ok enough is enough, torture beatings and killings? were the hell did you get this from? what a pile of crap. and pow`s are not entitled to lawyers btw.
and why the hell should i sit by with my thumb up my arse while some tosser steals all i have worked hard for? someone comes into my place to try robbing me will leave via the back door in a mess, and dumped in the ally.

As an add in to my earlier rant.

how well does bush run the usa?
Badly....except where it applies to his personal intrests.
Within hours of florida being hit by the huricane, florida was send millions in relief efforts and funds, however it took 8 days (yes, 8 full days) for the 3 other states that where hit to finaly start to recieve any help at all.
Why?...simple, florida is run by his brother, who happened to help with the instalation of the new election booths. Those booths of course are the ones that "lost" 200,000 of the votes that helped bush be elected for his 2nd term.

Scratch my back brother and ill scratch yours?

Suprizingly, the media isint editing out alot of the stuff going on in new orleans. I would have expected bush to pull a bit of political muscle by now. Be interesting to see what he does do in the next few weeks.

Anyone notice that his popularity rating has dropped from about 60% when he was elected down to nearly half that, at 31%?

Tielee

Re: tielee: My goodness. Who are you and what have you done with your brain? Let's see ... today is the 8th day since the hurricane and the Federal presence has been in force for days. The hurricane hit Florida several days before New Orleans was hit. I think you need to spend less time here and more time actually watching the news. You really need to get over your phobia of the federal government.

And before you start blasting the US government OR the state and local governments, let me repost something I wrote on the first page of this thread:



Could the local, state, and federal governments have responded quicker, more decisively, and made better initial decisions? Of course, but remember this is the first time they have ever dealt with something of this magnitude. It was of a magnitude no one expected. It's easy to point out the mistakes made and ignore the good decisions made.

It's easy to blame the President, the head of FEMA, LA governor, and the New Orleans mayor, but ... I don't think anyone could have done much better considering all that happened. Rather than pointing fingers we need to be supporting these leaders. There will be time later to learn from the mistakes and be better prepared if this happens again.

Re: Everyone. I've really enjoyed this thread. I never expected to change anyone's mind and I haven't taken any comments personally.

This has been fun but I've had my full of this thread. I've enjoyed reading the views and opinions of those overseas. It has been enlightening. I enjoy a good, sensible debate but this thread seems to have degraded to the nonsensical rantings of tielee which isn't worth the time.

So I announce my retirement ... from this thread. If anyone has any questions or comments for me on this topic feel free to PM me. Now it's time for less debating of politics and more debating the number of torpedo launchers on the Akira.

In what ways is my information not correct other than in precision? I have been completely truthful in my statements and just because it conflicts with common news stories doesn't make any of it incorrect. Sounding and looking is not honesty and fact.

I didn't say the US is ignoring the concerns and wants of other countrys, I said we don't have to, it's completely different and neither does it mean the US always ignores other countries, or even does it most of the time.


Happily yes I can. Amazingly 30 or 60 countries have actualy offered aid, even some really unexpected ones like Cuba offered, I think, 1,000 medical personel.


Thank you and you are absolutlye right about the comparison between the hurricane and 9/11, although I haven't heard it before. Anyway, I live only about half a mile from the former World Trade center and used to be able to see it from my loft. It was a terrible event, but as you said, the physical damage was only over a few blocks in diameter. The worst of it was that power was out for about two days, local TV reception was dead because the main transmitter was on one of the World Trade center towers but cable worked, train service was non-existent below 32nd street but for some reason it did exist going up town (I actualy had to walk from 32nd back to my home one day and there were loads of check points going up and down town), and that's pretty much it other than the cloud of noxious meterials which wasn't really so bad where I was. Not to mention the dead and missing but that was fast, even though it was terrible.

I'll read another page of this thread later, maybe.

glad i started this thread, its been a learning experience!

but did bush get in democratically or did he do it legally or both?

just wondering!

He went in democratically one time (the 2nd election) and legally two times (both elections).

how could so many americns think he was good?? was it just that kerry was **** or just alot of people are abit silly....(silly is the kindest word i have)

The must understand the way things work here in America. Not everybody, but ALMOST everybody is either strong left(democrat) or strong right(republican) and both sides hate each other and are terrified of the other. The reason Bush won was because the right outnumbered the left and the right(republicans) are deathly afraid of the democratic party.

(I can say that because I was raised a republican).

I believe that you are dramatically oversimplifying the political divisions. As a Registered Voter who isn't registered with any party (My state has an Open Primary, where you can vote in one or the other, just not both), I voted for President Bush. Twice actually. Here's why, and it goes back to that American Dream someone mentioned early. My parents are not wealthy. In fact until a couple of years ago, we would have been lower, lower middle class.



Bush, as a candidate, offered several things. His cabinet is filled with highly qualified people of wide backgrounds, who I thought very capable of actually running the country. Bush makes the decisions, but they actually execute those decisions. While many think that his Education initiatives are off the mark, as a teacher, I like them. They force districts to really look at the way they educate and the teachers they have. Before becoming a teacher, i manged two restaurants and worked in a mass retailer. IF you cannot succeed in sales, you didn't make it long. The same needs to go for teaching. Among other things he offered was that he WASN"T John Kerry.

Kerry was ****. His policies were vague, and mostly fell under "Well, we will see when I get into office." I didn't see Kerry as being in touch with America. When Bush rides around cutting lumber in Texas, I can see him doing that if he quit politics right now. If John Kerry quit politics right now, i can't see him duck hunting, or eating a philly cheesesteak sandwich. I would have voted for Joseph Lieberman had he run. In 96, had I been able to Vote, i would have voted for Clinton. In 92, i would have voted for Ross Perot. I like Carter and Kennedy, and would have voted for Lyndon Johnson.

I am a moderate libertarian, and think that some of Bush's decisions are not the greatest. I was all in favor of reorganizing the government and creating Homeland Security (I never understood how the Border Guard, Customs, and the Coast Guard were not under the same jurisdiction) I am all for the invasion of Iraq (We should have finished the job in 91, and this wouldn't have been necessary.) I agree with him on North Korea. Let China deal with the nuclear power on its back door step. (Sphere of Influence issues and if they want to be a super power, start acting like it. Plus, North Korea is just trying to bribe us for more money, because they spend everything on their military, and not on food or infrastructure) I think the Social Security program needs massive reforms, just like Clinton did to Welfare.

Somethings I think he has failed at: The spending in the federal budget is outrageous. Over the top even. I worry that he isn't pushing enough for domestic energy exploration, though alternative fuels and higher efficiencies are on their way (Friend of mine works for the Department of Transportation) . I think the trade deficit is too high, and we should have dealt better with Venezuela, even if Hugo Chavez is a nutter. The Prescription Drug plan is just a waste of money, We should be busting Monopolys like the early 20th century Republican powerhouses, Roosevelt and Taft. (I am looking at you AOL Time Warner, Viacom, General Electric among others)

In a mostly two-party system, You choose the best that you are presented with. In this case, it was President Bush. Next time, who knows? But I do it not because I am afraid of the other side, but because I feel that one is truly better for the job than the other.

I don't vote for a guy because I believe he will look better to the rest of the world. He has one responsibilty: To insure the peace and security of the AMERICAN people. Anything else is a luxury.

Anyone watched Bowling for Columbine?

gun crime is rampant in the uk, its also very easy to get guns and drugs, its so bad that thiers at least 1 person killed in nottingham through guns every week, thier even areas that the police wont even go to in nottingham

Well, it's not like that where I live.

You're *closer* to the US than my country, so it's normal the US *culture* has more impact on you.

One can get guns here too, if you have a license, but the mentality is different - people just don't buy guns to have them at home.

Also I think Moore discovered part of the problem. We had a discosion on that in psychology class a couple years ago, and Moore made me remember it.

In the US what is the most desired thing (for most people) ? Love? Nope, money. Not the paper, but to be rich and mainly succesful. And succes is measured by the amount of money. It's all connected. So, people are born in a poor neighbourhood and learn from the media etc. it is good to be succesful and it's the goal in life. Some work two jobs and barely pay their bills. How will such a person EVER be succesful. He couldn't educate himself, because in the US good schools have to be payed, not to mention the other costs associated with education... All his life that person will rot in that neighborhood... But he doesn't want that, and so if he can't succed by legal means, he'll use illegal ones...

Have you seen the poor neighbourhood in canada in Moore's documantary? And then compare that to the poor neighbourhood in that town where the 8-year old killed an 8-year old girl.

People in the US have to PAY for their health care. We get health care for free, that is for the basic stuff (dentist, doctor etc.). I know most here adore the capitalistic way, because it's make's you free (garbish) and one can earn a lot if you're talented and inventive (more garbish). Some people never even get a chance to live a normal life. And noone cares. The capitalistic way is a selfish one. If it weren't, things would be different in the US. And all this progress is coming here too... thank you for telling us what is right and wrong, because you surely can discern the two. The US is a paradise, where angels kill each other occasionally.

There was something else I wanted to say. Right, I remember. The other day I saw a report on the news about the recent tragedy. A women interviewed was afraid to go back to the stadion where survivals were gathered. She said it was horrible, that even kids were raped there and the violance... She didn't wan't to go back there. That was before the troops arrived. A country that produces people who even in such tragic moments go and rape already frightened children can't be normal. There must be something wrong, terrably wrong.

I know someone will knock my post with a hammer now, because they cannot acccept that the US is not perfect and the best in all views - it would clash with the common fairytale. Every patriot must praise his country to the skies. And another thing, this isn't a hate-rant, I don't hate Americans, but I do hate some of the thigs their country does.

And raiden_rse - if it's happening in the UK to, the more reason to worry. Even if it would happen all around the world, that wouldn't make it ok.

Quote: I don't vote for a guy because I believe he will look better to the rest of the world. He has one responsibilty: To insure the peace and security of the AMERICAN people.

I wouldn't expect such narrow-mindness from someone who comes from a country that propagates globalization. It's not his looks that bother others, but his actions.

I'll stop now.

Is it possible that EVERYone 'hates' America because they see a possibility for a truly great state. In that it flatters to deceive, rather than it is as BAD as its always made out to be. I mean, its all well and good people buring U.S flags all around the world but they should understand that perhaps they should vent their anger towards their own incompetent states.

If the states of the world were not that incometent/unfiar/inhumane as they are, or even as 'intelligent' as the U.S at looking after their OWN citizens then perhaps there would not be a need to hate the U.S?

I mean why is it right for people to keep going on about america when there are a 100 countries doing worse stuff, all we can accuse the U.S of being is being successful. And that it fustrating to a great country be as FLAWED as any other, and not to see it fulfill its potential in taking a leading role, surely we cannot accuse it of too much more??

I've held my tongue on this thread along time... I don't like to get involved in political debates... but i have a few things to say...

1. America is acting like a police force of the world because the world expects it to.. If the world doesn't want the US to act as the police force, I'd be happy to have our troops come home and away from danger.

2. Afghanistan and Iraq... Two seperate things, tied together by a desperate president. The US had every right in the world to invade, yes I said invade Afghanistan. The people who organized the planes in NY were being supported by the government there, which was supported by the alqada(spelling I know). However, it should have stopped there. Iraq really didn't pose a threat to the US, other than being a nuisance. I believe that was a mistake.

3. The US at first balked at foreign aid, which I think was wrong, but after seeing the total effect in the region, they gladly opened up and accepted many offers for foreign aid. It was in the form of oil, medical supplies(mexico sent a medical ship, and 45(ish) vehicles loaded with supplies.

I am surprised that Bush hasn't tried to pull rank and shut the news networks out, becuase he knows his administration, and FEMA waited entirely to long to send aid to the region. (should have been on the way as soon as the hurricane was announced and evacuations began of New Orleans, but wasn't sent until after the storm was past the area) I think the most blame on that one lies directly on the shoulders of FEMA, more specifically the person running it.

Let me say I'm not a supporter of Bush, and I hope the next president is there for more than personal gain.

The world both hates us and loves us at the same time. But they always expect us to come to the rescue. I for one, wouldn't mind one bit if the US stopped getting into world affairs and let them be solved by other countries, but it's not going to happen because other nations will call for help.

I've got just 2 things to say to this: America may be Paradise for people who have been either lucky and were born in a rich family or for people that happen to be smart or those who are corrupt.
Second argument: "Capitalism will destroy itself - Karl Marx"

..It's only a matter of time, but I got the feeling it's getting closer.

and if they didnt they would shoot themselves in the foot, America is not "policing" the world out of some generous instinct as a superpower, they are making massive gains from the position and have been doing so since the end of the WW2.

1.America set up the U.N, its based in New York, they are the principal funders, smaller countries (such as kuwait) get the kind of iron cast garantee of their national sovereignty from the U.N security council members (the security council has the vast majority of planetary military strength and all arms production). What the U.S gets for their investment is a means to reign in the other security council members (russia and china) and create co-operation and consensus between the U.S and smaller nations (something every good star trek fan knows as the beginnings of joining the federation)

2. America set up Nato as a means of blocking soviet expansion any further west and stabilising the region . The Marshall plan put billions into rebuilding western europe, something which effectivly saved the respective governments in each country. None of this was done out of good will. Western europe is filled with potentially powerful countries, not allowing to turn red and financing their recovery gave the U.S powerful allies, we have all seen the power of a european nation not reading off the same page as the rest of the world. So having them on your side is a lot better than against your ideology. It worked, Eastern europe still looked like WW2 had just ended when the Berlin wall came down, where as Western Europe had people driving ferraris around (not many people i grant that but thats not important to capitalisms image)

Any country that asks for assistance is great news for the U.S government, they NEED to look like they are taking the lead, they need other nations to look to them as friends. The U.S aggressivly promotes liberal democracy and fights other ideologies. Policing the world makes new markets for them, opens trade routes and ultimately brings peace under there flag. No 2 liberal democracies have ever fought each other.

Policing the world is a business deal, aid for air bases, U.N support for oil and money for peace. Any attempt by the U.S to just stop on any level and disengage is an invitation to not play by the rules. You may not like the U.S policing the world and being criticised (by liberal societies they created, surely a sign they are winning) but i dont think you understand just how its working for you. The U.S is buying good behaviour and punishing bad to undermine all other ideology and secure their country from threat. Every small country you buy devalues the bigger ones, now the U.S can buy russian peace. Just look what happened when we werent all singing from the same sheet, 40million dead and that was the poxy 1940`s

Gotta agree with this, how can the land of oppurtunity not provide free healthcare and a free standard of education that gives everyone the chance to shine. The U.S looks more and more like the 18th century imperial power(in the way they run domestic affairs) everyday , where wealth is a birth-right and brilliance is blocked by class. Somebody tell me the U.S government looks after its black population i dare you? Inner city schools have so few college entrants its not funny, and so few of them ever go to colleges not tradiationally used by black people.......

b4 i go off on the race rant basic point is in certain places there is no oppurtunity, children dont develop enough to make informed choices, drop out and instantly go below the poverty line

i dont care if your einstein, if your born into poverty (there are 35million Homes in America capable of delivering that) you wont develop, you wont make informed choices and you wont create the theory of relativity, land of oppurtunity my ass..., i have a problem with the false advertising

Speaking of communism VarDin you may need to wait until the invention of the replicator before Marx`s version of it comes into play. Star Trek is totally communist (the new stuff anyway, old series still has capitalism in it) ever seen a ferrari like shuttle? why does sanfransisco look like it does now in the 21st century in trek? Federation news service? even the BBC is more independant than that sounds! Ever see anyone pay Joseph Sisko money for his cafe lunch? Why doesnt Jake have any money? Why do all starfleet admirals smuggle Romulan Ale off the Black Market? and saurian brandy? What was the point in the episode "the last outpost" THERE COMMUNISTS!!

Hi'a kids.... I'm baccccccccccccck! No I was not in Katrina.... I was fighting medical problems as well as trying to learn a new LOW PAYING JOB!.

"America what a country"

What a counrty indeed. A Superpower were called. Hmmmm. We were a superpower...... about the 1930's and 40's. Now.... We are Rome falling and Nero is playing his fiddle hard. I respect all of the posts from everyone around the world.

Now Lets get to the true meat. I was born and live in the U.S. I think I'm about the oldest American on this site at 43 years old. I have seen the history you all are talking about. I lived through it as it happened.

Yea America "Saved the world" America has also led the way in the total distruction of life on our little planet. This is fact.


Think on this.. It is said every country on our tiny planet has Rose and fallen from thier own interior. America has not yet had that happen so it is said. That is a half truth.

I agree with most of all of you on most aspects of what you have posted. I do have a "Bone " to pick with my Government, but not just them, also the french, the English, Spain and Portugul.

From my point of view, it is way different then the rest of you. Being that I'm Indian, ( Choctaw and Hopi ) I carry a resentment that was born during my fathers, fathers, fathers, fathers time. It was ingrained in me. The
U.S. is the only country in the world that still holds it aborginal peoples in emcampents, (or being bluntly) prisions. It is also the only counrty that still has on it's doctrines a LAW that calls for the total annialation of these peoples.

Yet none of you know about this. Through the aftermath of the Hurricane(s) Not one person ever asked how the natives faired after Katrina did it's damage. In Louisianna there are 7 Rezervations that were right in the path of this storm... The Government has said nothing, done nothing, nor as the media. 4 of those areas are now gone. No longer on the map. Yet no one looks. It is not talked about. The American government is a joke!!!!!!! The state officals in Louisianna, Mississippi, Georgia, and Florida, have done and said nothing for the Indian peoples.

Truth. American Indians are the biggest minority in our hemisphere. Also the most ignored unless there is oil, gas or urainium on the lands that they live. Then they are forced moved.

This countries, government and business's are all about greed. Also involved or every other major government the world over. How so you might ask? Easy.. It is called "Trading" via stocks, bonds, ect.


The basic peoples, ( you and I) the world over, are but pawns who are cought up in all this crap.

All of you.... From England, Germany, Ireland, Wales, and about 100 other countries who come here. You all are young. Bless you all for that.

American Government has helped and in the same aspect hindered every person the world over. but they are not only to blame.. Each persons government has played a part as well. It is the way of greed.

I feel bad for all of you. As you are all trapped by this mess that was created hundreds of years before any of us were even born...

I do prayer everyday for all the peoples of the world who lost there lives, due to one issue or another. It is my way.

I also curse every government for allowing anything to happen to it's peoples, when they could have taken a better path to save them.


I also blame myself... For not doing more then I can. For not trying hard enough to help others. For not shedding more of my own blood to keep others alive.. I am but 1 person... but I know I can do more, even in my crippled state of body.....

I must do more.....

i can understand the historical references your making here. Recently ive done a lot of work on the origins of the European powers and the settling of North America and i know its the native nuts in the vice from day one. It`s truly shameful stuff and no-one can sensibly look on it any other way.

And the state of affairs today is no better i agree, im not from America, do u know the only thing i have heard in any medium of broadcasting about modern native americans my whole life is Indian Gambling Casinos- thats it, and that was from a family guy episode. I have to search for traces of your people like i would searching for an ancient civilisation or tribe the romans conquered. I can understand your "trapped" feeling when your country acts like your dead.

Reservations are for wildlife not human beings- and the fact that 4 have disappeared was sickening to read, but your right, no one knew it... No one in your government cared to check.

Smallest minority or not i sincerely hope that by some "deus ex machina" (as those fallen romans might say) things get better for all natives and all minorities in the states

Communism is the only way for humanity to survive as a race. To connect this a bit to star trek, I am talking about humanity as a race, not about black people, or white people, asians or indians. Just Humans.
I am convinced that intelligent life does exist somewhere besides earth and I even believe they are watching us and perhaps even made contact already. Though I dont know that last one for sure.

Every human being gets born with the same physical potential. Your class or wealth has no influence on your intelligence or abilities. Homeless people who can't even read or write had the potential to become the next Einstein if only they were given the same change as those who are born rich. Money and wealth - capitalist thinking - is the way to transfer the human race into a Ferengi-like empire. I was always fascinated how an american could create a world (in time of the cold war) that was based on the success of the enemy system and getting away with it.

Anyway, for communism to work properly, some things have to change drastically about the human way of life and nature. Otherwise we get things like the Sovjet Union and such. (just a not for all brainwashed americans: the sovjet union did NOT have communism. Not like it was originally intended to work)

Marx was a genius. He was only born a number of years too early.

eh?

communism doesn't work. the system is too easily corrupted.

Though of course, you are forgetting that that is true of any system. Capitalism is just as corrupt if not moreso.
In addition, considering that communism has never trully existed on the national or global scale, you have therefore failed to provide any evidence to support your claim.

IOIO, I must say, I'm impressed. For you to know the mentality of everyone in your country, and to know the desires and thoughts of even most of the American citizens must mean you are a psychic of the highest order. Either that or niave. You know no more of what is on my mind, than I know whats on yours.

About your thought on the disaster, and the situation at some of the shelters. First off, I want to say that I in no way condone what those people did. To me, the only unforgivable crimes are rape and murder, and what they did during a time of disaster was completely deplorable. But to say we as Americans are responsible for producing these people is just ignorant. I hate to burst your bubble, but there are morally corrupt and evil people all over the world, not just in the US.

Var'Din, just because Marx said it, does not make it so. Truly capatalism is far from perfect, but right now it is the best workingideology out there. Like I said, it is far from being perfect, and the current American system needs some radical changes in its thinking and approach in order to sustain itself, and personally, I see many of these eventual changes being socialistic in nature. But communism in its purest, most perfect form is unattainable. It would take such a radical change in how many people around the world think to even put it in the realm of possability.

Winterhawk, good to see ya back. Sorry to hear about your medical problem, I hope its nothing too serious. Im also truly sorry to hear the news about the destroyed reseravtions. And you're right, it is news to me, I have not heard a word about that on any news netowrk. It has always been very sad how the US govt has treated her native peoples. I can only hope they do recieve some aid soon, they deserve just as much as any other person caught in that storms path.

Thanks Rigel.

I'm at risk for sudden death heart attack, have GERD, and high blood pressure... But I'll manage... lol


The sence and sinceabilities of the world total is unreal. We as normal citizens of our tiny planet, being stuck as we are is just sad. IF we could just get ALL of the government officals to just pull there heads out of there butts and truly SEE as we here on BOTF do.... Then There could be a slight glimmer of hope... lol
(Fat chance of that happening)

We (all of us) need to overthrow all the governments, adn show them how to do it in a proper way.... lol Be it the Fed way or Rom, or Klingon...(sorry we have had enough of Ferengi and Cardiassion lifestyles). We could have a chance.. Ahh alas.. it is only a dream...

Communism for a start is at heart just an economical model, nothing more.
You are right to suggest that in its true form it really has never been put to practice, this is of course due to the falacy of men who inevitably seek power.

Nothing is more fustrating to see young people harp on about how great Communism is while they waist away the hours playing games on there
£2000k computers

Try speaking to someone who has had to live through communism and i think you may get a differant view of it, while it may sound noble in the end it just will not work

Communism as it was in the Sovjet Union is to no extend what it could be. I said it myself before, and you are all right about one thing; which is that on our current world it wouldn't work.

But only because of us. Because of any of us and the way we live, That has nothing to do with the system. As a system, it works better, MUCH better, than capitalism. I am convinced that one day we will abandon capitalism and pursue the old ideology of Marx. Everyone being equal, and everyone being able to obtain the same standard of life.
This standard will not be like in the Sovjet Union (to go through with cdrwolfe's argument) no computes for everyone, but everyone will have a computer.
This will take a while, indeed. And most probably won't happen indeed until the invention of the replicator or so, but one day it will prevail over the capitalist system.

Too bad, I won't be there to witness it...

Communism - Would this also be the case of how the Federation works within it's own borders?

Now this is just my own thought, but Communism was set out to be all peoples being equal in all things. some farm, some work science, some build, with proper leaders "guiding" the country. Now IF my understanding of the Federation is correct, it is also in a manner of speaking set up the same way. I could be viewing it wrong...

Just my thoughts...