Good luck, you must be really good already

if you whant to know
Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle:

Δp*Δx=h/(2*Pi)
h is the plank's constant
p is the momentum (related to the speed of the particle)

The more precisely the POSITION is determined,
the less precisely the MOMENTUM is known


maybee i'm a physisist

Man physics at A-level used to hurt my brain, especially particle physics bits! .
Now i just work as a Big Yellow and Green taxi. Most of the voices have stopped now.
NO we haven't....sshhh im talking!. DOH!

Medic go see yourself, then it'll stop

Ahh, never thought of that, but which one of myself do i see??.

read this thread and im having nightmares about physics!!

Awfully impressive tho.

1) Protomattar is not required for terraforming, it's not even strictly required for the Genesis Device either. In the movie they said Protomatter was just the best meterial despite it being extremely unstable. The Federation has terraforming ships that were mentioned on a ship list screen in TNG once. As a technology it wouldn't be bad having Genesisforming, that would be a very good one.

2) Completely random invented sciences and techologies have been placed in the list already and it does sound stupid. It still doesn't make sense for these basic technologies to be researched so late in the game when they are required so early in the game. That is why it would be far better to have sensible sounding original fields with descriptions that are not non-sensical. Besides, I have already reorginised and filled in most of the places, only leaving four technologies to be invented and described.

As it is, it is just a random collection of names with randomly applied names. In its current state the names are completely surperfluas since the tech tree is so increadably linear. Leaving Bio-01 and Bio-02 as just that is preferable to having names that don't add anything to the acheivement.

3) Cold fusion is completely different from hot fussion and is thought to be impossible to achive by most scientists. Only the US Navy is doing some minimal research into cold fusion because of oddities in the results of cold fusion related experiments.

4)Then Matter conversion should just be called Replicator technology. Or better yet, keep the name and description I came up with so it is better related to Bio tech.

5) We've seen plasam leaks in Star Trek before, if they were the super heated star temperature plasma you think, then the corridors would emidatly explode and no one would get close enough to use those little plasma extinguishers. There is also the episode where Geordi mentions putting his hand in a plasma stream and it being tingly. Some plasma may be hot but certainly not all of it.

6) Anti-Matter Fusion is a bad reuse. If they want larger anti-matter particles they should be able to just generate larger ones in the first place and I don't know why they would want larger ones. It would just make the particles more difficult to contain.

7) You care, you stated it here, "But if we placed completely random invented sciences and technological fields, it will just sound well, stupid, and too contrived." You are right, it does sound stupid and contrived. Since this game isn't the last game, stupid techs and descriptions such as the one for ultraconductors should be removed. They can be replaced with far more realistic technologies such as room temperature, organic, super conductors. Such things are real or should be someday.

8) ZPE hasn't been used in Star Trek ever to my knowledge. It was used in the Deap Space 9 technical manual which is not canon. If you want a higher energy source, go with Omega Particle research. It doesn't really matter that the research failed, the gleenings of information from it could still be useful. Or you can call it, primordial subspace particle physics, that actualy sounds pretty good.

9) It'll require a complete rewrite of the description but should be all, the name is interesting. Determinacy relates to this word, determinate.

adj.
Precisely limited or defined; definite: a determinate number; a determinate distance.
Conclusively settled; final.
Firm in purpose; resolute.
Botany.
Terminating in a flower and blooming in a sequence beginning with the uppermost or central flower; cymose: a determinate inflorescence.
Not continuing indefinitely at the tip of an axis: determinate growth.

Here are some helpful pages for tech research.
http://www.federationspace-rpg.net/scie ... ience.html
http://www.ditl.org/
http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/

I do not have time to reply to all of MajorDiarr's compliants. Needless to say, some I agree with completely; others I certainly do not. The one I would like to address emediately, however, is that of anti-matter fusion.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a great idea! That is to say, I whole heartedly dissagree with MajorDiarr. Carting around hydrogen sucks! Seriuosly sucks!

1) It's bulky. It has the lowest density of anything. (Come one, don't nit-pick: anything stable.) Since M/AM reactors are releasing energy stored within the mass of your anti-matter fuel, the density of the fuel dictates how much energy you can store in a given tank, and thus the range of the ship. Increasing the density would increase the range... IF it takes the same amount of energy to store...

2) Energy intensive to store. Hydrogen (and anti-hydrogen) are stored as a liquid (or, if possible, a solid) for best results. This is both a question of density and containment. As a gas, it'll go where ever it can. This is a problem for containment. As a liquid, surface tention will make it want to stay in one place. (As a solid... Well it ain't goin' far, is it?) To keep hydrogen in a liquid state you need either great pressure or great cold, both is better. Either are energy intensive. Both is *very* energy intensive. (Keeping it as a solid is the same but much more so.)

3) As anti-matter, hydrogen requires a larger magnetic field to contain, pound for pound, than any other substance substance known to man. As the element's periodic number goes up, so does the charge at its nucleus; but its mass per nuclear partical goes down! This is why fusion produces energy in the first place: the two small particles that are fused have more combined mass than the single particle they fuse to become; the difference in mass is put into energy. (E=mc^2) Thus, though more dense fuels would require more intense magnetic flux to contain, you will actually be spending less energy per pound; which translates directly to fuel economy... And RANGE!

Of course, all this also means you'll need *far* more hydrogen to combine with your antimatter fuel to have a complete conversion. An anti-carbon nucleus, for example, would need 12 hydrogen nuclei for full converstion. Anti-iron takes 55 hydrogens.

(For those who undestand what I'm saying, you've probably noticed a "flaw". But be assured, if you do the calculations yourself, you will get the same answers and see what I'm talking about...)

My preference in anti-elements is iron. It's the heaviest end-result element you can get from an energy-producing fusion fire: it takes more energy to fuse iron than you get out of it. Its magnetic properties mean that it can be stored conveniently as a solid chunk, positrons and all. The magnetic properties also help to collect the fuel for your reactor without dealing with super-heated particals: if you boil off some of the surface with a low power laser, the gas can be collected with a simple magnetic field even though the gas is not a plasma. Iron56 is an extremely stable isotope: no radioactivity!

Yeah. A chunk of iron and a chunk of anti-iron. We're talking huge savings on space and storage overhead. Plus, it actually gives you energy to create it the anti-iron... Of course, you have to have anti-hydrogen in the first place and this is likely to remain an energy-sucker.

As to why they wouldn't create larger anti-particles in the first place, I would have to ask: How? We can make anti-hydrogen now... But anti-any-thing-else? I just don't see how. You'd have to invent a new way of dealing with matter... And if you tell me "use replicators", I'll say, "Well, why not just use replicators to turn hydrogen to anti-hydrogen on the fly?" ... If you give it some thought, it's the same statement/question. You want to make anti-Iron? You *can* fuse it from anti-hydrogen... eventually... it'll take a few dozen steps. But it *can* be done. Replicators? Direct mass-energy converstion? These things create more problems then they solve, from a story telling point of view.

I'll cut it short there.

The problems being that anti-iron is never mentioned in Star Trek, creating anti-iron just sucks up more energy and sounds very complicated, even if it would really take less energy to store than anti-protons, and I would think create a dirtier reaction than a proton to proton reaction. I would also think that protons would be far easier to store magnetically than anything between them and iron.

Really, anti-matter isn't what the energy of the warp core is derived from. It has been stated several times that the warp cores are dilithium powered. Warp cores also produce more energy than if the entire mass of the Enterprise-D were turned into equal parts matter and anti-matter. The M/AM reaction is more like a catalyst.

No, that's simply wrong. The dilithium matrix is used like a moderator in today's nuclear fission to control the matter/antimatter-inflow to the reaction core. That was clearly stated in the first season of voyager when they stated the need of deuterium on the one hand but of a dilithium recreation chamber as well.

The energy of the Warp Core comes from the 'explosion' that occurs when Matter and Anti-Matter 'particles' combine in the the Warp Core.

The Dilithium Crystals convert and channel this energy into the Warp coils, providing them with the energy needed to fold Space around the ship, thus creating a Warp Bubble and allowing them to 'travel' through Space at faster-than-light 'speeds'.

The ship itself is not physically moving. Instead, Space itself is being moved around the ship. The Point of origin is pushed away, whilst the destination is pulled closer to the ship, which is why the ship seems to 'stretch' as it goes to Warp. The more finely you can control the 'bubble' of Subspace around the ship, the less energy is wasted, so the 'faster' you can go.

That's actually something that I cannot agree on. The energy of a (sub)atomic particle is defined by it's mass (E=mc²) ans it's speed. Thus, the released energy in a matter/antimatter reaction is constant. Common modern physics also says in a given system the energy is always constant in the sum of all paticles and their speeds. I'd like to know how this Trek-generated energy-out-of-nowhere is supposed to be explained

Star Trek says you are wrong and Star Trek rules us all, you've forgotten the Omega particle. Or the Omega particle and Dilithium are just super heavy transuranic stable elements, which do exist in Star Trek as well. Then again, they way dilithium is used doesn't really fit that except when isotopes are used as part of an explosive.

Here are some nice dilithium power based quotes.


Invoking subspace really is the right thing to do.

MajorDiarr, I find it interesting that you mostly quoted Voyager However, I believe you have misinterpreted the quotes that you have placed in your post. An easy, yet incomplete comparison of a M/AM reaction and dilithium crystials/matrix is to gas and an internal combustion engine.



Not so, when you start up your car. It is always best to let it run for a while to allow the engine to warm up. You don't have to on smaller vehicles, but as you increase in size and power (all the way up to jet engines), you have to give more and more time for the engine to warm up. It only makes sense for a warp core to be the same way.





Again, hardly conclusive. If you look at a corvette, do you say, "Wow what a car, its gas powered"? or do you say "Wow what a car, that's got a V-8 with 400 horsepower"?



Sorry, but not so. If you take a 2 cylinder engine and put it in a MAC truck, I don't care how much gas you give it or what kind of gas you give it, that truck ain't gonna move. Same with dilithium, ships have to have a certain amount to be able to run, just like certain vehicles have to have certain size engines.





I don't see how this pertains to your argument that dilithium is an energy field. Trilithium, as stated in Generations, is a compound made from dilithium and other metals to stop all fusion in a star. Just like titanium is made from various metals. So this actually indicates that dilithium is a solid of some kind.




This is not conclusive that dilithium is an energy field, but in fact evidence of the contrary. We have heard stated many times in TNG, DS9 and VOY that dilithium is found in crystals. Dilithium is also mined on asteroids and planets. Hence, some type of solid. The frequencies statement fits quite well with this, all crystals have frequencies when you strike them in certain ways. Modern physics has also shown that hey have frequencies when struck with concenstrations of energy aka. a laser beam. So I'd imagine that a M/AM reaction inside a dilithium crystal would generate one hell of a frequency spectrum.

The only thing that dilithium does that is exotic to our physics realm is that it amplifies and channels the plasma created by a M/AM reaction. However, even that can now be related too in modern physics. Lasers and particle beams can be channeled and amplified by certain types of crystals even today.

So, dilithium is in fact not an unknown energy field, but a type of unknown crystal that channels and amplifies the M/AM plasma and acts just like a crystal should.

Cheers

this has given me a headache less thearotical pyhsics i beg you

jigalypuff:

I am sorry but I can not comply with your request. I'm afraid the subject of "future research" must, by definition, be rife with theoretical physics. It is the nature of the beast. I hope this does not put you off. I have too much respect for your opinions to want be to seen by you in a negative light.

MajorDiarr:

No. Dilithium, as introduced in the Original Series, is a crystal. This is undeniable: in the episode "Elaan of Troyius", Elaan is wearing jewelry made from "unrefined dilithium"; and the jewelry was rigged to run the warp core in the show. What, exactly, the crystals do for the M/AM reaction is not said in cannon to my knowledge. I do not trust the TNG Tech Manual's explanation, but that it mitigates the matter/antimatter reaction seems certain.

When the shows refer to a "dilithium matrix", I always pictured they were referring to the matrix of the crystal... That is the definition of a crystal, after all: a material organized in a regular pattern. This pattern is often called a "matrix". I have assumptions as to why, but I do not *know*, so I will not say. As to "regenerating" the matrix, that means to me recreating the staunch and rigid patterns one would normally find in the crystal: if a few bonds between atoms within the crystal break, leaving a fissure in the pattern, I would suspect the crystal would not be as efficient at or capable of mitigating the M/AM reaction. This is my guess... However, remember that in ST4-The Voyage Home Scotty was complaining about "these Klingon crystals" and how it was finally resolved to "regenerate" them. For me, this clinches the case... You may disagree.

As to your quote from Voy-Equinox1, concerning a few isograms of dilithium, it seems to me that a certain volume of dilithium could only withstand a certain throughput of M/AM reactant before melting or breaking down. So a crystal weighing only a few isograms couldn't even allow enough reactant to go through it to power a sonic shower... Of course, this may have been something of an exaggeration on Harry's part.

Everything vibrates. Everything has frequencies. You and I do, for example. We are made up of quanta and quanta giggle. These giggles, when summed together, make our base frequency. But the frequencies of every single quanta within us can, theoretically, be examined. Doing so for something as complex as you and I is way out of reach of even 23rd century technology, as seen in Trek. But doing so for something as simple as a crystal, even a dilithium crystal, should be well within their abilities. The examination of these frequencies would give an excellent picture of the crystal and its health. Any crack, fissure or disjoint within the crystal structure would be obvious to such an analysis. In fact, it would be *the* perfect tool for the job!

Trilithium is yet another molecule, made up of the same kind of atoms as dilithium. (Remember that a molecule is anything consisting of a single batch of connected molecules. In this sense, a diamond, if truly perfect and without flaw of any kind, would be a molecule, a macro-molecule, to be exact. In the same way, a dilithium crystal would also, IMHO, be a macro molecule.) Trilithium is highly unstable and powerfully explosive. But this simply means the bond angles of the atoms are under great strain, much like those of cubane or C4 or any of the other high-explosives we have today.

The comparisons made by downsizeit between a warp core and a car engine, though not perfectly accurate (IMHO), are quite clever and I tend to agree with them. Thinking of dilithium as the warp core'scarburetor and going from there -- as apposed to a new kind of energy producing field -- very much jibes with my personal view of how it's likely to work.

I must disagree with downsizeit, however: trilithium is *not* made of "other metals". It is my understanding that trilithium is a different form of dilithium, much as ozone is a different form of mono-atomic oxygen (O3 rather than O2). It is when you combine trilithium with other metals in just the right way that you get the bomb from Generations that can stop all fusion at the core of a star. This is similar to saying that when you combine C4 with other metals (such as plutonium) in just the right way you get an atomic bomb: the C4 *is not* an atomic bomb, but it's hard to make an atomic bomb without an high explosive like C4... This may seem like splitting hairs, but it is important to the discussion at hand.

Titanium is an element with 22 protons and (with a 73.8% probability on Earth) 26 neutrons. Things "made of titanium" are usually made of an *alloy* that is mostly titanium but also includes aluminum and... um... I forgot the third common component... (Damn!) The point is, the word "titanium" does not refer to an alloy of "various metals" but the element: atom number 22 on the periodic table. (I'm sorry. Was that pedantic?)

Oh, KRUM! I spent all this time on Dilithium and never got to what I wanted to talk about in the first place... Oh well. Next time.

Downsizeit, I think Voyger has the most technicle exposition of any of the shows regarding ship systems.

Compairing an internal combustion engine to a warp core doesn't work. To your first example, internal combustion engines are heat engines, therefore it is better for them to be hot when when working also the Voyager reference isn't in regard to cold starting or restarting the warp core but specificaly to the "dilithium matrix". A gradual build up in regard to actualy starting the warp core makes sense in that it should take greater power to contain the greater reactions as power production is ramped up. As power production increases, it can use that power to maintain its containment apparatus.

Again, not a good comparison. By your example, what is being said is really along the lines of, "The car has an air powered engine." It's not strictly correct, in this case the air and dilithium are catalysts, while the gasoline and M/AM are the reactants. However, in the case of the warp core, it is the dilithium that is producing the greater energy, where as the gasoline has the greater energy in the combustion engine.

You haven't said anything contridictory to the quote and conclusion. The dilithium and power generation are stated directly in relation to each other and stated what it could power. There was no mention of the Equinox's smaller warp core powering Voyager.

The explosives quote shows dilithium, rather an isotope of it, being used for an explosive, as in an energy source.

Dilithium crystal isn't an energy field, I never implied it was, it has an energy field that can be disrupted, maintaned, reenforced. Lasers amplification if that works does it through refraction and lensing if I'm not mistaken. Dilithium is a meterial that is somehow transparent to matter, not just EM radiation, it's a completely different thing.

*****************************************************************

The regeneration of the cyrstal may most likely have to do with the type of regeneration done in The Voyager Home, in fact it is quite likely, except that later on it has been refered to by a different term when Scotty was on the Enteprise-D. However, if it were just a normal physical latice of molecules or dilithium atoms then, to my knowledge, a type of radiation should not be able to bolster the crystal's matrix and strange energy fields shouldn't cause the matrix to collapse. This goes with the oddity of the meterial supposedly bieng transparent to matter and non-reactive with anti-matter in some degree.

Actualy, we saw pretty much the same thing when Riker and Picard were conducting battle exercises. There were some dilithium shards left in the ship Riker was to use. In this case the limit is the crystal and not the anti-matter because once Wesley got the anti-matter from his own experiment, Riker or Geordi said that the dilithium would then be just enough for a quick warp jump, rather than the anti-matter being enough. Or it was stated earlier and Wesley's anti-matter made it possible.

Did you forget the Heisenberg Compensator? They can track both position and momentum of a particle, really trillions of particles, without scewing the result of either measurement. They should be able to find the indivigual frequencies of any mass of particles.

Trilithium being only chemicaly different doesn't go into why it is used as an explosive when anti-matter should, pound for pound, be the most potent explosive and has been shown to be so easly contained that a child, Wesley, was allowed to have his own supply of anti-matter for a personal experiment. The same experiment he used to power Riker's ship, if you wanted to know. It also doesn't go into how Federation ships are able to produce more energy than their own mass in energy.

MajorDiarr:

Well. I'm afraid we're at an impass. I am closed minded on the idea of "dilithium matrix" being an energy field. And you're mind is closed to it being the very crystaline structure of dilithium.

We have both made up our minds on the subject and neither of us will change the other's opinion. Because of my opinion of where the energy is coming from, I like antimatter fusion. And for yours, you do not. I'm not going to get into a debate you've obviously had repeatedly and are bored of.

Damn! And it was just getting interesting!

Oh well, we'll have to think of something else to discuss...anyone fancy discussing Artificial Quantum Singularities again?

I'm sure they'll be a big discussion on the asteroids Romulas and Remus (see General Chat)

ZDarby, I'm not closed minded on the subject at all. If you can show me a crystalline structure, or describe a possible one, that comes close to being transparent to matter, doesn't react with anti-matter, can survive M/AM annihilation, and can be disordered by strange other dimension energy, can collect energy and release it in destructive amounts, and amplify energetic reactions, then I'll agree with it being in reference to a physical matrix.

I would just like to point out, MajorDiarr, your logic for accepting ZDarby's argument is completely flawed. Are you saying you won't accept that a phaser is a phaser unless he shows you something in real life that resembles a phaser? Look at all the series and all the movies and all the effects that phasers have been given. I have yet to see anything in science that can vaporize every molecule in a person's body without producing any heat.

The whole reason why the creator's of Trek created Dilithium, is because there wasn't a crystal that could act like dilithium acts. So what did they do? They made it up, as if to say, there "might" be dilithium out there and it would react just the way we said it would.

Also, we would need to start a whole different discussion on the materials that ships are made out of that they can withstand explosions in the orders of millions of megatons. There isn't any metal I know about that can do that.

Just saying, that you are close minded because your requirements not to be are impossible to meet. Hence, I'll admit, I'm close minded as well as to what I think dilithium is and does. Nothing anyone says will change my mind because I think I have sufficient evidence and worked my own logic to think I'm right. But that's ok, because you have obviously done the same and there is nothing wrong with that.

Don't forget, Dilithium was originally called Lithium in the pilot episode of TOS.

They changed the name when they realised Lithium doesn't have the properties they needed.

I'll accept a theory based on in universe information as well, in fact it is far preferable to real life information in that in universe information trumps real life information. The theory just needs to cover all of, or very close to all of, the properties of dilithium I pointed out. Phasers are a good example, they can stun, kill, heat, vaporise, puncture without cauterising, explode, and "vaporise". I put vaporise twice because of the disapearing, non-explosive vaporisation it can pull off in addition to heat based vaporisation. Also the order I put the stuff is important because I belive they are related in that order, starting from most conventional and weakest, to least conventional and strongest. Using a combination of in universe information and real life information we can come up with a basic theory.

The first two are easy, plasma can conduct electrisity, the stun effect can be electrical, as can the kill effect considering that it causes large burns without peircing or explosive damage to the target. Heating can be a property of emited plasma. Except I have already run into a problem, Phasers didn't become plasma weapons untill about the third season of Star Trek: The Next Generation and that was for ship board systems, not small arms. Plus, a plasma hot enough to heat a rock untill it glows read would be enough to char the person firing such a weapon. Nadions have been referenced in regard to phasers, perhaps these are the basis of all of the effects, we don't know anything about them and the effects are pretty darn weird. It's not unreasonable to apply these effects to nadions, etc. Find what is reasonable, eliminate whatever is not consistent.

That's the type of thing I'm asking for, a theory that covers all of the show's information and fills in the gaps with real life information where needed.

Another example is the periodic table. Anything past Americium, I might be off by a couple elements, is lab created and completely unstable. The chart also only goes up to about 118 elements, again I might be a little off. But in Star Trek, their periodic table has at least 160 naturaly accuring elements, I think it goes up to 245 by TNG. For that to be the case, there needs to be super heavy elements that are stable past the currently known artificial unstable elements, otherwise no one would be able to discover those elements as naturaly occuring.

I am shirking my responsibilities to many people (not to mention my own health) to be here, so I'll (try to) make this short.

I see no evidence the amount of energy used by Ent-D is more than the entire mass of the ship. If you refer to "12.75 billion gigawatts per..." please remember that this means 12.75*10^18 watts in American. The Brittish system is somewhat different, as I understand. 12.75E18 watts converts to 140 kg/sec of power. And if Data meant to say "gigawatts per second", then we have something of a problem as this is 1000 kg/sec over an hour! If you take into account inefficiency, we're talking way too much mass being turned into power over an hour, a day, a month. But, if he was going to say "per hour" then, though still a problem, it is no longer impossible: 150kg 'burned' per hour (at 93% efficient), 3.6 tonne per day, 108 tonne per month... At constant power output of 12.75E18 watts per hour, converting matter at 93% efficiency.

Is there another quote that is greatly beyond this power usage?

Your conditions:

1) Transparent to matter / Doesn't react to antimatter. Well, no. That is not a nessicarily condition. It has to *channel* antimatter plasma onto matter plasma without touching it; and it has channel it more efficiently than an electomagnetic field could. (Remember, we're concentrating the M/AM plasma onto the dilithium with magnetic fields in the first place.) Let us pretend, for a moment, that dilithium had the property that it strongly repulsed magnetic field lines so that the field lines impinging upon it tended to flow between the molecules of the crystal matrix. If the spaces between the the molecules in this matrix were only a few nanometers, forcing the field lines into this space, the plasma would be constrained there too. This would force the two plasmas to collide with eachother and not the dilithium, keeping the crystal safe... But is there an example of a material with such a property?

Superconductors. A superconductor in the shape of a tube would concentrate field lines trespassing within the tube in such a way as to keep them from traveling within the superconductinve material. If you had a superconductinve substrate holes drilled into it of nanometer size and this object were bathed within a large magnetic field, the field lines would be concentrated within and follow through the pathways created by the holes. Material trapped within the magnetic field would not (usually) touch the surface of the superconductive substrate.

Dilithium a super temperature superconductor? Well... Um... Maybe... Really, I was just using an example of how it's possible that the crystal didn't have to tolerate antimatter... Maybe dilithium has the property of having strong magnetic fields of its own within its crystaline matrix while exposed to strong magnetic fields. This property exists in real physics (and is used in some hard disks) and would also tend to keep a plasma from touching the crystal itself... If it's intrinsic magnetic field were powerful enough, that is...

It should be pointed out that I'm talking about a field, as MajorDiarr is, but not one that *creates* energy; nor one that needs to be invented.

Notice, in both cases, the thing I describe lets matter and antimatter into it? Transparent at certain angles, I would say.

(Blast it all! This is already getting long!!!)

2) Can survive M/AM reaction. Not difficult. The resultant of a M/AM anniliation is (mostly) gamma rays. The gamma rays then turn into a most fascinating zoo of strange particals. (This, as you know, is how we study quarks and the like. So, in effect, we can already do this.) Since gamma rays travel very quickly and don't tend to react with much -- most everything is transparent to gamma rays -- the dilithium is not likely to absorb much of the resultant power created by the M/AM reaction: that power will be carried away by gamma rays before it gets turned into things that would react with the crystal. The heat coming from the plasma, though... That would be a problem...

Notice that in this scenario dilithium needs to be transparent to photons, not exiting matter?

In this scenario, it would be nice if the dilithium crystal were refractive to gamma rays so that a photon emited by a reaction within the crystal tended to be directed in a certain direction: toward the exhaust of the core! This might be too much to ask for, though.

3) Distorted by "strange energies". Explainable. *If* dilithium were, indeed, superconductive in the way described above, anything powerfull enough to disrupt the electron cooper pairs within the crystal would disrupt its superconductivity and, therefor, it's ability to confine the field lines. As an engineer in this scenario, to avoid a core breach you would constantly monitor the crystals superconductiveness. When it's ability reached a certain limit, the core would automatically be shut down.

4) Collect, store and release distructively energy. A superconductor that stops being superconductive can do so explosively. When all those field lines snap back into place; when billions of Cooper pairs dissassociate instantly loads of energy is released very rapidly. It can take a several ton superconductor and push it through a concrete wall... Not quite the kind of explosive power we're talking about, but this is only the 20th century.

Any property of dilithium that manipulated field lines would also do this. The stronger the field lines, the bigger the bang.

5) Amplify reactions. Crystals do this all the time under the right circumstances...

I'm sorry. I ran out of time thirty minutes ago.

I (unintentionally) shut this topic down and I'd like to start it back up again. Now that Supremecy is getting so grown up and using Dafedz exellent and somewhat flawed (imho) tech tree, I would like to discuss what can be done to improve it.

As much as I enjoy physics talk, I'm going to try not to get drug into a deep discussion of treknology like last time... (wish me luck.)

I'd like to restate some things put down earlier in this thread:

1) for those who dont know where to find the tech tree being discussed, begin here:
http://www.trekmania.net/temp_files/botf2_home.htm

2) An automated farm isn't likely to bleeding-edge know-how in the fields of propulsion, weapons or energy. Conversly, you don't need to know xenobiology to make a fusion reactor, a photon torpedo or a space-ship hull. Thus, there seems to be little reason for a grade 4 fabrication plant to require tech-level 4 research in biology, weapons or propulsion... Though an arguement can be made for a need for research in energy and computers.

The point being that some discussion should be made about what is necissary for each facility. For example, a type 4 fab unit may not need tech 4 in computers or energy -- tech 3 may work, the first of the matter replicators *will* need techs of 6 in power, computers, construction and possibly even propulsion, as propulsion 6 is "field manipulation".

This part of the game-play should be given more attention.

("the downforce requirements on a warp capable tractor" indeed!)

3) An idea was proposed about sharing between technology between civilizations. I don't know if this was discussed more completely elsewhere but it certainly wasn't given a chance in this thread.

Perhaps it's a bad idea to pick this topic back up, the deplomicy part of supremecy so close to actually being dealt with, and all. Still, if not now, then when?

4) There was dissagreement about how much effort should go into makeing new types of "technological advances". Some, myself includd, thought the descriptions for technology (like ultraconductors) in the original BotF was dumb and should be replaced. Others simply stated (correctly) that the explanation makes little difference in the actual game play.

I believe this discussion should be picked back up and resolved.

But, then, perhaps this part of the topic should be "let sleeping dragons sleep". It was *this* part that stopped the discussion, after all.

~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~

So, I'd like to address item 2 emmediately.

Here's how I propose things change:
facility - bio, comp, const, enegy, prop, weap

Grade 1 Fab - 0,1,1,1,0,0
Grade 2 Fab - 1,2,2,2,1,0
Grade 3 Fab - 1,2,3,2,1,1
Grade 4 Fab - 2,3,4,3,3,2
Heavy Fab --- 2,4,5,4,3,2
Type A Repli - 6,6,6,6,6,6
Type B Repli - 6,7,7,7,6,6
Type C Repli - 6,8,8,7,7,6
Type D Repli - 6,8,9,8,7,7
Type E Repli - 7,9,10,9,8,7
Type F Repli - 8,10,11,10,9,8
Type G Repli - 10,12,12,12,10,9

Discussion: It seems to me a "fabrication plant" needs to have enough understanding of biology not to poison it's occupants, so, they hall have a minimal requirement. A fab plant would integrate good computers and need a certain power supply to be able to work. Thus, the minimal definate requrements in those fields.

But the jump from 'fab plant' to 'mass replicator' is a complete revolution and would need understanding in *all* the fields. This includes Bio, as, again, you don't want to kill your workers. So understanding what effects the replicator would have on biology would be very important... Even if you don't agree with that, a newly invented mass replicator would need the best computers, an huge powersupply and would borrow understandings from the firelds of propulsion and weapons too. This is why I've required so much for 'type A replicators'.

~~~

Type 1 Farm --- 1,1,1,1,0,0
Type 2 Farm --- 2,2,2,1,0,0
Type 3 Farm --- 3,2,2,2,1,1
Type 4 Farm --- 4,3,3,3,2,2
Type 5 Farm --- 5,4,4,4,3,2
Type 6 Farm --- 6,5,4,4,3,2
Type 7 Farm --- 7,7,6,6,6,6
Type 8 Farm --- 8,7,7,7,6,6
Type 9 Farm --- 9,8,8,8,7,7
Type 10 Farm - 10,9,9,8,8,8
Type 11 Farm - 11,10,10,9,9,9
Type 12 Farm - 12,11,11,11,11

Discussion: You might not believe this, but it takes a lot more than just understanding how to plant and water a potato to feed a nation or a federation. The more you understand the world, the better chance you have of making many plants/animals grow up and become food. And computers would be a big part of that process, as would energy... And though your homes may look ramshackle, there has to be a good understanding of architecture, etc for a farm to *really* prosper.

So, I've made the requirements for a farm tighter than you may expect in some places... Honestly, I don't think I can justify it being as tight as it is. It's a gut thing.

~~~

Type 1 Reactor -- 1,1,1,1,1,1
Type 2 Reactor -- 1,2,2,2,1,2
Type 3 Reactor -- 2,3,3,3,1,2
Type 4 Reactor -- 2,4,4,4,3,3
Type 5 Reactor -- 3,4,5,4,4,4
Type 6 Reactor -- 3,5,6,5,4,4
Type 7 Reactor -- 4,6,7,6,4,5
Type 8 Reactor -- 4,7,8,7,5,6
Type 9 Reactor -- 6, 8,9,8,6,8
Type 10 Reactor - 6, 9,10,9,8,9
Type 11 Reactor - 8,10,11,10,9,10
Type 12 Reactor - 9,11,12,11,11,11

Discussion: You need to be model the reaction within the chamber in order to contol it, so a reactor needs a good computer. You need to be able to contain the reaction, so you need good fabrication. Finally, weapons are about short-burst energy production, so continuous energy production will always be closely tied to weapons research. This is my logic.

~~~

All information gathering needs the best in order to do well. Thus, universities and intel nets should need tech at the same level.

Mind outlining exactly which columns line up with which research focus? I have a particular problem wtih "Type F Repli - 8,10,11,10,9,8". This is, essentially, the type 11 replicator... yet, if my assumptions are correct... it only requires Level 10 Fabrication and Level 11 Energy.

Ooh I'm just imagining what a Warp capable tractor would be like right at this very moment...and I also have a sudden urge to scream "BIG RED TRACTOR!" after reading it, but there is probably only one other person on these forums who would understand why and that is Arthur_Wonderbird.

Anyways, welcome back to the forums ZDarby! I was really missing these big discussions that we used to have. It's only threads like this where we really get to the nitty-gritty of what is needed in the game(s) - and we have a lot of fun in the process...well that or we can at least scare off the noobs.

...

I completely agree with your ideas about the necessities of technology - it would make sense that the requiered techs for objects would meet "expected" fieldsinstead of all of them. In Dafdz's defense though, this is BOTF2 - and BOTF did have all techs for all systems. Of course this is BOTF2 and so there is the chance for improvements.

...

On the sharing of technology aspect, this is actually a REALLY good time to bring it up - to my knowledge, Mike is either just about to start implementing a better diplomacy system, or already has. Discussing this system before the diplomacy stystem is complete would mean massive overhauls and changes wouldn't be needed later.

This particular idea may need its own thread though. I'm sure it would likely branch out with a multitude of other ideas andresult in an intense discussion. As you said, this may then not be the place for this particular discussion.

...

On the matter of the tech descriptions - if you don't like them, write you own! The current versions of the tech fields are edited versions of the originals, (Except for the new tech levels 11 and 12) so if people want them changed this can easily be done. The database is a little outdated as it is now, so I am sure that Dafedz would LOVE suggestions on improvements so he can get cracking on updating it.

...

Azhdeen, Darby DID put the column names in his post.



Hopefully you can now add some of your own comments to get this thread kick-started and produce some meaningful ideas for the games.

Because we're using a fairly small tech matrix and not a large tech tree, I don't like the idea of outright trading of technologies. However, I would not be opposed to a type of joint research treaty that would affect the total number of RPs generated for the empires involved.

@ Azhdeen:
The format for the factories is as follows:

Facility - biological (tech level), computer, construction, energy, propulsion, weapons

In the case of, "Type F Replicator - 8,10,11,10,9,8" you will notice that the 11 is the third number and is therefore in the construction place.

I separated the numbers with cammas instead of putting them in columns because I have had a hard time in the past making columns work in this forum -- the forum tends to get rid of extra spaces and reformat everything written in plain text. There are ways around it, but (with respect) I didn't want to bother...I appreciated that you mentioned what apreared to be a type-O in my numbers. Please continue.

And I would appreciate you opinion even more.

@ MOE:
Thank you for the welcome. It's good to be back. I've lurked a little. Truth is (and I wont say more than this) I've been nursing a broken heart and nothing seemed apealing. But now that I've seen the new release and how much work needs to be done, I'm excited again. THANK YOU MSTROBEL!!

It wasn't just the noobs I tended to scare off. At one point in this thread even jigalypuff asked me to stop. He wasn't heard from again here. I tend to shut down threads in that way...Which is why I'd like to keep the theoreticals down to a minimum this time around. (Rest assured, though, I've not changed: I'm still a nerdy, theory buff. :) )

As for blaming Dafedz, hardly! I have little but praise for him for the very fact that he produced something that can be nit-picked at. If it weren't worthy of priase, I'd not bother with trying to modify it... Does that sound stuck up? "If it weren't good I wouldn't care enough to kibits"? HAH! It does, doesn't it? Still, thats the way I think.... And that goes for your work too, mstrobel. Indeed, the work of this entire forum. Keep it up!

@ mstrobel:
Yes. That makes sense to me: another type of treaty to trade research. Obviously, this would be blocked if two societies were at war. But what if there was just animosity? Would you need to be freinds first? Allies? Allies in a war? ...Certainly the latter! I doubt it would be automatic if allied in war... indeed, you'd want to be very careful what information you traded in all circumstances... Would putting percentages on RP trade for each subject be too hard to implement?

Perhaps another thread... AHAH! "Diplomacy options"!

Whoops, I missed that, ha.

I may have an issue with requiring two or more current technologies in order to build a normal building. For example, if you require computers 12 and construction 12 in order to build Type 12 Replicators, I'd probably have a problem with the computers requirement, mainly because it doesn't really make much sense to me. I think the only technology that needs to be at the same level as the Type Level you are trying to build is the core technology; all of the supporting technology can be 1-5 levels lower because it's, well, just supporting technology. Plus, this allows the player to have a little bit more flexibility to focus on certain areas of research. For example, I usually concentrate on construction so I can improve my system output. But in terms of the Type 12 replicator, I would also have to concentrate on computers equally with construction. I definitely like how the player is forced to be "well-rounded" in terms of research, but I still would like to see the player be able to choose a specific research path. I don't want people too well-rounded, heh.

I could *definitely* see requiring computers and construction for a special building, however. Like, for example...the Utopia Planitia Shipyards. I could easily see a requirement of, say, Construction 6, Computers 6, Energy 5, Biology 3, Weapons 4, and Propulsion 5 (I'm pulling numbers out of my ass to simply outline what I'm saying.) Clearly, a specific structure like this would require the best computer and construction techniques available. Energy and propulsion are pretty important, which is why they're only one level lower. Weapons are somewhat important in terms of starship design, but they don't really improve the construction process much. And biology probably has the least effect on starship construction, but does still play a role, thus, the lower requirement. Feel free to adjust the tech levels to whatever as I simply wanted to explain what I was saying.

Would it make more sense to, instead of requiring technology levels for special structures to instead require certain levels of "normal" buildings to be constructed? For example... wouldn't it be somewhat silly if I had Construction 6 researched, but still only had Type 2 Replicators and attempted to build Utopia Planetia? Or built a Subatomic Simulator with only Type 1 plasma generators? I mean... I guess it doesn't matter.... The simulators require X number of energy and if you can produce it with only Type 1's, more power to you (same for Utopia Planetia and the Type 2 replicators). But it's just a thought.

I tend to kill threads when I post too. So if I have plenty of time to respond, this could become a looooong discussion (longer than it already is) :p