I was reading through the thread, and something stuck me as being almost self-evident: the reason why you don't see gay people in Star Trek (a narrative reason, at least) would be that by Star Trek's time (24th Century), it's more than likely they'll be able to cure someone of being gay, if that is what they wish.

I figure that if they can have ships that go faster than light, make sentient computers (eg. Data, who is a sentient computer in an android body), anti-gravity, replicators, transporters, etc., they should be able to cure ANY kind of genetic defect.

This statement may be interpreted by some as reactionary, of course, but consider this: I had a friend who was gay, and at one point, we had a conversation in which he stated that if there was a such a cure, he would take it in a heartbeat, especially when he was in his teenage years.

If there was such a cure, and if one of my sons were gay, I'd like to think that having the option to take the cure would at least be available to him, rather than having it denied to him for reasons of political correctness.

Just my two loonies worth,

Maniacal Man

But if homosexuality is purely genetic, then that means it should be classed as a disease. The stigma of homosexuality alone has been enough to drive some people to commit suicide, so imagine what it would do if it was "officially" a disease!

Besides, would they really "cure" it? Geordi couldn't see because he had a genetic condition, but they never cured him. They instead gave him a device that allowed him to see.

The Federation is completely against genetic engineering (Which in my mind is the wrong policy - i'm totally for it, as long as there are very tight controls on the technology) so they would never go to the extreme of curing all people of homosexuality.

Then again, there's the eugenics wars, and who knows what was done during those times...?

Kind of a dangerous path here, isn't it? I mean, if homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, is it a disease or isn't it? Is it something that is physically different about somebody that they can choose (or be coerced) to have cured? Or is that genetic difference somehow relating to which thoughts are acted on and which are not?

Do you see why this concerns me? If, hypothetically, in the future we are able to isolate genetic/chemical reasons for certain behaviours/impluses, and have the ability to 'correct' them, where does it stop? Homosexuality is not something that is inherently dangerous (especially if it is a genetic predisposition), nor does it affect anyone else negatively, at least medically, if they choose not to be. So if that is a 'problem' or 'defect' necessitating correction, where do those corrections stop? Do we 'cure' learning disabilities or genius? Do we 'cure' anti-social behaviour, or even shyness? Do we find genetic markers that predispose someone for a 'less desirable' contribution to society like the arts and slowly weed them out in favor of technical knowledge? Is there going to be some ideal human genetic template that people are judged against?

Does that scare anyone else?

At first I wasn't sure if I should say anything or just keep my mouth shut, but there comes a point where individuals of good conscience can no longer remain quiet. As I read through this thread, it saddened me to see so many derisive and divisive remarks--from both sides--on a site dedicated to an ideal of equality and harmony. Cure gays using gene therapy? I suppose next we'll cure the blacks, the asians, the Jews, the Muslims, and the Irish since--according to our rich cultural heritage of hatred and bigotry--these are all "genetic defects" as well. While we're at it, we should probably cure all religious groups, too, since talking to invisible creatures who watch and judge us, believing that dogs turn into people to marry princesses, and of course believing that the dead rise from the grave are all powerful markers of schizophrenia as well as various world religions. Perhaps we should simply get rid of any and all genetic "anomalies" or differences for the betterment of our race. Hmm, I guess Hitler, Torquemada, and their ilk were actually visionaries.

Some of you may think I'm being too harsh, and in some respect I actually agree with you. My anger comes from experience. When you've sat through as many suicide vigils as I have, hearing over and over again the lament of "Society hates me and will never accept me," any compassionate individual tends to develop a deep hatred of the social conditions which perpetuate these divisions. Denying homosexuals even the basic acknowledgement of existence--even worse labeling them diseased, a practice abandoned by the American Psychological Association (which represents largely the Americas and Europe) completely in 1986 check here http://perham.eot.com/~vati/peterson/hist.html --sows the seeds of hatred and bigotry which drive so many people to their own deaths, just as surely as strapping every non-homosexual ally to a chair and forcing them to watch propaganda after propaganda.

In the final analysis, we are all one human race. The only "problem" with homosexuals, the reason why they and others might want to be "cured," is the social hatred and prejudice they are subjected to, often by people who never take the time to even attempt to understand or listen to them. With diseases, biological weapons, and even nuclear capabilities spreading across our globe, we need to stop focusing on meaningless categories. Gay, straight, Christian, Muslim and countless others are nothing but worthless names to describe simple aspects or traits. What matters, what actually carries value, are the people. I am increasingly convinced that if our race is to survive for much longer, it will be because we learn to stop wasting our time dividing ourselves into smaller and smaller categories and finally learn to work together. It's time to leave the fear-driven dark ages behind us and grow up as a race.

Iwulff, I want to thank you for being willing to say what I'm sure plenty of people are thinking, and I'm glad to hear that you don't explicitly wish death on all homosexuals (a significant step up from some people I've encountered). Knowledge, questions, and debates are the seeds from which wisdom and understanding grow, so the more points of view brought in the more beneficial the discussion. In the final analysis, I believe that religion is the center of the debate over homo/bisexuality. Though in name this thread may seem addressed to you, but I speak to all in the hopes of encouraging questions and exploration of thought. With that in mind, let me throw out a few thoughts to be considered.

First, quickly, I'd like to speak to this:
[/quote]But i find it hard that people want to see all groups equal. In a way you never can, because they are different. It's naive to think this will ever be 100% accepted.


I have no idea if I did that right since this is my first time trying to use the "Quote" command, but hopefully it shows up. When I read this, the question which immediately pops into my mind is, "Just because something is difficult or may not be attainable by us, does that mean we abandon it?" It seems that humanity does almost nothing but pursue the impossible. Even if we don't ever reach the final destination--having a complete map of the universe, truly and fully understanding the concept of "god," cataloguing the various thoughts and abilities of mankind, etc.--we certainly learn a great deal along the way. I digress, but I wanted to point out that idea.

In the case of religion, I must first ask how any of us can know what a divine being thinks or desires. Setting aside the question of which interpretation of "god" or "gods" is actually correct, we must ask ourselves how humans can understand the intentions of divine beings. Humans are flawed creatures and make mistakes. For instance, let's look at the Catholic church seeing as it is historically the largest and most recognizable guiding force of the larger Christian faith.

The church, of course, is guided by humans. According to the church's own doctrines, the pope guides the church and possesses the singular ability to pass laws and the like which automatically receive divine ratification. Essentially, the pope speaks for god and Jesus Christ on Earth, and everything he says is divinely approved of. This past year, the pope and Vatican have announced that limbo--a place incorporated into the beliefs of the faith since at least the 13th century--does not in fact exist. This, then, means that either the previous popes and leaders who endorsed the idea were wrong or that the current pope is wrong in denying it. Humans make mistakes and misinterpretations.

Of course, not all Christians are followers or even fans of the Catholic church. To this, I ask, "When was Christ [the central, unique figure of Christianity] born?" The ready answer would of course be December 25th, yet this is itself debated as the scriptures do not provide an actual date. December 25th is simply the date picked by the bishop of Rome in 354 (more than 300 years after the fact, so to speak), a date which coincided with a feast in honor of the god Saturn. Other dates have been suggested ranging from January 6 to sometime in the year prior to the onset of winter (before the third week in October) with scriptural support (see http://www.truechristian.org/are_you_a_ ... istmas.htm for such instance). This would seem to me a rather fundamental part of the religion, yet even that it raises doubt. While my intention is not to undermine the faith, I do believe this points out how easily people can make mistakes. Therefore, how can we truly know what any particular god feels?

Next question to raise, are homosexuals against any particular god's plan? In the strictest, biological sense, homosexuals can't procreate, so this does seem to go against a natural order. However, people who are infertile or sterile do not create biological offspring, so are they also loathed by this god? What about priests who take a vow of celibacy, or individuals such as myself who choose to take no part in romance/sex because we follow life courses which don't offer room for raising children? Are all of these groups also rejected?

As sensou pointed out, creating an actual child is not the only means to contribute to the growth of society. Adoptive parents don't create the child, but they certainly do raise and care for it. Preventing deaths contributes to the growth of society. Priests attempt to spread the word of their chosen god, a contribution I should think that god would hold in favor. It would seem to me that attempting to be the best human being you can be and trying to improve as many lives as possible would be admirable actions upon which sex or child creation has no bearing. To me, this looks like a paradox. Also, as sensou mentioned, why would a god create a group of people it rejected? Based on what we currently know, I don't see how we can make firm conclusions about what a divine entity might think.

Finally, for the sake of argument, let's assume for the moment that the Judeo-Christo-Islamic god is the correct "choice" in gods, and that it does in fact reject homosexuals. Let's assume that homosexuality was perhaps introduced by a demonic creature of sorts to corrupt or destroy humanity, and that it is in fact a disease of some sort which we can't yet fully fathom. What, then, makes a god worth being worshipped and revered?

I throw out this question for thought because it strikes me as a serious contradiction. Even in the worst-case scenario--that homosexuality is a demonic disease--apparently this benevolent god rejects and condemns people simply for being infected, something which they have little to no control over. True, we use quarantines on deadly contagions, but shouldn't a god be able to cure a disease without killing the patient, and shouldn't it be humane enough to do so? This doesn't seem like the act of a creature I would even respect. Even worse, what if homosexuality isn't really a disease, but simply a difference in genetics, opinion, hormone levels, etc.? Then this creature wantonly condemns hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people for the crime of being different. Whether it exists or not, I would never willingly bend my knee to a creature which behaves in such a petty manner. In fact, I would be hard-pressed not to do everything in my admittedly little power to fight against such tyranny. So, again, I must ask what makes a god worthy of worship?

I ask these questions because they have constantly popped into my mind. A lot of people do say that homosexuality is against the will of a particular god or group of gods, and honestly I don't know how to go about reconciling those doubts. By asking and talking about them, I hope to expand my own understanding and move closer to an answer. Hopefully, my thoughts can even be of use to someone else either in exposing false beliefs or gaining a deeper understanding of divine wisdom.[/quote]

Well said ritter,

The point is Homosexuality is a preference. Everyone has their own tastes some like Broccoli some don't. To be honest I can't understand how a man could choose a guy over a gal. But the point is it is there preference, I don't object to them as long as they do not force their ideals onto others and in the grand scheme of things. The more homosexuals there are the less competition there is.

Well that used to be my philosophy but I'm married now.
No one can say there were no gays in Starfleet.
The Federation prides itself on understanding different cultures and respecting people's beliefs. I think its safer to just let it be then to continuously debate about it, to question the rights they have or ask one another what they think about them.

Simply put there is no THEM, you cannot separate them. They are human beings like you or me and to put them in a separate caste from the rest of us is not only futile its pointless. You can not stop change and homosexuality has been around a long time.

It is no epidemic it is just that more and more groups that feel outcasted are stepping forward and demanding to be accepted. George Takei for example. So if you continue this topic just stop referring to /THEM/ because the only thing you are separating from society is yourself by not getting with the times and accepting that they have the same rights you do and they should.

And if you can't see that it just means more girls for you and you keep a grudge against them then perhaps you should take a few moments to question your own sexuality because Homophobia is generally attributed to projection of your own insecurities more so then prejudice.

I mean think of it logically, why should it bother you. What do you have to fear? Oppression? Oppression from who? just what makes you afraid?

Anger is nothing but fear, fear is nothing but the unknown.

Does it actually say in the bible that god is against Homosexuality or is that just what people have assumed.

Being gay or lesbian doesn't change how we should think of a person. I know a few outward gay people and they are perfectly nice andi get along fine with them. It's not even our business what sexuality they are but just because they're GBLT they get beaten-up and harassed. That's just unacceptable. And ye, if God don't like them then why did he create them - just like terrorists

@ ritter do you mean purgatory when you say limbo?
@tbc yes it does in fact say in the bible thou shalt not lay with the beasts of the field or with another man as thou would with a woman.

Yes in the bible god says he is against it. There is a difference between having those feeling and actually doing it. And please we are all born in sin, God didn't create homosexuality, he merely let humans choose there own paths. Otherwise we would be forced into doing everything we do. Sin never should have happened, but when Eve and Adam understood the difference between right and wrong and disobed God, they were in sin. And now because we are their children, we are also in sin.

But i see a failure in your thinking, ridder. It's not the church that creates a religion. The churches like catholic and such are totally wrong because they are not following rules in the bible. I do not accept the pope as our liasion. Our contact to God, is Jesus Christ and there is the holy spirit. It's actually a goal for a christian, to know God more and more.

The issue when Christ was born has no importance, i don't celebrate his birth, i don't do christmas. And no i don't feel fear, i don't fear death, because i know that God exists and didn't i say that i don't feel anger to those who are gay? It's not my place now to condemn those people. i feel anger towards the devil, because he is the cause for all the problems.

Also god doesn't like prostitutues but Rahab is praised for her faith. Just that you know.

You are forgetting one thing Reinhardt. Most of those rules were only intended for Jews. It was to show that we can't get salvation through a law. Only Jesus was able to be without sin, and because of his death, he became the ultimate sacrifice.

About all of your ideas of God. God knows everything that has been done by you. Yet why doesn't he put an end to it, right now? Easy, he doesn't want just any humans. He want people that want to follow Jesus and become cleansed in his blood.

Most of you people are like going along of what the public thinks. If you think being openminded is saying that you should accept everything around you, then you are wrong. What about stealing, murder, rape? Should they be seen as normal in the next 20 years? I won't be openminded towards things like these. I know what is wrong and what is right.

Our path in this live isn't just to love eachother (important), it's also about knowing God and loving him.

Edit by admin: You can pm an admin for reasons to close this topic. I have not seen any offensive conversations going on here.
Iwulff

I don't think we should close the thread for it, but I must say I do wonder what religion has to do with the subject at hand (the discussion about a homophilic character in startrek). I still fail to see the connection with religion and besides, from the looks of it, religion doesn't realy exist anymore among humans during Star Trek. (the only exeption perhaps is Chakotay, but I don't see his animal guide object if he discovered he's actualy gay)

So, back to the subject. Since relations never are a real storyline within Star Trek (ok, you've got Miles and Keiko, and Paris and Torres, but that's about it) I realy do not think it needs to become a set character. But just in a single episode of trek where they'd discover a civilisation which is on the brink of self-destruction since 80% of the population is homophilic, for example, I'm just brain storming here, I don't see why not.

Tis only natural to be different.
If everyone was the same there would be no change, no grown, no new knowledge, just basicly a waste.

Being black or white is something your born with.
Being gay, can be something your born with or something you choise.
As far as im concerned, if someone wants to be gay thats just fine, as long as he/she dosent force me to change my choices in life.

Thats part of freedom and free will.
Personaly ild much rather know that someone is gay, even in a gay relationship then the hundreds of (to me) more objectional things people can do.

(to name a few) Rape, Murder, Incest, Theft.

I personaly dont dislike someone because he is *gasp* gay. In fact i have several friends i know that are gay. When i meet someone and find out they are gay im totaly ok with it. The only thing i tell them is that i myself am not gay, dont want to be flirted with or hit on by the gay person, and have no interest in changing how i feel. Anything else, im fine with.

Most of the people i say that to are first shocked that im so forward with them on the subject, then realize im simply stating the facts. Of all the gay people i have met, i have become close friends with every one of them, and never have had any problems with them.

Why? Simple. I dont try to change them, and i dont object to the way they feel about it. I only wish it would be the same with religious people. I have never had a problem with a gay person, however nearly every religious person ive met and said similar things to has resulted in those people trying to change the way i feel and treat religion.

The problem isint with people being gay. The problem is with over-religious people thinking their way is the *only* correct way and trying to change others. I have no problem with anyone choising a form of worship, and practicing it. My problem is when those people choise to try and change the way i feel or think about religion or any of numerous other subjects.

Case and example:
For a short while i lived in texas, specificly in the area known as the bible belt. While there (i being a single white male) met 2 diferent people.
The first i met was a single black man, who i later found out was gay. He wasent very religious, much like myself. Once i found out he was gay i simply let him know how i felt and how it didnt bother me if he didnt *force* the gay subject on me. To this day (thou i now live in a different state) he and i are still friends and e-mail each other.
I got along (and still get along) good with him because he wasent trying to force his choices down my neck.
The second i met was a married black woman, who was very religious. Upon finding out how religious she was, i told her that i myself was not very religious. I made the mistake of saying i was fine with whatever she choise (religion wise) as long as she didnt preach it to me and try to change me on it. As expected she would preach to me about religion all the time, eventully to the point where it was one of a few reasons for me to leave texas. Now if she had let the subject be and not preached religion over and over to me, ild probaly still talk to her.

These are not isolated incodents.
Most every religious person i meet that i let know im not very religious trys to change me, while nearly every gay person (including lesbians) ive met does not try to change my feelings.

(I know this statement will draw flames, but what the hell).
Makes me wonder why religious people think they are more right when gay people have more respect for other people's feelings.

Tielee
P.S. And yes, i know this is long, but i wanted to rant so deal with it.