Hamas is very closely associated with Al Quida, and Hamas is behind the attacks on Israel. UN reports, (you have to dig to find them) reval that Sadam was in fact working on nuclear wapons again (just like they were back in the 80's) When Bush was putting the pressure on Sadam before the war to him to cooperate with the inspectors, Sadam produced and destroyed Al Samud missiles which he had claimed he never had in the first place . Iraq is close to the size of Texas. Now imagine for a sec trying to find something the size of a semi truck trailor buried somewhere in Texas. That is the challenge being faced in Iraq... Even more so considering that SatCom monitored large convoys going from Iraq to a large well defended valley in Syria. Crates containing components for building nuclear wepons have been discovered in various ports scattered throughout the world that originated in Iraq. Connections have also been uncovered connecting Iraq with the WMD program going on in Libya... And the list goes on... Sadam had been practicing hiding this stuff since the first gulf war and his agents had become very skilled at dismantaling and moving WMD related things before inspectors could arrive on site thanks to him having the inspectors being spied on (which was against the rules by the way). If his agents could pull that off in a matter of hours.... Imagine what they could do with a few months... Like for instance, the around what... a 9 month lead up to the war. Besides, Sadam had often stated his hatered of the US and the rest of the free world and his intentions to do whatever he could in aiding Al Quida with their attacks.... Common hatred has a tendency to bring together even the most different of groups... Even Al Quida and Sadam...

OK... Thats all. Also, despite how it may seem... I am out for a debate either... I have just been forced into so many regarding this topic that I cant help but to finish elaborating on what I said...

Now it's time to get back on topic.... On the radio I have been hearing reports of even more terroist attacks in London.... Fortunately, no deaths are being reported and around one injury...

bastards did it again

brilliant the passangers attacked the bombers and we capture a bomb for analysis. This is what we need for the people to stand up against them.

isn't gavin from london? i think they are trying to stop our game...

You guys know so little about the politics going on in the world its scary.

Ill give you all a bit of a rundown on stuff that has happened that few people realize.

July, 1979: A USA CIA "Asset" by the name of Saddam Hussein gains control of the Baath party and becomes president of Iraq.

September, 1980 Saddam invades Iran

Early 1982, Saddam is loosing the war, and USA CIA agents rearm and aid Iraq military forces.

End of 1983, USA is providing satallite images to iraq forces, AND funneling $5.5 billion in loans intended to "promote american farm exports" to assist iraq in purchasing weapons.

From 1986 through 1989 transactions took place between USA and Iraq that included bactirial cultures to make weapons grade anthrax.

1988, Iraq gassed over 5,000 using helicopters purchased from the USA.

August 2, 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Desert storm, an opperation of 573,000 USA troops, 100,000 sorties, and 85 tons of bombs was launched on january 16, 1991 and was over barely one month later on february 28, 1991 and still Saddam remained in power.

During desert storm, USA citizens where told we where "Freeing the Iraqi people", however no mention was made that more Iraqi citizens where killed in baghdad (only baghdad) on saturday april 5th (only on this one day) then the number of american citizens killed at the WTC on September 11, 2001.

Also not mentioned was that during the 3 weeks of war, more then three times the number of iraqi's where killed then the 50,000 americans killed over 12 years of time in vietnam.

The USA also used "tactics" during desert storm, and operation iraqi freedom, which are against the rules stated by the geneva convention.

Some of these include:

ALL tv, radio, and other forms of information services in Iraq are now under USA military control. Recently there was one TV station in Mosul that was running independant of all other stations and was not under USA control.
Major Charmaine Means (commanding officer in the zone) was ordered to seize the station. She refused twice stating that to do so would mean the station would be intimidated into airing only materical approved by the USA military. She was relieved of duty and the station was seized by military coalition forces. Shortly after the station burned down in an "accedental fire". Even thou the military in the area where less then 1 block from the station, somehow they failed to arrive in time, and even "inavertantly" slowed the fire departments from arriving in time to save the station.

Col David Hogg, in an off the comment remark noted that USA forces routinely take hostages QUOTE " My troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant and left a note. If you want your family released , turn yourself in". END QUOTE. This is hostage taking, another thing the geniva convention is against, and something the USA supposedly supports.

USA forces kept sick and injured civilians away from hospitals during the siege of Falluja, but noone noted that this behavior is a war crime.

Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey, a veteran of the invasion of iraq, reported that he and his troops where ordered to, and did fire on unarmed protesters, killing most of them.

Brittish and USA forces continue to use depleted uranium weapons despite massive evidence of negative health effects. The childhood leukemia rate in iraq trippled after 300 tons of DU was dispersed into the air, soil, and water during the 1991 gulf war. In 1989 there were 11 abnormal births per 100,000 births. in 2001 there where 116 abnormal births per 100,00 births.
In 1988, 34 Iraqi's died of cancer, in 1998, 450 died from cancer, and in 2001 603 died from cancer. The increases where over 10 times as many birth defects, and over 17 times as many cancer deaths.

these and many more stories never made headlines in any national news.
however there are sites that these stories can be found at and even more information is avalible.
The main site to go to is http://www.projectcensored.org
from there you can read all the stories i posted above, as well as many more, check out where the sources came from, and more.
There is also links to many other sites with much more information.

Also if you feel like looking up some of this same information posted by the military itself go to http://www.gulflink.osd.mil

aparently it was a plain clothed officer with a hand gun stood over the bloke and blasted him full of holes.

only three more to go

I'd prefer them to be tortured than killed quickly...

Making you almost as bad as them. Torturing is their domain its what we fight against, we certainly dont do it for revenge any how.

Ye I heard about attempt number 3, tripped up over a subway train enterance lol. For them to have shot him on the floor he must have kept wriggling about like he was going to pull a a pin on some explosives or something.

Also fox there never was any hard evidence linking sadam to having weapons of mass destruction just that he wanted to develop them and was constantly looking into getting ways to do it which the entire international community had known for 10 years at least. We were lied to to go to war, doesnt matter if the outcome was good or not. Also look at how many UN and US laws the US government breaks by detaining people in quantanamo! the only reason they get away with it is because its no US soil. its so hypocritical.

Well take this issue back up at a later date in a dedicated topic.

Also, how can you pump a dead body for information? Whats worse, torturing a known terrorist for information on upcomming terrorist attacks and saving lives, or just letting them murder innocent civillians and us doing nothing to try to prevent it?

If this bloke was one of the people attempting the attack yeaterday, wouldn't the police have wanted to question him rather than murder him. I thought they were able to shoot people in the arm or leg not just the head.

i think he was wearing a thick coat (at this time of the year) so they couldnt tell if he had a bomb under it, so they just took him out rather than leaving him as risk to civilians on a train near by.

he refused the polices commands.

You don't understand these terrorists... They plan on blowing themselves up in the first place, do you honestly think that a bullet in the arm will stop them from pushing a button that could possibly be in the terrorist's hand? The only way to prevent a muscel reaction capable of setting off a trigger is by shooting a person in the head... Otherwise, people have a tendency to flinch when they exerience sharp pain. Sharp pain that could be caused by a needle, or a bullet from a pistol hitting any part of your body.

Umm if theres a problem with the laws of your constitution with regards to holding and interrogating terrorists you do the right democratic thing which is to have those laws changed so you can hold the terrorists on your own soil. You dont hypocritically go and ship the terrorists of your own soil (so your laws don't technically apply) to a country that has been one of your worst enemys for the last 50 years a country which it is infact illegal for US citizens to travel too and a country thats only given you the land because it doesnt want to get invaded its self. America and other democratic countries can't be beacons of democracy if they can't obey their own laws. Fighting terrorism is a great cause, bush's saving grace in my view as I dont agree iwth any of his other principals but hypocracy on such a grand scale wont convince anyone.Theres a right and wrong way to do it.

Fox is right about them blowing themselves up in the first place. If they have links with terrorism and dont do what you ask them then dont hang about id kill em in a heart beat. Also about police in britian not aiming for the head, usually armed police are instructed to aim for the body but i read on the news yesterday that secret protocols had been passed allowing officers to aim to kill and to aim for the head - hence he was shot 5 times.

Well I'm so sorry for not realising. But its a bit brutal the cops shooting someone 5 times at close range.

Sorry for being blunt like that. Also, this man may not have been carrying any explosives and he may not even be a terrorist. Some people act a lot differently when in danger. Or that's the latest i heard about it.

he had wmd, he had used them in the past on his own people.
quantanamo bay does not in fact breach any laws, the people there are pow.
only asswipes who think the us is always wrong would in fact complain about a bunch of murdering terrorists being lock up.
no lies were told about the reasons for war, he had them, but he hid thme in a billion square miles of desert.

I thought the US obeyed the geneva convention. With what goes on in Guantanamo i'd say they're breaching human rights.I don't believe the any of the Britons in there had done a thing wrong and were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

ys they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
the wrong place being in an al`queda stronghold fully armed and shooting at both british and american troops, so not only are they terrorist they are guilty of treason.
how is holding pow`s in a camp any different to the way it was done in both world wars?

GO JIG! (My new hero)

No the people there arent technically POW as they arent part of a recognised army. This is a grey area america is using to hold them in quantanamo, yes laws are being breached. the geneva convention is being breached if they are infact POW's as the UN would probably want them to be known and it would be a minefield of laws the US government would have to get through to hold the prisoners on their own soil . And if your sure he had weapons of mass destruction and hid them in the dessert please tell the UK government this as they have already said now its likely he didn't have them at the time of invasion and hadn't had them for some while.

Also I never said I thaught the US was always wrong but im not overly thrilled by the fact they wont practice what they preach. If theyd actually bother to do things the hard and correct way when it comes to detaining terrorists I'd be a lot happier with it. Holding POW's in guantanamo is very different to how the americans and british held POW's in world war 2 because its in sodding quantanamo and not on a regulated part of US soil where any breaches of the law would be much easier to monitor and infact the length at which some of these terrorists have been held would be completely illegal. Ive no problem with interrigation of know terrorists or detaining them for hughe ammounts of times as long as their are laws to cover it, instead of making such laws the US government chooses to ship them all off to quantanamo which looks very shady indeed.

Im willing to bet you don't think anything the americans and british forces do is wrong and in fact we can pretty much do what we like with the middle east and it will be justifiable due to 9/11 ??

no not at all, prisoner abuses should be dealt with harshly and immediatly in open so people can see that we do practice what we preach.what all the bleeding heart liberals seem to ignore is that since 9/11 america has been at war with the most pernacious and deadly enemy ever, they will kill themselves on a schoolbus ful of kids, they will behead people and record it for the world to see, yet these acts never seem to be condemed by those who will happily condemn the war, america, england our troops, and all that is in fact good and decent in the world, they will defen a terrorists rights, and ignore the rights of the rest of us to live in peace witout the fear of being blown to bits by some asshole. i was raised in ireland at the height of the troubles and i can tell you in no uncertain terms, to root out this evil and destroy it is the most important battle going on in the world today.

The reason we should abide by it is because that separates us from them. That seperates us from hilter, that seperates us from animals. We have laws to protect people, and to be placed before his peers so that he can be proven innocent or giulty. To lock someone up for no reason and no trial is not fair. I think the justice system is too much red tape, but it should still be followed using common sense. Let the judges have their freedom to rule.

You cannot call that man a twat. Unless he did something wrong he has nothing to answer for. And he didnt, yet. He is stupid for bringing a walkie talkie on a train and the police should be called, but what next? A muslim looked at me funny, call the police?
A muslim is sweating on a train --- he is a bomber...

This is going to divide the country and make racism a serious issue... And attutides like 'kill them all' arnt helping... i have asian friends and they were shouted at the other day in the street by kids fr being bombers.. its a big problem now in northern ireland.

Imagine you emigrated over to pakistan, and a few christians started blowing things up and you were arrested and locked away for no reason other than you were white, how would you feel?

hmm, burn al mosques? i think not, it is not a religon which causes this, it is a creed. these people think less of their own lives than others. they believe killing kids or women is fine in the name of allah, bollocks, the koran says the same as the bible, thou shalt not kill. those who do in the belief that 72 virgins are awaithin them will be sorly disapointed, cos i was there first

Problem with this, is that its a moot subject. First off, like gav said, A no one, espically anyoe who remotely looks caucasian should move to Pakistan, unless they had a death wish, and B. Christians dont blow themselves up in suicide bombings. Give me one example of it.

Dont get me wrong Undated, you are right that we need to de different in how we act in order to not bring ourselves down to their level, but you can only restrict yourself so much before your hands are completely tied.

One of the best speeches about the war on terror comes from Team America. Its the speech about the three types of people in the world, from the end of the movie. Its meant to be comedy, but they make an excellent point there. Anyone whos seen the movie should know what I mean.

That would make me feel like the people were racist b***ards, its a great shame that people of different faiths or creeds can't get a long sometimes. Also in regards to Christians blowing things up, i don't think they can be true Christians: "Love Thy Neighbour" does that mean you can blow things up?

Jig, no one has proved whether the British in (and who were) Guantanamo are terrorists but in regards to anyone in there, some of the things you see on tv, whether these people are terrorist or not, their basic rights DO NOT CHANGE

All very well and good but you have to fight the war on the principals you stand for or they already start to win. Calling everyone who has a problem withe the war or america a "bleeding heart liberal" or "asswipe" as you so colourfully put it is a bit narrow minded and makes you sound like a die hard American Republican who doesn't believe his country can do wrong. (and yes i realise you arent american its just a comparison). The War on terror is a great idea but the way the war on iraq has been conducted is pretty piss poor in terms on international legality and the reasons given for going, thats regardless of the fact it got rid of an evil tyrrant.

At least you understand that its the manipulation of the Koran by a certain few and not all the muslims that believe this ****. Ive meat some very nice muslims in my time. I was starting to worry you were one of thos Nazi BNP members for a bit, can't stand that scum.

Also gav you dont get your head kiked in for practicing christianity in pakistan (at the moment. Although the government officialy recoginised Islam as the state religion in the 60's it also passed laws allowing religious freedom. However recent legislation does raise concerns over how long you will be able to practise religions other than islam so your scenario about reading a bible and getting your head kiked in may sadly not be to far away. A great shame seeing as Musharef seems like a reasonable person in most other quaters.