federation, making the Daedalus the first Federation vessel. (note: NOT the first Starfleet vessel, since Starfleet existed before the Federation did) Ares, there is a quite interesting thread about Enterprise as a series and all the inconsistencies and such. Go have a look: http://botfii.armadafleetcommand.com/in ... opic&t=813 Your arguments are quite easily to explain away. A lot of the races encountered in ENT do show in the other series, only you take it for granted, so it doesn't show that much. The other races (go count, there aren't that many of them ) just still exist. Why should anything "have happened" to them just because Kirk and Picard didn't happen to have to deal with them again?

Author:	ares [ 31 Jan 2006, 02:50 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
one last dig WHY ARE THEY MESSING IN TEMPORAL WARS ? and surely wars involve more than one ship ? its like a Jason and 4000 goliaths ( and in game tems, and is what i was kinda trying to get at ) this game is called Birth of the FEDERATION, not starfleet we therefore should perhaps make the NX-01 an ear;ly scout, to precede the Oberth class scout ( only a suggestion ) therefore, enterprise remains, in a more fesabile way AND, yes, lets add all the ships we can BUT, i would like to suggest that this is done via a differnt part of the game, and using the database located at (http://www.ditl.org/) could make our own that way this would allow the makes/programers less to worry about, meanig a ) we get game sooner b ) they dont have to worry soo much about having to create 20 odd new versions for all teh rest of the major races ie Federation has nearly 40 registerd classes throughout its time, and for the rest, we probably know no more than 10-15 of each perhaps ideas and designs for them would be better worth exploring to balence the game up? maybe same stats modded over fed vessels with major race making it look

Author:	ftranschel [ 31 Jan 2006, 09:41 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
dear ares, your suggestions are well formed and even well reflected, I see. But the point in telling you this wont be possible is: you're around one year to late with that. the game engine is finished from all I know and the things you come up with have been decided about. if you like the game following your ideas, you are free to mod it once it's finished. we have no use of all people trying to corrupt the concepts that have beend decided upon a long time ago.

Author:	Matress_of_evil [ 31 Jan 2006, 10:55 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
Ares, there seems to be one point that you aren't getting - the Temporal war was a cold war - not a single shot was fired between ships! The Temporal war was several different groups of races/individuals that tampered with the timeline. They were essentially doing what the Krenim Timeship did in Voyager, except the Temporal wars were about weakening (Or even destroying) their enemies in the past, so that the present/future would never happen. In fact, that's also what the Borg did in First Contact. As for the Database system, i'm in uni at the moment, so I can't check out this Database that you mention, BUT the game ALREADY has a Database; its gonna be the help system of the game, just like the research, intel, diplomacy and system screens in BOTF1, except in a more LCARS-style format, and with a LOT more info. If you want a look, theres an old version of the Database available for download in the downloads section of the site. If you want a newer version of it though, I can send you version 1.02. THAT one isn't available for download. Iwulff has been keeping any subsequent updates a secret though, so that's why it the downloads are considered old. I guess I shouldn't have given out the newer version so freely to people, else h might have trusted me more... The final version of the Database will be part of the download of the game. As far as I know, we won't be getting any other sneak-peeks.

Author:	Captain_Billy_Bacon [ 31 Jan 2006, 11:17 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
I owulnt mind a look at tht database MOE lol As for ares man dont rely matter there good ideas just a little late thats all its just a matter of waiting for the game now...........................................................................................................................................................................

Author:	Adm_Willie [ 31 Jan 2006, 12:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
yeah don't worry. I think you will enjoy the game wheter the Nx is in or not.......and if you dont like it you can always mod it and your suggesting to putt more ships in later, if im correct?But you must realise the federation has more ships than the other races and it wouldn't be realistic if the federation came with alot of models and the klingons not. This must be a disappointment for you but your simple to late.....

Author:	Matress_of_evil [ 31 Jan 2006, 14:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Limit Scape of vessels and races to improve prodiuction
Eh? You haven't got it Billy? Hmm...you should have been one of the first people I sent it to...are you sure you haven't got it? I've been sending it to people for months now... If I see you on MSN, i'll send it to you. You might not see me online tonight though, i'll be busy.

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