Well i dont really think the vorta as they are in ds9 have a homeworld. the founders picked them up and heavily edited them, now they just clone them everyso often. They don't grow up or have families they are more a component part.

Wanting to have to fight a hughe empire after conquering 3 others is cool and will still be doable. the dominion do have a lot of other advantadges as matress points out, you wont have to play cannon map all the time, you certainly wont wnat to play it all the time either. How hard the dominion are is an AI thing. Also if at the end of the day you still found the dominion to easy to beat you could build a mod making them harder or installing vorta as a minior. Also this problem will only occur on an absolute cannon map

For initial release though most people (for various reasons) dont seem to like the idea of vorta as a minor.

Did we get all the minors from the dominions quadrant ? Maybe theres one we missed we could add to substitue and quell your fears.

No I got every possible usable Gamma race. I even once tinkered with putting the Verathans in there (an extinct race), but no the total of 14 races (minus the Vorta) will be it for the Gamma Quadrant. They key expandable ones are the Dosi, Hunters, Karemma, and T'Rogorans.

Well the Hunters are a gamma race. The ones you wanted to add. Id be more than happy to call them the Hunters. Could pass it off as a litteral translation of the name for their species which in their language is the same as the word Hunter. Would make sense as they seem to enjoy hunting Tosk, their genetic creation.

Further more their abilities at genetic manipulation and there somewhat brutal culture both led themselves to being closer to the Dominion than other races.

Youve probablya lready seen this page but this is where the hunters can be found.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hunter_%28species%29

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/List_of ... nt_species
the same site seems to suggets the argrathi are a gamma quadrant race too. Your list has them as alpha though. Who is correct ?

A few questions

How come the Ocampa and the Barzan have their "wormholes", but the Bajorans don't? Is it because it would make them too important/strong or what?

How do you get your hands on that little Cytherian bonus?

The Denobulan "Exchange Academy" has a 2% bonus for officers? Just to clear it up, that is 2% of the total pool?

Provisionally an extra 2% of the total yes. It doesn't mean anything yet because we haven't got a full picture on how it will work. It may be a set number of officers in the end, rather than a percentage.

Good point about the Argrathi! It is a Gamma race, and on the first race list it was Orange for Gamma, somewhere along the line I coloured it blue for Alpha by mistake. Thanks for pointing it out.

The Bajoran wormhole hasn't been decided yet. In my mind there are three potential options. 1). It will be a standard wormhole that will come as part of the Bajoran membership. 2). It will be in a sector in the vicinty of Bajor and it's up to you to scan for it and get lucky in order to find it. 3). The Bajoran wormhole won't open/become available until the first Dominion or Gamma quadrant minor race ship comes through it, hence opening it up to be a stable passage.

Personally id like all wormwholes to be invis untill you scan for them and some harder to detect than others so they cant be found till a higher tech. in terms of a cannon map for bajor i think the wormwhole should always be near by the planet in an near by sector and the same in a non cannon random map but in the random map it doesnt matter where the wormwhole links too.

If non of this is possible id go for your option 2 dafdez

Human,Vulcuns,Tellarite, Andorian = Federation
Founders,Vorta,Jem'Hadar = Dominion


if
federation = dominion
and
human = federation
and
founders = dominion
then
vulcuns = vorta

i think the vorta should be a minor, but that is just my 2 cents

I think since the Vorta and Jem Hadar were created by the Dominion as tools, and the fact that the founders have absolute and complete control over them, it would spoil the feel of the game seeing the Vorta joining the Klingons etc.

I suppose it could be possible to make the Vorta only join the Dominion. I mean, make it impossible for them to accept membership to anyone else. Even if you bribe them to worshipful they'd always refuse. Then, the only way to get them would be to invade them.

I think this woul be a great idea!

By making the Dominion explore the Delta Quad before exploring the Alpha/Beta Quads, you ensure the game takes longer. You'd be far less likely to meet them until later on in the game, by which time you'd both have better tech, so you could have some truly huge battles, just like it was in DS9.

And as people are saying "uniting" (I prefer conquering) the Alpha/Beta Quads ready to commence the final battle with the Dominion would make a worthy ending for the many, many, games we would play in BOTF2.

But the vorta don't exist in their current state unless the dominion have already found them. The dominion heavily edited them I remember weyom saying. They don't breed or have families they are just clonned when needed. It would be very uncannon to have them in as a planet on their own. Dont the dominion have enough races now bearing in mind their other natural bonuses and the fact the agrathi are back in the quadrant and maybe even the hunters. This problem will only occur on a cannon map remeber, so effectively a scenario.

For God's sake! They were FREAKIN' MONKEYS! How will we send them diplomatic messages?! "Cheeta! Raise hand! Good Cheeta! Cheeta get deuterium" :!:

Now, you can say the making of the Vorta was a legend told by Weoyun... And I can say the fact that the Federation uses antimatter is an internal joke on the Enterprise!

Weyound says, "We don't have good taste-buds. The founders thought diplomats had no need for them" (or something similar)
We know they made them immune to poisons... How else didn't they alter them?! Whitout being discovered by the Dominion (and it is clear they made overwhelming adjustments and simuntaniously integrated them) they WOULD NOT BE the same race.

Here's a thought, make a planet full of organic goo, and call it the Jem'Haddar. Soon enough, the Dominion will stumble accross it and reengineer the goo into the Jem'Haddar. Also, "make it impossible for them (read: goo) to accept membership to anyone else"

Now, you can make them be a near-by system. And worshiping. And only EVER joining the Dominion! So what is even the POINT?

No point in making a comparison with the Federation and the 4 starting members, or the Vulcans and the Romulans. The Vorta were MADE them from little more than scratch, period.

Hi guys, just got back from a 10 day holiday and I am pleased to see some progress. Just my two cents on the discussions over here.

At first, the Vorta shouldn't be minor races at all. If we do that, we should also make the Jem'Hadar a minor race of its own, which is not possible either. Second, I am (still) against the introduction of those rare races that we don't even have a name for. 'Grathon Tolar’s Race', 'Hunters of Tosk race' and the 'Night Race' can all be scrapped if you ask me. I have no clue what species they are and they probably only showed up once in the entire history of Star Trek in which they were that insignificant that the producers didn't even bother to give them a name. We already have lots of races (lots of which the casual trekkie won't even know already) and I realy don't think we need more races that desperate that we should 'make up races'. Just scrap them al together and let's focus on the more important things.

Also, more race specific, I wonder why the Bolians are now an uber-trade race. I suggest removing one of their trade bonusses and give them the original intelligence bonus from BotF back. Keep the Bolian Trade Union and give them the Cosmetics center back.
I am also a bit puzzled about the number of ships each race has. Why give the Tamarians 3 ship types?? I think 1 suffices for that species. As with the Xindi, I think those would be far more suited to recieve 3 ships, as they received much more attention in the series. (1 episode TNG with the Tamarians versus 1 season ENT with the Xindi)
A small spelling mistake: it is Vidiians, and not Viidians.

And last but not least I like to know how the Caretaker array takes the ships. Do they just get transfered to the Delta Quadrant at random, does it function as a wormhole, or how is it done? If it transfers ships at random, all communication would be cut off, as such it wouldn't be able to serve as a scout for your empire in the delta quadrant, but should be lost more likely in terms of game play.

Regarding CVN's somewhat sarcastic rant, lol, we are at a discussion stage, nothing's been decided regarding the Vorta as yet, this is what the debate is about, just throwing ideas around and seeing what the overall consensus is. I was merely suggesting that if minor races are used with a BoTF 1 template, ie as they were in the first game, we may have no choice. It depends on what Gavin can do in regards to function as a starting component in the Dominion. You see, if all we have is a couple of Vorta related structures, they'd be 'invisible' to gameplay, they wouldn't actually 'appear' in the game, and being such a quintessential facet of the Dominion it would be a shame to not use them more openly, even if it does bend canon a little. We can't adhere to canon with every aspect, it might not be possible to program it the way we want.

I mean, the Founders don't really have a traditional homeworld in canon, with structures such as farms, foundries and laboratories. But the Dominion may just have to function like the other 4 empires, meaning they will have to have these structures just like everyone else. These are the rules of the game that each empire has to play by, with the same buildings, tech trees, and resources to juggle. Some canon will have to be overlooked I'm afraid.

The Hunters race are a rare example of an actual Gamma race, so hence they will probably be in, as Gamma is spread pretty thin. We want as many as possible, and they looked like a cool race. Tolar's unique skills provide a very useful resource in Political sabotage. Ok they only appeared once, but so did the Ktarians. Also, the Bolians' actual ability for cosmetic alteration is not strictly canon anyway. In virtually every mention they've had in trek they are involved with trade runs, so this, in canon, seems to be their strength. The Tamarian ship in 'Darmok' got the best of the Enterprise. Any race that can bring a Galaxy to its knees is strong in my book, militarily speaking. It suggests a technologically advanced and developed species, so this prompted the inclusion of 3 ships for them, and the ability to expand.

Don't know about the Caretaker array yet. It may be a random event, in that a ship will 'appear' in the Ocampa system out of the blue, having been transported there from across the galaxy. The array can then perhaps provide you with alternative transit destinations throughout the galaxy, at random intervals (if you stay in the system), or research bonuses if scanned. Who knows, it's not really been discussed.

I dont go along with the idea that because you feel the vorta arent being used enough we should completely scrap cannon and add them in as a race. It's actually much better to only have a few structures related to them, we all know they are part of the dominion. They are quintessential and so are the jem hadar and we should use them in the right way, if that means only a few structures here and there and maybe some images in random event dialogs (any that may involve vorta) and the diplomacy screen then thats the best way to use them. The overwhelming majority agree they should not be a minor.

I understand the dilema with the changeling homeworld. We could either give them a 'greta link' planet in their homesystem and say that is their homeworld that the great link resides on and nothing can be built on it or go along with the regular structures like you suggest and pawn it off as the fact that they do have structures on theri homeworld as well as the great link it's just that we never seen them in the series. Either would work for me. But please no vorta/jem hadar as a minor.

1st off, sorry if I was rude or anything like that
2nd off, the Founders are tricky of course. We can't have their TREK homeworld be the ingame homeworld. This is a compromise over cannon essential to gameplay, because, well, it's obvious you can't have 4 normal and 1 freak empire

Yes, the Vorta WOULD be a bit in the background if we just added a few buidings to the Dominion and closed the matter. But, unlike defedz, I just don't see them as being all that important for the Dominion. They just feel,... replaceable. The Founders engineered them, they can just make a new one when they like it.

And, yes, in some cases it is silly to blindly stick to cannon, ie because TNG used differently scaled BoP doesn't mean EACH is it's own separate class, but in this case I think sticking to cannon is more simple and, ofcourse, accurate. Well, I do, at least.

I got the solution to our Changeling homeworld problem.

Since BotF is a game in which each SYSTEM counts and not the planets itself, we can just make a unique planet in the Dominion home system (anyone has a clue how it is called, btw?) which has no growth rate or population and looks like the great link. It IS the great link. And instead of making it a special structure, it is a bonus that affects the dominion at all times until the system has been conquered.
This planet should be a class of its own and be unique in the entire galaxy, with its own looks and such. The Link will give moral bonusses and such so that the planet is not useless.

All the other planets in the system can then be used to build normal structures and to house people, just as the other races'.
Heck, for all we know the Vorta homeworld can be a planet in the home system of the dominion (name the planet 'Vorta' for instance) and we solved that problem as well.

That would be the ideal solution - the Dominion keep the Vorta, they're not in as a minor race, and you don't need any specific structures to 'create' the Dominion.

There is one or two things I feel should be mentioned though (If I didn't someone else would anyway. )

1) If the Vorta are given a homeworld, shouldn't the Jem'Hadar have one too?
2) WHAT type of Planet should they have?
3) WHAT structures would they have?
4) Is it prograamable/workable?

Someone was bound to have asked...

In contrast to the vorta, the Jem'Hadar are a completely "genetically invented" race, while the vorta were just "redesigned". That's a fact which makes clear why the pre-humanoid vorta have a homeworld, but the Jem'Hadar don't.

Hence, my comparison to "organic goo" and "Cheeta"

____
Yes, Centurions idea would be OK, except the bonus must be well balanced, because otherwise:
1. if it'll be a small bonus, the Dominion would be better off with a big M-class planet
2. if it'll be a big bonus it just gives the Dominion a bigger edge, adding to those it already has

And, last, since I can't help nitpicking (:oops:), the Founder homeword is a rouge planet. Ofcourse if the idea can be implemented I'm all for it

ok nothing can in fact live on a rogue planet, it would be a big ball of ice, it would have no atmosphere, it was stupid of the writers to even put that in.
the dominon home system could work as vardin said, just have the vorta on a planet in the founders home system, but still have weyoun as the face of the dominion. the jem`hadar should i think work as a defensive bonus, say jem`hadar squadrons +50% ground defense.

In response to CVN's rant.... A litle harsh, but all godd points, either way.

When it comes down to it, to me, I dont care how the game attempts to explain it (or even if it tries to explain it), but I dont want to see the Vorta or Jem Hadar on their own. They should be with the Dominion from the start.

Var'Din and dafedz, while its not recent, the caretaker array was discussed over on the Random Events sticky thread.

Ok, since I mentioned it, I went back to see exactly what was discussed about the Caretaker array. It was all the way back on page 9 and 10 of that thread (out of 22 or so). When I went back to look, I was supprised how litle was actually accomplished in the discussion.

What was decided was that the Caretaker array should act like similar to the Edo guardian from the first game (but not quite as strong). It was also decided that the Carataker array would, at some point, teleport some ships to the Ocampan homeworld. Thats about it about what was decided.

Things talked about, but not decided on:

Should the Caretaker start to 'die', at a later part of the game, like it did in the series?
How exactly to handle the Ocampa. Here are two ideas I came up with awhile ago, and posted in the random event thread.
1. Other empires cannot make contact with the Ocampa until the Cartaker is gone. This can be accomplished by either waiting til the Careaker 'dies', or to bring a fleet of ships and destroying the array (this would not be easy, just ask someone who has tried to get rid of the Edo's guardian). If this is how the Ocampa are handled, I think that whatever their 'empire specific building' is, it should be a very good one, to make up for the fact that you have either waited a long time to make contact with them, or you have just used a pretty big fleet of ships putting the Caretaker out of his misery to make contact.
OR
2. Treat them like the Edo in the original. The caretaker allows contact, and wont blow you out of the sky, as long as you dont make any hostile moves against them. (I think if this option is taken, the Ocampa should start as 'hostile' or 'icy' to any empire that is making contact with them. {Using BOTF's method of another empire's affinity to you} The reasoning behind that is to make you have to 'jump throught some hoops', proving to the Caretaker that you trully have peaceful intentions towards its 'children'.
Finally, just how and when should the Caretaker teleport other empires ships towards it? On the when, I believe it shouldnt be until about TNG era or so, unless other people would like it to happen earlier, or later. On exactly how ships are taken there, I proposed that at a certain time in the game invisible 'Bermuda triangles' appear all over the map (these could also just be certain hexes), and the 'triangles' would disappear after a certain ammount of turns. The player cannot see them, but when a ship of their flies into it, it is transported to the caretaker array, after that, that specific triangle closes. There was also the idea that if a fleet flies into the triangle a few, or even all are transpoted.

Ok, what do you all think. Like I mentioned earlier, these are all ideas from a few months ago, and are definately open for debate. Lets try to actually solved this problem this time.

I've read the random events thread, i just can't remember what the consensus was regarding the array.

Anyway, yes i see the points of views. The Jem'Hadar will not be a minor race, period, so i guess it's fine that the Vorta aren't either. I back the idea of the Dominion homeworld angle as well, it was never going to be a rogue planet either, hidden by some nebula. It needs to be a regular system like any other.

As the other empires have their advantages and disadvantages, and the Dominion are quite strong, maybe we can balance this by tailoring the Dominion home system accordingly. Maybe they should start out with 1 large Barren planet (the Founders), and a few others types (to be decided) in the system, unterraformed. The other races start out with terraformed planets and basic structures in place, such as shipyards even. Perhaps the Dominion should start with nothing, nothing but a pond of goo (lol CVN). With them are the Vorta by default, and the Jem'Hadar. After contructing the first farms the populace with grow (Vorta), and then with reactors being built they have the ability to power more advanced structures, such as the shipyards, shield generators, etc. Perhaps they could start out this way, with literally nothing.

Oh and BTW CVN, the BoP variant the K'Vort (supersized) will return for this game as the Klingon Heavy Cruiser...

If they start with NOTHING...how do they actually build stuff?

Are they gonna have like 5 points of industry to start off with, like in BOTF?

If they have to build from scratch, this would actually tie in well with the idea of having them only explore the Gamma and Delta Quads.

If they are building up from scratch, they would need slightly longer to do so.

Whilst the Federation/Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians battle it out in the Alpha/Beta Quads, the Dominion would grow slowly and explore the Gamma Quad. They would then move onto the Delta Quad and expand much, much, more quickly.

By the time you then manage to meet them late on in the game, they would be an advanced and far-flung Empire. The perfect challenge for your victorious fleets, and a great way to keep people playing right on to the end of th game... (As if they 'd need a reason! )

Im glad you like the idea of a unique planet in the system for the dominion. A very minor point, could we have its description come up as The Great Link or somethign similar to what i suggest origionally as technically its not barren. i would also suggest this planet have small building space or add to population in a small way as the founders would have needed to build ships to get of the planet in the first place and they cant do that on goo (this isnt a major point though just a suggestion).

Also i very much favour your idea of the dominion having a slightly slower start than the other races but i would caution that once again when people mention this is good as they will slowly explore gamma etc etc they forget all of this is only applicable to cannon map. Make sure whatever negatives you give the dominion in terms of growth at the start it doesnt weaken them to heavily on random map.

The big problem is that the changelings do everything different than us mere beings. On the great link there is nothing. No buildings, nothing. They don't need them. They didn't need to 'build' ships, they change into a ship and set off to conquer their home system. So Matress, some is true for your argument, they wouldn't be able to 'build' things on their homeworld since there are no resources to build anything with. There homeworld is nothing but one living organism. Which is also the reason it should be a unique planet.
I don't know how canon explains their initial foothold in the galaxy, but I presume they just change into something that could fly off.

If we take that as a given, we could indeed give the dominion a barren system (as in: no structures at all) and allow them to colonise and build initially without the need for ships.
I can imagine this to be a bit difficult. As an alternative we can give them two planets. The great link and the Vorta Homeworld which has just been overrun with changelings and with which they can colonise the rest of the system.

Bottom line, we must be carefull with slowing down the dominion too much. As it may be workable while playing a canon map since there won't be any majors nearby, but if you play a random map (which will be the most used option I figure) it would be undoable if you find the Klingons only a few lightyears away.

I know this is a bit much to ask for, but what if the bonuses/weaknesses of the races was different between the two game types?

On the canon map, the races advantages and 'personalities' would adhere strictly to how they are portrayed in the various series/films. The Dominion could then be slow starting, but fast growing later on.

We could make the Cardassians low on mineral wealth (Few resources) and give the Romulans very little Dilithium. The Klingons would have much more difficulty in getting 'nice' minor races to join, whilst the warlike ones would be much more willing to join them. The Federation could then be the total opposite. (Obviously this isn't too different anyway)

However, on the random map, the game would be less strict, more relaxed. The Dominion wouldn't start off slow, and the different races could have all of the bonuses we want them to have.

Seeing as this is where all the mods that we put in the game will be found anyway, I don't see that this would cause too many problems, eexcept with maybe programming.

The thing is, the Dominion is unlike the other empires. It spans 10,000 year into the past, so when the Dominion was starting up, civilisation on Earth was non-existent (not even written word existed), the Romulans would have still been Vulcans and Klingons are not yet unified under Kahless.

I don't know if it's a good idea to treat the Dominion like the other empires in terms of starting conditions. At the time Earth is sending out the NX-01, the Dominion is a 9,800 year-old empire, and now you're giving them absolutely equal starting points. On one side, you want the Dominion to have only the Founder-home world and the Vorta with a few Jem'Haddar, while at the same time Earth (which was NOTHING at the time the Dominion began) has unified it self and has interstellar crafts. There is a 9,800 year span between these two events, guys


Remeber, if the Dominion war had been fought on Dominion ground, the Alliance wouldn't have stood a chance. That is point you guys keep forgeting. DS9 makes it look like the Feds, Klingons and Roms are a match for the Dominion; they're not! Exactly for the reason above, the Dominion's been around for quite a while.

We have to decide; just give the Dominion a normal system they would already have at the time (actualy, they would have a LOT more than just ONE) or we combine and compensate for the 8,000 year difference which enables us to play with the Dominion from the start (Great Link planet and all )
...

Also, the Founders don't need ships. They can become space-faring lifeforms (DS9: Chimera), but giving them a shipyard is still the best thing to do