hi
iv been visiting a few months now and its great to see someone working on a botf 2 project. Hopefully this time it really is "for real". The image of your site is great (very trekky) but its not exacly laid out well is it and its only updated like what? once per month? The question everyone keeps asking is when are you going to release this game? and each time you reply with a more inpatientlym but I think the real question is "how far have you got this week?".

this is just a suggestion but I think you should make a lot of improvements to this website if you want to get more attention from the botf fans out there. That way your chances of finding more willing specialists to help with your project will be higher.

When I say website improvements I mean you need to lay everything out properly, you need a whole section telling the fans what features we are going to see in this game and how much you have improved it rather than directing us to forums and interviews. You need to update the news much more frequently telling us how far you have got this week etc. On the main page you need advertise requests for specilists ie programmers, graphics designers etc and most importantly, to keep everyones mind at ease you need to put on the main page "ETA of demo release" even if its "Early-Mid 2006" and update that ETA as you get closer to a release. That way your forum wont get "cluttered" with pointless questions that have already been answered and the site will surely get a lot more hits and people that will visit frequently? I mean lets face it, if you dont update more frequently people are simply going to forget about it.

Just a suggestion

Hey there, Fearless, welcome to the forums!

To be honest, you've chosen the right name - there will probably be many people on the site that want to kill you for some of the things you just said - but i'm not one of them.

I agree that the forums could do with sprucing up to get people interested again. The news section of the site doesn't really contain much information, and there hasn't been any adverts since...well, the site's creation in September 2004. (The site was updated in 2005 which is why the site stats. don't go all the way back to Sep. 2004)

You have to remember though, that this is a fan-made game. Gavin isn't being paid to do it, and he doesn't have the resources of a company like EA or Atari. If problems arise, he can't simply recruit someone else to take over or just throw money at it.

They become giant hurdles that need to be overcome, which is why there have been numerous delays.

If you've been reading the forums lately, you'll also know that Gavin has decided that the game will be a multi-platform release. This one decision alone effectively doubles his workload, pushing back the release even further.

Now you could argue that Gavin could ask for help, as he did back when he started the project. The way I see it though, is that Gavin prefers to work on his own. If he does all the programming work himself, then he knows that every aspect of the game will work.

The moment that someone else takes over, he can't guarantee that anymore.

Now i've never met him. I've never spoken to him online, nothing. But I have been here on the forums for a very long time, and I know some people who have talked to him. I've read his posts and gleaned as much information as I can about the way the game is going, and that is the conclusion I have come to.

I may be entirely wrong about it, but that's how I believe he likes to work.

Now I know you're only talking about making a few changes to the website, but how can you update it the website with any measure of accuracy without Gavin's input?

Unless Gavin takes time out of making the game, he can't do it. He has a personal life - as does everyone else. Soemtimes things just get in the way.

The "public face" of the game has always been Jigalypuff, and he did the job well. He was a friend of Gavin's, but even he had trouble getting info about Gavin's progress. Now that he isn't a part of the dev team anymore, he can't provide any up to date information. This job is now in the hands of Skeeter and Iwulff - and trust me when I say it isn't a job I envy.

How would you like to keep 1500 people on the site happy by telling them that you simply don't know the answers to their questions?

There are good points and bad points about the way gavin is working, and to be honest, he'd be the perfect Nintendo programmer.

Yes there have been delays, yes things have changed since the game's concept. The fact of the matter is that it is still being worked on, it'll just take longer than everyone thought.

It would be nice to have changes, but I just don't see them happening.

Everyone has their own ideas though, and maybe i'll be proved wrong - in fact I hope I am. Coz then at least we'll have some more screenies or something.

This thread will probably spark a big discussion, for which I thank you. it would be nice to see the forums come alive again...even if resistance is futile.

Welcome to the forums.

Hey thanks for the welcome, sorry to suddenly join and intrude with my suggestions lol its just my ideas of improving the project. I understand its only privately fan owned. Nah Gavin doesnt have to do anything, we have already got lots of information from his recent interview, that interview is a start, all the information he provided should be added to the site in a "features" section. If the site is updated with every little piece of information they get then that 1500 fans could be increased to 10000+ I didnt even know this project was so serious until I listened to that interview last month. You should make it loud and clear to all the visitors who come to this site just how big this project is...

To be honest I couldnt agree more with what fearless is saying.

Ye i'm with you Jade. I agree with what you said Fearless.

btw Welcome To The Forums

I never said I was against any changes, I just said that I thought it would be unlikely for them to happen.

Anyways, if you want information about the game, Fearless, just say. I can give you links to all bits and pieces about the game.

I save interesting stuff in my favourites list for newbies like you (Well, you're not exactly a newbie if you've been lurking as you say but whatever) just let me know, and see what i've got for you.

You can have the Database as well, if you want.

MOE is always there to write veryyyy long answers including all the information you can possibly want to know about... everything really! Just to help new arrivals

Yeah... Well. My pov is like this:

I prefer those working on the program to do just that and not spend their time making improvements to the site, no matter how much I want to see the site made cooler.

Now, if someone else (Neither I nor a Dev) would like to volunteer to spearhead this project (nudge, nudge) I'd be willing to try to be of help -- I just wanna run the operation.

Welcome Fearless. Glad you're aboard.

I think most of us agree with what Mister Fearless is saying here. I even think most of us secretly agree with the things other people have been saying about the site. I know I do.

The only problem is with the tone most people have when they "ask" (or demand is more suited) for updates and such. The question Fearless posed is perfectly valid and, most of all, polite. The only thing that could be said is that this topic should actualy be in the announcement topic about this on the top of the forums page.

It remains Gavin's call, of couse. And if he doesn't want it to change, it won't change. But the one thing I know, is that he can most easily 'recruit' someone from this very board with experience with php and HTML who is willing to maintain this site and update it every now and then without any compensation whatsoever.

But, he doesn't. And we can do nothing but accept that decision and wait patiently for the game to finish. Which will happen, inevitably.

yeah.....fearless....you are right....maybe we could chance the site a little bit to get more people to the site......but I think it must not be the task of the people who work on the project......like ZDarby said ....there must be some people who are willing to do this.........but first we must now what Jig and gavin other people want to do.....

Btw...welkom to the forum fearless>>>I hope whe hear more of you

the only people who can change the whole layout of the site is myself or afc.
gavin can post news, but he has choosen not to do so.
i am meeting him soon in london and then i will post all relevent information.

What can I say? I'm just happy to help - and I was brainwashed by an English teacher...



Sadly that won't be me - I haven't got a clue how to make a website.

If people really want to have a go though, it would be best if you get in contact with Jigalypuff. I know he's quit the team, but he made a promise to AFC to run the site on his behalf, which is why he's still around.

If people have any ideas for changes, then he would be the guy to ask. Remember that he has his own life to lead though, although I doubt he'd refuse - he's never refused to help me if I had a question or anything.

And if people think this thread should be moved to the announcements forum, then just ask Jigalypuff, Iwullf, or Skeeter. They've moved threads befor, and they can do it again.

The points are valid in particular a quick info page with bullet point description of the games features is needed with all relevant links on it. But as stated you need someone new who wont need to be pulled of other aspects of the game to do it otherwise im a patient man and can settle for this - ive been asking about intel for about a year now and been getting info back (one of the screenies for instance) a sligtly cluttered forumn isnt a problem.

sounds gr8, m8.

Oh and i have got experience with php, css, xhtml, databases, mysql, etc.. i am in the process of finishing a webshop.

Wow im surprised by how much response there was. Thanks for the welcome guys. Glad to hear most of you agree with me but its only a suggestion for the dev team.

Excellent!

-

and i do agree partially with Fearless.

Im gald to hear that Jiggly!

I guess ill expand on my blunt reply lol.

I think the site is fine looks wise it is very treky. But i think that maybe it needs a bit more on the progress. I mean we all know its in the forum but people who are new to the site and dont understand how it works maybe wont look there.

Maybe just on the home page have links to the ships and stations threads to give some insite on what the games ships will be like etc or just host the image of some of the favorite ship models.

Its only an idea but from what I understand many ships have been made but not posted, I would like to see all the completed ships but i know the creators of these ships are busy working on the next one and dont really have time to post them all. I think we do need a middle man who does have the time to do these things to help the fans stay interested.

I for one have been visiting the site less because of the lack of news on the games progress but still will check the site daily just incase.

These are only ideas and are in no way ment to put unwanted pressure on the team.

Yes exacly. Don't know about all of you but when i first visit a new game site i don't usually go straight to the forums, i research it first. There needs to be a database of all the ships, buildings races and all the other general improvements and a middle man needs to fit that on the site.

Wait! You mean there's a website outside the forum?? Where is this jewel in the lotus? Have I been missing it all these many moonths? Gosh! Do I feel embarrassed!

wlecome to the forum fearless hope you like it

hm,mmmm personaly i love MOEs two page answers something to do lol


PS- moe im back online now so txt me next time ur online but dont wait hidden again or we be there for a while lol

Jade, I agree only partially with you. Since it is very true most new players check out the site first before going to the forums, I doubt many will be that enthousiastic from the pictures in 'the gallery' at the moment. Deleting all the crap in there and posting pictures of the recent achievements in the fields of ship models and interface will be a major step towards glory (and not nescessarily that much work either).
I disagree when you say that it is wise to show all of the pictures. I mean, there needs to be *some* kind of suprise left for us when we first play the game.
Perhaps it is also an idea to add another caption labelled 'features' which discusses the new options and theory of the game. (A bit like the "TWAAO"-thread but than a bit more organised and compact [and up to date, of course]. ) How is the new version of the database comming along, btw? Might also be nice to update the downloads section.

To conclude, I think the remark of ZDarby is about all the info we need (and I realy think he was serious):



ZDarby, the site we are referring to is this one you are looking at. Just click at the links 'downloads', 'gallery', 'home'. That is the site. And that is the first thing new people will look at. Generally, I never realy bother to look at the forums of game sites and would dismiss this one after the very first glance. It is only coincidence that I clicked a link which brought me directly to a thread in this forum a year back.

Bottom line, this project is just too good to deserve a site like this and I repeat that I am confident that there will be more than enough members who are more than willing to aid in updating and transforming this website.

to be honest i think that the site should be left as it is. Dont waste time which can be used on game delepoment. The site is fine just the way it is to be honest i think its good. only think i find a little wrong is the gallary and thats coz there are some pics in there that i dont rely think they belong there but it dont matter.

ive been coming here since late 2004, and have no idea whats done and whats not, its all scattered. why not just get someone to do compile model lists etc? what happened to that once a week question time? I know people come on here and give attitude, but i understand where they are coming from but without hte hostility.

This is a game development website and forum, yet no1 has any idea whats developed whats not. it would be so easy to get a list of ships and a few pics of each, just to give people something to look at. all we see nowadays is borging to 100Ghz or Bsg threads. nothing really game related.

Lets try and look like this as a business, if gavin cant get the game out anytime fast well so be it, but everyones elses contributes should be shown, so other peoples who are new can have a general idea.

This has been going since late 2003.... where can people go to see what there is?

My point exacly, the project is far to major for a site like this one, this is like a botf fan site that hasent been updated since napoleon took europe. When I first saw this site I thought "ok this is another botf mod that isnt going to be taken very seriously." But anyway im a big botf fan so I thought ah well might as well look into it and it wasnt until i listened to the interview that I realised this is a serious project dedicated to an entirely new unofficial title.

But I still keep seeing people say "id rather the devs work on the game than the site" the devs don't need to work on the site! lol the site needs a team of its own, that way the devs don't have to worry about updating and maintaining the website and can focus more on the project at hand.

hmmm......yes i think there must be a place in the home section of the site where you could see the progress of the game......actualy if you dont follow the forum you can't now how much progress there has been made.......


When I first saw the site I first looked at the gallary .....I saw it was nothing that had to do with the game......I expected some pictures of ships for the game....It would be a great step if someone could put in some pictures of the game ......only a few would already be great.....so people can see..Look here's a real game in progress......I dont ask people to do this.....but it would be a major step for the site

Ok... So... Now that we all agree... Who wants to take on the project???

The best guy to do it would be Jig - he's the site admin, so he could make any changes easily.

The real question is if he has the time to make any changes and does he want to do it?

Anyway, i've had my say, (You guys know how I rattle on... ) so I just want to ask whether people want me to post links to all the existing pictures that are up (And still working) on the site, or whether they would rather I posted the pictures or whatever?

It would save people looking for them themselves...

Ooh, by the way, does anyone still have the sample of the Klingon music that Terakrall created a while ago?

I lost it when I reformatted my computer and he isn't hosting it anymore...

If anyone has it, could you email it to me?

grimmedbythereapernew@yahoo.co.uk

It would be awesome if something came of this thread. I was just tooling around a certain bittorrent site, and posted a comment on an original BOTF iso posting. Something like four people responded to me with a PM asking about this 'BOTF 2' i speak of, and I sent them here. Two of them responded and said it looked dead, and it first glance, it definitely does. Only when you go in to the forum do you see sparks of life, and even then, you only find life in the community, not in development.

I agree that someone other then Gavin could very easily keep the site looking professional (just because the Red Cross isn't about profit margins, their site still looks professional, right? Same with a billion other open source software sites that earn zero dollars), and since it wouldn't be Gavin himself, it wouldn't slow down development. News could be gleaned too from even just a quick 5 minute AIM conversation weekly between Gavin and someone who posts news.

I'd volunteer myself, but all I'm good at is overclocking and gaming, and I'm an economics major, not comp science. I don't think finding the volunteer would be the problem though, just getting something moving would be.

Edit: And I must've missed the thread about a multiplatform release.. neh.. I wish we wouldn't, I could understand Linux and windows IF it were being developed under Linux, but Linux, Mac, and Windows? Windows itself could be bad enough, because Vista will be 'the' OS by the time it sees light of day, along with XP, 2003, XP Pro x64, 2000, and 98SE support. Not to mention possible differences that might exist between different types of Vista, including 32 & 64bits. The 5 to 10% that collectively use Linux and Mac already knew when they started using that OS that they weren't going to get any cool games right off the bat, ever, anyway! And most of those people have a PC sitting around somewhere for the occasional gaming session, wether they admit it or not

currently jig, me and gav can change the site. I'm actually a bit exhausted at the moment, i have a big project to finish and i fear to not get the deadline. I want it to be spring again.. anyway the problem is that i can't update the site currently. gav is REALLY busy.. and i mean really. He is rarely online and thus can't say much about the project engine/coding and such. I truly want to put online some more info, so i will try and get some news out of it. I can atleast put online the fact that this goes multiplatvorm, right?

Yeah, that's an update, so do it. Some people on the site (Like us) already know about it, but not everyone will.

At least it'll show that there is still life in the website - and the game. As everyone has said, all the life is currently in the forums, not the website...

As Ringold said, people saw the homepage, and they instantly thought the site was dead coz the last (Shown) update was four months ago!

The tiniest bit of information, even if it's just once a month will be enough to keep the site going, and it'll encourage people to look at the forums, where they'll see that the game really is a valid project, and not just some (Apparently) long-forgotten website.