I honestly think the Peregrine will end up as a mod, as well as Data's scout thing. Don't worry, you'll be able to completely change the face of the game very easily.

There was just hardly any people who were even slightly excited about the prospect of fighters before, personally, I think it's just an odd thing for Trek and then there's the issue of giving other races fighters etc etc.

A couple of bits to add for Zell to look over;

*The Nova should have a torpedo load, it was using full sized photons against Voyager, perhaps it can be balanced by reducing it's shields and keeping the torpedo spread low.

*I really like how the Oberth has no torps. I do think the class has slightly higher shielding than it should have, the Grissom was destroyed by one torpedo in ST3. I think the Oberth should be virtually useless in combat, a pure science ship.

*I think that although the shielding of the Sovereign should be far stronger than the Prometheus, the Prometheus should have a higher hull rating to reflect the ablative armour.

*I'd make the Akira slightly weaker and the Intrepid much weaker. They are too close to the strength of the Galaxy for me. The Akira can be a cheaper yet slightly weaker ship, the Intrepid a fast, long range scout.

*The Defiant needs to be a lot tougher, did I say that already?


Klingons-

As the Klingon shiplist can be based off this one I though I'd do a little groundwork by looking at which ships are equivalent to one another roughly. Obviosly this needs work.

NX- D5
Intrepid- Raptor
Oberth- Will the Klingons have science ships?

Constitution- D7
Daedalus- Early BOP
Miranda- Movies BOP
Cons refit/Excelsior- K'Tinga (many refits)
Ambassador- Stupid looking big BOP from TNG

Steamrunner- Newer version of BOP
Galaxy/Nebula- Vor'Cha
Nova- See Oberth
Sovereign- Negh'Var
This is a first attempt. Klingons, do they have science ships at all? Maybe their science biased ships are still heavily armed warships with a lower science ability that their federation equivalents. In that case the Early BOP could be the early destroyer and the Raptor a science ship?

The Klingons were always going to have less ships thn the Federation. This doesn't need to put them at a disadvantage though, while the Federation can build either Galaxy or Akira classes, the Klingons would have the Vor'Cha, which is heavier than an Akira, yet cheaper than a Galaxy.

Even though the Federation end up with more selection at the end, including a couple of super ships, they have nothing that can be produced as quickly for the same firepower as the BOP. I'd also put the Negh'Var up against any Federation ship.

There's the question of the frankly ridiculous massive BOP from TNG. I put that as an Ambassador equivalent because without it the Klingons don't have one. I would prefer to have the Vor'Cha as an Ambassador equivalent, the Negh'Var as a Galaxy equivalent, and some new design to tackly the Soveraign, Prommie and Defiant. I frankly refuse to believe an engineer in any time period would build a massive ship externally identical to a smaller one. That ship is just a normal sized BOP in my eyes, the FX people were just smoking crack.

@Son of Mogh

Nova:
Ok I will add a Torpedo launcher (Spread 1 should be enough). Maybe weakening the Phaser banks a bit to compensate.
Oberth:
Yeah especially the first Oberth is a bit too strong. Already have made her weaker in an update but wasnt able to put it online today.

Akira and Intrepid:
I had problems to balance them off against the rest of the ships from the begining. Stats for them would be very welcome. Maybe the Intrepid could be (if that idea gets included become a Explorer to compensate for her beeing crap otherwise).

Klingon ships:

I like your list of ships.
Only problems are the refits for the Klingon ships. Especially with the BoPs as there seem to be a whole bunch of different versions.

I would go like this

BOP:

ENT BOP Raptor or BOP as Destroyer
gets obsolete with the early TOS BOP
TOS BOP gets Refit to Movie BOP
Movie BOP gets another Refit to fit with Miranda Refit 1
The Movie BOP gets obsolete with TNG BOP
TNG BOP gets 2 refits. Initial and first one making it formidable but the last one making it a rather strong and advanced ship making it almost as strong as the first Defiant version.
This last refit is speculation and beyond what we have seen on screen.
I would give that last BOP strong hull and high firepower.

K'tinga

basically same progress as Excelsior. Maybe a earlier refit than the Excelsiors last one.

Vor'cha

Basically same progress as Nebula and Galaxy. Probably always a bit weaker than the Galaxy and stronger than the Nebula.

At the end I would love to see if one of the modelers could come up with a follow up for the Vor'cha so the Klingons also get advanced ship designs at the level of the Prometheus.

Negh'Var could

Negh'Var should be on par with a Sovy but have a bit shorter building time to represent the pure battleship layout.

Science Ships
Dont know maybe they should not get any to represent their warrior stance. Or let the larger ships like K'tinga and Vor'cha have limited science ratings.

BTW we have to make up a system for what science ships are useful for.

Ideas for this:

Exploring: with ships gives RP and Ship Expierience (the higher a to be established science value the higher the RP gained)

Examination: studying a phenomenon or system would reap RP (same as bevfore)

Ships with very high science ratings could give you extra RP per turn (ships with science above 50 give 1 RP per extra point; if a late Nova had 100 it would give you 50 RP per turn for every Nova out there)

Good thinking with the science thing. I'm very tempted to say that Klingons get no science ships, however some of their designs are capable of scientific study. I figure the Raptor has less firepower than other designs, it could double as some kind of frigate with science capability.

Looking at that, would than ships like the Galaxy get a small science capability, obviously completely overshadowed by pure science ships?

I like your list of BOPs, although a Defiant standard BOP seems a little far fetched. The Design is very old and while new models have newer tech, I see that ship as being a hard hitting, lightly shielded ship which can be deployed cheaply and quickly. The Federation equivalent late on could be the Sabre, if you're interested in adding that?


Regarding the actual practice of research points, I figured it would come specifically from scanning certain things in a science ship. The exploration idea you had is good, I guess then it's possible a multi-role ship like a Galaxy could do both potentially, or am I overcomplicating things?

I'll have a look at proposing stats for the Akira and Intrepid that fit with your shiplist, I'll also do a quick Sabre to have a look at, (and while I'm at it a better Defiant )

Guess that science thing has to be carefully balanced.

BOP:
You'r probably right with the late BOP but I think the Klingons at that stage would come up with something that can counter ships like the Defiant. A new BOP design for the late 24th century would be cool.

I have a design for something like that in my head but I just am an awfully bad painter so it probably will stay there.
Its a bit edgier than the old BOP still has the old wingform but is generally a bit more slender and longer. It has 4 disruptors (2 on wingtips and two on either side below the bridge). The two bridge disruptors extend through the front section and their powersystems travel along as big semivisible tubes along the necksection where they disappear in the enineering section. The two round barrellike things in the mainhull are traded for a more edgier blocklike structure that houses 2 torpedo tubes.
Id call it a Mekh'leth class Bird of War.

Yeah, that could work. I guess to be fair the Klingons and all other races should have the capability the reach the same level of tech as the federation. A new BOP which is a completely new design and almost Defiant standard in terms of Power etc could work.
I guess the problem is a ship that strong would be deployed in smaller numbers and the Klings tend to rely on the BOP as the backbone of the fleet. The Federation will never have loads of Defiants so I guess the new version could be powerful, yet not replace the old BOP, or weaker, yet replace it in the build list.

I'd also really like to see a good klingon super advanced cruiser, something Prometheus tech. Would be evil.

It should be its own shipclass and therefor not replace the BOP. I wouldn't like it if I couldnt build BOPs up to the end when playing the Klingons.

Ill probably make the new adaptions I did to the shiplist available tomorow so if you can do the Akira and Intrepid I will include them.

Saber:
Do it we will see what is the outcome. Hope we can retain the uniqueness of most of the ships as every new addition gets us in danger of having several ships with almost the same stats and no specific use.

Fair point, I'll forget the Sabre thing for now.

The BOP thing sounds really cool if you still get the classic BOP.

First attempts for Akira & Intrepid;

Akira-

Shields- 1140
Hull- 220
Phasers- 4 x 65
Torps- 3 x 85

All other stats same, same additions with refits. Ship is still stronger than smaller ships, whilst a fair amount weaker than a Galaxy, which will take longer to build.


Intrepid-

Shields- 900
Hull- 185
Phasers- 4 x 65
Torps- 3 x 85
Sensors- 4

Refit can be same as proposed, will look at than tomorrow. Ship is now fairly light in terms of defence, yet same armament as Akira. Still a massively useful ship as it's much faster than anything except very expensive super ships. Sensor range boosted to facilitate scouting role. This ship makes the perfect border patrol and recon vessel.

I guess I suggested Sabre so we could have a very light, small federation ship, meaning the Defiant could than be a little beefier. I'd have gone;

Sabre-

Shields- 700
Hull- 150
Phasers- 2 x 65
Torps- 2 x 85
Speed- Cruise 3 Max 4
Fuel- 60
Sensors- 3

The ship would replace the Miranda, or be a stand alone destroyer. Then the Defiant could be....

Shield- 950
Hull- 280
Phasers- 10 x 40 (they wouldn't all hit each turn)
Torps- 4 x 120

Maybe I just really like my Defiant.

Just some adjustments to your proposals.
The defense part is good but they seem to be a bit too heavily armed then.
Counterproposal:

Akira:
2x65 Phasers
4x85 Torpedoes

Intrepid
4x75 Phasers
2x85 Torpedoes

But we slowly get into the range of the Steamrunner with both Defense and Attack strength reduced.

One possibility would be to kick the Steamrunner and include the Sabre or to reduce Steamrunner stats to what you proposed for the Sabre.

I see what you mean.

If we had the weak Sabre to act as a cheap light destroyer then perhaps the Steamrunner could be something else? WE see an abundance of both designs in the Ds9 battles so if possible, both would be good.

Looking at role, this could work;

*Intrepid- Scouting, exploration, patrol. Fast, reasonably well armed, good sensors, explorer(?)

*Sabre- The lightest Federation ship during the TNG era. Cheaper than an Intrepid but slower, weaker, less range, less sensors. Your standard mass produced combat ship.

*Akira- Heavier than an Intrepid, yet similar price and build time. A combat vessel which can defeat an Intrepid, yet doesn't have the speed, fuel (?), range, scanning ability. You'd build both types as they have different areas of expertise.

*Steamrunner- Not sure here. Perhaps if the Akira was a little stronger the Steamrunner could be a medium cruser, between the Akira and Sabre? Is there any other purpose it could have?

This is what I have so far. The replacement tags aren't finished.

Federation:
Conestoga
NX
----
Dauntless(aka Daedalus)
Oberth I
Constitution I - Replaces NX
Miranda I - Replaces Dauntless
---
Oberth II
Constellation
Miranda II
Constitution II
Soyuz
Excelsior I - Replaces Constitution
Shelley
---
Cheynne - Replaces Constellation
Springfield
Ambasador
New Orleans - Replaces Soyuz
Chalenger
---
Oberth III
Excelsior II
Miranda III
Steamrunner I
Nebula I - Replaces Ambasador
Akira I - Replaces New Orleans
Galaxy I
Saber
Nebula II
Defiant
Akira II
Galaxy II
Steamrunner II
Intrepid - Replaces Excelsior
Nova - Rreplaces Oberth
Sovereign
Prometheus I
Prometheus II

Klingons:
Colony Barge
Raptor (scout)= NX
---
D-5 = Dauntless (two hits from D5 dropped NX hull plating to 80%. 10 shots to deactivate NX hull plating. Once the hull plating is totaly down you have to pretty much gut the entire ship to take it out of action.)
K-3 Survey Ship ()
D-6 Bird of Prey = Miranda
D-7 = Constitution
---
D-5 II
D-7 II K'T'Inga
Sparrow Hawk (some sort of updated armement Raptor) - replace Raptor
D-17 Bird of Prey I - replace D-6 Bird of Prey
---
-Ambasador
Vor'Cha I
BoP II
---
Vor'Cha II
D-7 III
-Galaxy
BoP III
Negh'Var

You've got a few lesser known classes in there, looks quite interesting. When you get to the stage Zell is at I'll happily go over the stats and refine them etc.

I really don't know exactly where the 'official' shiplist will come from, whether it will be one of these, or a set of specs from outside. I'm honestly starting to care less and less, I'm fairly sure all of these shiplists can be turned into mods, and everyone will simply use their favourite. That's why we may as well continue nailing them.

Ideally, several shiplists could be proposed and the most popular chosen, or even an amalgamation of the best.

Ok at the moment we have the following restrictions

All those ships should be stronger than the earlier Destroyer aka the Miranda Refit 2 and should be at least a bit weaker than the Nebula.

That means there is a narrow margin between where we have to fit those 3 or 4 ships into.

So the list would be

Miranda (weakest)
Sabre (a bit better maybe also cheaper to produce)
Steamrunner
Intrepid
Akira (strongest of them. Last refit could become stronger than the Nebula)
Nebula (respective Refit)

That's true, perhaps then as you suggested the Sabre should be dropped and the Steamrunner weakened slightly or vice versa?

First of all a point about the Akira. This ship is a battle ship and is not designed for research or things like that. A nebula is and is build mostly as a multi role but also requires a lot for researching stuff about anomlies and other things. So althouh a Nebula is bigger then a Akira, it probally wouldn't have the same fire power as one. I think that the main strength of the Akira should be around a galaxy command cruiser, but that is just my thougth about it, as i said it's role is just combat.

Will the nebula have an upgrade option which lets one chose which mission pod is attached.

The arkia is a torpedo boat by design, Don't forget it has that weapons pod between the nacelles, i think 2 phasers but having at least 8 torpedoes should be right, make the torpedos weak but long range for the sake of game play.

as for the saber are we assuming that its good dominion a jemhedar attack ship in strength.... if so maybe it could be put in as a general purpose destroyer,

1 torpedo launcher maybe 2
3 medium power phasers on par with dominion attack ship strength overall.
Or give its stronger shields but less phaser strengh.

the steamrunner could be a scanning ship, long range battle sensors, would explain its unique design, have long range torpedoes as its main defence, about equal to a bop, providing its gets off a good volly withs its torpedoes.

mayb as the mirander is about to be phased out it can be used as a troop transport, its quite big for a distroyer of that era, i would have thought that the space would have been used for cargo or troops.

I know that i have read somewhere that the Steamrunner is the next in the line of small warships like the defiant. I don't remember if this was canon or not. Anyway i think that the steamrunner would fit a research better something like a counterpart for the Akira cruiser that was released during the same period.

To balance that we need to know how science on ships will be handled. If there is no science rating all ships that are multi purpose would become inferior to all the more combat based ones.
To stay 100% canon is problematic if you cant translate a show design to a game design, or the way it is translated doesnt realy work out in the game.

could someone give some kind of official explanation of what benefits multi purpose ships like the galaxy get?

It does everything as well as any ship in existence at the point of its creation. Plus it's fast and can carry a lot of people for a long time.
Just combine the specs of the Vor'Cha and Oberth and make it the fastest ship of the time frame.

I see exactly what you're saying Zell. Basically, in Star Trek, a Galaxy class ship has advanced scientific analysis ability, combat systems, scanners, diplomatic facilities, the ability to allow crewmembers the luxury of having families on board, etc etc etc.

I doesn't matter in Trek that a small science ship like the Nova is a better science ship, or a small warship like the Defiant is a better warship, as those designs are completely limited and can only be deployed for certain missions, both useless in relation to a Galaxy.

In the Game, if a Galaxy cannot conduct science research, it's ridiculous that a Defiant can defeat it. As you say, you might as well build smaller warships, as that's all the Galaxy is reduced to anyway.

Personally, I prefer canon to fitting things in for a game, any mod I make will follow that philosophy. For it to be justifiable that an Akira can match a Galaxy the following must be applied;

*Galaxy must have science ability, although less than half that of a science ship, (maybe less, as there needs to be a reason to build science ships).
*It must be an 'explorer' as Zell proposed, (adding research points for exploring).
*It must have a range at least double an Akira's perhaps more.
*It must have an immense scanner range.
*It must be able to carry many photons, as it doesn't return home much.

If a Galaxy had ALL these things, and an Akira merely had a large spread of photons and decent shields, I believe you'd build both ships, even if they are roughly a match in battle, (although I still believe the Galaxy is a little stronger).

Obviously you can't make the Akira's photons weak as suggested, would be better to just limit the spread.


These things will only really be a problem with the Federation, most othe races don't have loads of similar ships, take the Klingons, during DS9 you can either build BOP (small) Vor'Cha (big) or Negh'Var (f**king big)

I would actually like it if you had a random science ship and you could spend a certain amount of turns at say a wormhole, and as such increase your science rating.. i must apologise if this has been posted before tho i havent had a chance to read through ALL the posts.

i think that we should make a list of the things that will give your research some more points, these are few i like:

Wormhole (already suggested by obitus)
SuperNova systems
Nebulas
Blackholes (don't come to close)
Storms

Well it's already late and i can't come up with some other anomalies, that might be on the map possible for scanning. You can suggest what you want.

Planets of all sorts should give science bonuses as well, when a science capable ship is in a Star System. You can get a bonus based on the most unique planet in the system. More ships means more bonus. The most notable indivigual bonus should be generated by science structures though. While another science structure should increase the bonus generated by science capable ships.

Types of phenomina other than the ones mentioned are:

Temporal Annomolies
Subspace Annomolies
Spatial Annomoles
Artifacts

Those are the three basic catagories for space. Then there are planetary ones:

Artifacts
Life Forms
Geology

--------------

I've also created my ship list. I wasn't sure on what a turn means time wise, so I just made it count as a month, even though that will play hell with the distences and how far and long a ship can travel. They can easly be cut in half though. I'll do combat numbers next.
http://www.geocities.com/joshuapeachy/B ... pList.html

there should be panalties for more ships or thing can be exploited to the sky....

I know, this thread has become a bit dead, but how about limiting it so after x number of turns researching, your ships will automatically stop studying and simply patrol the sector until you give it orders, or simply stop any further research (Like max of 1000 GRP point for a Wormhole, science ship gets 100 per turn of researching. After the 1000 point, the bonus is 'used up'.)

For the space-based research, Neutron stars and X-ray Pulsars should give a research bonus as well, but a smaller one than say a Black hole, Wormhole etc.

Pulsars are thought to be found at the edge of the known galaxy, after all, so they will be a bit of mystry, even in trek times, so researching them should be worthwhile.

Agreed.
You can only learn so much from a single phenomena!

We'd need to sort out the values of each phenomena, and I don't know if it's hard to program (as always)

Perhaps we can give a nebule, nova, etc.. a science max.. I mean 1000/1000 points left to study from this nova. When you "depleted" it, other races, still will be able to study there 1000 points.

Should be different per race, federation high, klingons low, etc...

So basically, what I said...plus the bit about the other empires having separate amounts.

I agree with this though. The Klingons certainly wouldn't be interested in scanning a star, just because they can. On the other hand, the Federation would, because they want to learn!

I think that things like Stars and Nebulae should give a big bonus to the Federation when scanned, whilst Blackholes, Neutron Stars, and Wormholes should give a big bonus to the Romulans, when they scan them.

The Romulans have a preference for energy research after all, and their engines run on Quantum Singularities (Black Holes) Their bonus should reflect this.

maybe klingon technology should advance a little after every battle...
you know to have more power over their oponent, they develope stronger weapons. better engines.. etc...