Now i have strugled to understand this! I thought that the first time the borg were encontured was in TNG but as i just found out (i know i behind times) that the borg were in a episode of ENT now What i want to know how can this be?

I kinow that it is as a result of Picard destroyed the sphere and its memains landing on earth but wouldnt of the explosion killed them? or wouldnt there biological parts burn up in atposhape? This contridict what TNG was saying!

So what i want to know is do you think it was a good idea to do this and is there any more information anyone can give me so i can tell him hes wrong lol

Got this off a site thats shows some problems with the Episode Your thoughts on what he says?

There are a few problems with this episode. First, why would the Borg leave Earth? Their goal was to Assimilate Earth when they were shot down. My only guess is that they must have either required the Hive Mind, or didn't think they were enough to take on the globe, with the more advanced technology. Next, Archer and Phlox review photographs of the Borg from the Arctic station. This shows that Starfleet had these in their databanks (at some point). Also Phlox becomes infected with the nanites, but finds a cure so that he can de-Borg himself. Great... so with these discoveries, why don't the crews of the future have not only the knowledge of the Borg, but the know-how on how to cure an assimilation-infection (I made that up... was it bad?)? Did the Gateway Computer Corp. design Starfleet's data systems? Rationale for that might be the concept that everything up until the events of First Contact was a snapshot of History (as it was), and all of History changed when Picard influenced time. If that's the rationale then there's one big fat huge paradox that cannot be escaped. If Picard changed the past, and thus the future so that Starfleet has knowledge of and defense against the Borg, then Picard wouldn't ever have become Locutus, Wolf 359 wouldn't have happened, the Borg would have lost, and never traveled back in time, so neither would Picard have. If Picard didn't, then there would be no Borg on Earth, so there would be no knowledge of, or defense against the Borg, so he would have had to travel back in time, and... See what I mean? Lastly, it bothered me that the writers had to throw the viewers a bone! Archer and Trip Tucker review past speeches which indicate that Zephrame Cochrane had encountered the Borg along with "Humans from the future!" Ah... Yeah, I remember that movie now! I expected Scott Bakula to turn to the camera and wink!

I have only one thing to say to this: Read my post on time travel in the ENT-thread.

The fact that the Enterprise encountered the Borg means they are from the same timeline as the one created in First Contact. The only logical (and possible!) conclusion is that ENT takes place in a DIFFERENT timeline than the other series.
This could very well mean that in the Timeline of ENT, they would have had a cure against the nanoprobes and the Borg would never win.

On the other hand.. a cure might work once, but the Borg will adapt anyway.

has noone stopped to think that perhaps the records from that era were not well kept? but think about it, how often is information lost? it is easy to assume that info from a brief encounter with an unknown species (which was probably classified) was just lost. there ya go easy peasy

As much as I love the film First Contact, one thing made it feel not quite right for me.

Now the Borg with one Cube had been defeted by Federation once before resulting in heavy losses to the Federation. So correct me if I'm wrong but the reason the Borg attacked the sol system with ONE Cube and travelled back in time was to prevent first contact.

Now surely for a race as powerful as the Borg would have used more than one Cube to make the mission a success

but then there would be no story i surpose

Depends how easy it is for them to get a cube into the Alpha Quadrant, if we consider the destruction it brought on the federation in the first encounter, why not just send say 3 more, its not like they don't have a shortage,

Lets face it the Borg as a species changed and adapted (no pun intended) throughout all the series, we look at TNG and they're Uber, moving on into Voy and they begin to decrease in strength, up to the point where there just plain cr*p .

Why bother going back in time when its clear to see 5 cubes could have done the job easily enough from a "TNG", point of view. bah who really knows.

To continue Jig's point, there is supposed to be summat like 170 years between Archers' encounter with the Borg, and 'First Contact'.

The more time that passes between an event and the 'present', the more likely that facts will be forgotten. (Or misinterpreted)

As time passes, things also change. As Jig said, records wouldn't have been as good as the ones in TNG times. You just have to think about things today - we can record information in writing, in sound, in video, on a computer, and so on - 170 years ago, such things were impossible!

Try to imagine what technology we might have in 170 years time (If we survive that long 8O) - we can only try to guess at it, coz we don't have any idea! If we did, what would be the point in research? We'd already know everything! 8O

Over time, things get lost or forgotten, the way information is recorded improves, and we record more of it.

The simple fact of the matter is that no-one was around to remember it, (Were the Vulcans informed of the Borg?) the information could easily have been lost, and if any info did survive, it would likely have been lacking indetail, compared to the standards/needs of TNG times.

There was one thing that people seem to have forgotten about the encounter though - the subspace message. Even if Q hadn't sent the Enterprise to meet the Borg, they would have found their way to the Federation eventually.

So even if the paradox was solved, (Obviously it can't be though) the Borg were still gonna attack, only at a later time.

Maybe the facts would be wrongly recored 75+ years ago, but in the age of Star Trek, i'm sceptical. Perhaps, though Archer wanted to conceal what happened.

If i'm correct at the end of that episdoe - T'Pol mentions that the Borg ship sent a message to the Delta Quadrant and that the time the Borg received it wouuld be in the mid 24th CE. ::scary music please::

Q sent the Enterprise-D to show them what was coming and to preper the federation for any borg attacks because of the subspace message sent many years earlier.

Q being helpful, i guess it's because he's human after all

You know that isn't weird to hear. Somehow the Q part you propose fits. Best idea is that the Borg Incident and all information related was kept secret or was deleted from the databank. Perhaps they were informed to do so, i dunno.

if i remember correctly, in that episode they never get the chance to hear the name "Borg" from the borg. they never went "We are the borg, blabla". that first.
did they even have any pictures taken from the borg bodies? if not, i assume the only record they would have (starfleet) about them would be the report from archer, and what happened at antartica. now, assuming all of that would be true (i should watch the episode again ) do you guys think the Fed could prepare, even know about the Borg? I think it fits with TNG plot of not knowing the Borg's existance.
But if we think of ST VII Generations, it could be safe to assume that the el aurians told the Federation about the borg, so, the fed would at least have some vague idea of them...

so, in the end, the Federation could have known of the borg before the Enterprise found them, but probably not the true magnitude of the threath they meant.

back to the borg just sending five cubes,maybe since the borg had almost no trouble with the federation the first time at wolf 359, the queen didnt feal it necessary to send more than one cube, she is very over confident after all or at least thats the impresion i got from the voyager series. Also i the only record is archers report it could very easilly have bee misplaced or deleted

A fleet of 800 vessels like we've seen in DS9 could destroy 5 cubes. With Locutus knowledge they managed to destroy 50 ships, but i presume got some damage (and repaired real quick). 800 vessels is like 16 times as much, it's like having 160 ships for each borgcube while having Picard at the helm? Borg would have been toast.

Depends what ships they are. And if its a Tactical Fusion Cube (8 Cubes Fused) i'm not so sure

no kidding but voyager alone was able to survive and engagement with a tactical cube, so its easy to assume that federation ships are getting much better at resisting

That's an unfair example, as Voyager was upgraded with technologies from the future and the borg themselves which the federation don't possess. Multi-phasic shielding and such.

Oh, and TrekboyChris, you played too much Star Trek: Armada II. I do not believe that a 'fusion cube' has ever occured in canon.

I was under the impression that the ‘Typhon Fleet’ that engaged the second Borg cube number 500 highly trained ships and that the battle had been raging for 5 days when Picard got back to Sol all the way from the Romulan border.

These ships were to be the first wave in the Dominion war, their destruction by the Borg was supposed to be one of the reasons for the early losses that the Federation suffered.

From my limited knowledge of the ‘Trek Universe’ the typhoon sector is between Earth and Deep Space 5, not a trillion miles from the Romulan border, which would make sense. In Voy it was mentioned that they might have to pass through Romulan space before getting home from the Delta Quadrent so it makes sense that the Borg would pass nearby.
So by that rational, it would be very easy indeed for the Borg to send a fleet of say 10 Borg cubes and totally destroy every ship in the fleet.

On another note, I don’t know if any of you have read any of William Shatner’s books? But he uses the Mirror universe in a couple and in one the two Spock’s make the suggestion that First Contact changed the timeline, making the Federation an aggressive militaristic dictatorship precisely because Cocrane was expecting the Borg to attack at any moment. The giveaway was a place called ‘Lake Slone’ on Mars being named ‘Lake Riker’ in the mirror universe.

Personally I think it makes much more sense that Cocrane just deciding to shoot the Vulcan. Though I highly enjoyed those episodes!!

I was under the impression that he sent them to see the borg to try and convice picard that the fedaration is not ready to explore that there are things that will destroy them easily!

And the point about voyager being able to destroy a tactical cube? no such thing as a tacical cube! But borg would not stand a chance if picard was at frontline with the enterprise! even if there were 10 borg cubes! look at the battle in First contact ! how much damage did the enterprise suffer? nothing!

Voyager DID take on a Tactical Cube, but it was already damaged by a nubula or something and Voayager only disabled it by smuggling a torpedo onboard somehow (I foget how they did it)

You forgot that the borg cube was already under a massive federation attack and that a **** LOAD of torpedeo's were all fired in a consitrated pattern almost as soon as the fleet arrived... not giving the cube a chance to bring the enterprises shields down.

but still i bet on its own that enterprise could take down the cube!

Of course! It wouldn't be Enterprise if it couldn't...

Sorry Billy I fail to agree, Enterprise on it's own would have to get lucky and destroy the cube quickly before it ha chance to adapt. Unless Enterprise had the enhancments Voyager had when she finally got home.

Cubes have only been destryed by a fleet of ships never one except in Voyagers case where it had the immediate advantage ie Cube was damaged or technology from the future.

@Puggsley1980 : it took less then a day that i'm sure about, data tells how long it would take to go to sol, before the fleet is under attack. You impression of that fleet is doubful, since i can't find any canon information about it, is it a book or something?

I'll try and find it, i'm not sure how cannon it is, i think it was in a interview with one of the writers.

Seems a fair impression of the situation to me though, woudl make sense given the suggested size of the Federation fleet.

http://ditl.org/index.htm?daymain=/hedbattle.php?12

This is where i read it, but reading it again now i see that he is only speculating about the figures.

Still a good yarn!

I've been lurking here for approaching a year I think, on and off every few months (like I used to at Starbase Delta, for anyone familiar with Stars!SN), but anyway.. I registered JUST for this discussion

I've referenced DITL for years, as the site's pretty objective, it knows when to take certain things (like a good chunk of Voyager) with a grain of salt, etc.

Anyway, it was mentioned some where along the line in DS9, and again in the books, that the Dominion War wasn't made easy by the massive loss incurred at the battle that ran from Typhon Sector back to Sol. The reason DITL speculates 4 days is because even though in the movie it appeared be a fast trip, at maximum sustainable cruise, from clear out on the Romulan border, it'd of taken 4 days. Probably longer then that -- he probably figured it maintained Warp 9.99 for the 96 hour trip instead of the normal 36 hour rated maximum.. Scotty and La'Forge have done more amazing things than hold the hull and engines together under a little stress, right?

I personally don't think that the 500 ship loss would've made a big difference in the war though.... there were several cases, both on the show and later in the books, that pointed out whole fleets leaving with hundreds of ships, and returning with a half dozen ships a few days later, half of which are towing the other half. That was probably status-quo early on, and not uncommon up until the Romulan's got in to the act.

Five cubes would've laid waste to the fleet, and only could've been stopped if the entire fleet was able to gather at once... which couldn't of happened, 'cause Federation space can take like a year or more to cross from one side to the other! At the end of the Dominion War, there were still ships showing up that'd been on patrol way out on the far side of the federation.. According to DITLs calculator (operating on canon data), to cross the Fed at 9.99 (achievable only by the Sovereign class if i'm not mistaken), it still takes 1 year and 4 days!

Anyway, I never saw the ENT episode ya'll are talking about.. that whole series depressed me, stopped watching fairly early on, but this one seems worth finding a torrent for.

Edit: Another note, standard cruise for a bunch of older ships is around warp 6 or so, and at that rate, it'd take 20 years to cross the federation! There's some things ditl has come up with to explain how faster travels possible, but.. can't seem to find it, I think he got too much heat for his suggestions and took it down. Basically areas of space where normal space influences subspace less, allowing the warp field to move ships faster. IE, the old Enterprise going to the galactic core and back.

There are some very interesting ideas on how long it takes ship to cross Federation space, in another thread I started about ‘Maps of Federation space’ some people posted link showing various estimates of Federation territory. In a few I have looked up myself the differences in the guesswork is massive.

One link states that in ‘Insurrection’ Picard says that the Federation consists of 150 member worlds spanning 8000 light years.

By that estimate it would have taken the Enterprise about a year to get back from the Romulan border to the Sol system and would take 4 years to cross the whole of the Federation.

DITL estimates that StarFleet had about 8,500 ships in commission by the start of the Dominion war, so 500 ships in a fleet, especially the main battle group, would be more than reasonable.

borg timeline not counting first contact

1) Enterprise era- they encounter the borg and have absolutely no idea who they are and have little information about them

2) Voyager era- a science vessel is sent out to find and investigate the borg to try to garner data, (The Raven-7 of 9) its unknown if the hansons mmmmmm bop... knew the borg were called the borg or found out later

3)TNG era- Q introduces picard to the borg to both scare and warn, just because picard didnt know they were called the borg doesnt mean it wasn't in the ship data base, the only ship to make contact with a borg cube previous was the raven so the ship profile was unknown, all enterprise era saw was a partial sphere and one assimilated vessel, Look at trek history, How many unknown hostile one off aliens had kirk met? if another one turned up in TNG in a completely unknown ship would picard have instantly known what it was called and what abilities and weaknesses it had?........

To be honest the only thing in the potty affair that puzzled me is Guinan, the elorians were destroyed by the borg but the survivors must have told the federation nothing about them, i only assume the elorians didnt want the federation to know so they wouldnt go looking for em.... another thing of interest is how would somebody who made Q panic be destroyed by the borg. I have a pet theory that guinan is actualy a Q or Q type being who refuses to use her powers on a moral standpoint

As for the speed and distance of travelled the Enterprise is equipped with "magical pixies of instantanious travel and trouble finding" otherwise the continuing voyages would have been continuing for around 30 to 40 real time years. Thats what i liked about Enterprise, it takes several episodes to get to another system.. a complete searies in the case of the xindi.

A question for you i could never get my head round it

did all the borg get detroyed by janeway in end game part 1 and 2 or did they get get a magure ass kicking?

What's the fun of the borg totally be destroyed? Wasn't there mention of the Borg by Daniels or something? Anyway i hope that they work with the Borg again, and i thought that the way Janeway managed to destroy the Borg queen was a bit stupid...