My application to appear on the Dream On, America TV show, Star Trek episode has made the first cut. The Los Angeles office of ABC has asked me for a video pitching my proposal. My dream proposal involves the Birth of the Federation II game development. To complete the video I would like some better resolution examples of the ship models developed so far. Please will the members that have built models send me a picture of one or two models they feel are the best? Also look for the models that are most easily recognizable as Star Trek. My email address is

Flanagan@cableone.net

PM's sent to notify the modelers.

Good luck with this, Kenneth, the whole community will be behind you!

wow. I remember having read something about this application thing from you some time earlier..this "Dream on" you mean the comedy series? I actually don't know that much of American TV productions anyway. Anyway's right..what exactly will this appearance (and the video you'll need to get in) be about? I mean will you play as an actor or what (sorry I just don't get it seemingly )?

Im worried about the legalities of this. Television appearence will force the holders of the IP of trek licence to respond. They will either allow or deny the project to continue.

Maybe im over worried about this but still.

About pics, erm i supose i can whip up the romulan bop as thats finished. Maybe the miranda from a perspective i duno as its still unfinished.

I might still have that video you made me of your untextured Miranda hidden somewhere in my backups Skeeter. I'll see if I can dig it out if you want, Skeeter.

I have to agree with Skeeter, publicly airing anything about the development of BotF2 is a sure-fire way to get this project shut down. The only reason we've survived this long is because we've kept a reasonably low profile. Either we've slipped under Paramount/CBS's radar, or they've left us alone because we're not that big.

I believe that under U.S. law, Paramount/CBS must continually enforce their trademarks if they wish to be able to continue enforcing them in the future. If it can be proven that they knew about this project and let it continue, they'll lose the ability to stop other people from using the Star Trek brand without permission, and you can be sure they won't let that happen. Our best bet is to stay relatively hidden .

right.

one question though, those bigger fanfilms currently in production should then all be licensed, hard to believe but well equally hard to believe they ever make it to the cinema

it would be surprising to me if paramount didn't know already of this project long ago...I mean they do have browsers and ppl screening the net don't they?

I mean we are in Wikipedia (at least linked) on their "own" Microprose Birth of the Federation game and at the latest when we got all our own Botf2 project wiki entry, everyone knows about us and it could be proven the other way round that paramount slept so it'd be better no one ever writes wikipedia entries about us following that logic..

MOE no its ok dont share that animation as it was very rough and it is for private use only.

About the trek fan made shows. Im sure they asked for permission and it was probably allowed to be given. Since they are popular and keep the trek image active.

The show will not appear in any search as it does not yet exist. It is in development and this will be one of the first season episodes. I will be extremely careful with reference to our BOTF II project. Paramount is onboard with ABCs TV project as you can see from startrek.com. Should I make the next cut I will have an opportunity to discuses the legal issue with ABC before talking to Paramount directly. I will be sure to get ABCs advice first.

The still shots or video will be used with a voice over by me and are only a small part of the whole pitch. This video will only be seen at ABC by their casting department and is not for public release. Please forgive me if I do not reveal more about my proposed project. This is a public site and other contestants can read our posts. Trust me for now that my proposal is going to be a powerful emotional appeal and worthy of broad support. The Birth of the Federation II is only one part of the package.

So if they vote me off the island and put out my torch, (as in Survivor,) lets not get discouraged. I do feel there is a reasonable chance this will fly. I will take reasonable precaution on the legal front and protect BOTF II. What I do now is for the greater glory of the Romulan Star Empire and you will just have to trust me. Thanks for your support.

yes you got my best wishes here.

(i just hope he knows about the old german saying, don't ever get the turkeys up flying...)

the best of luck to you!

For those concerned.
One might try contacting an Attorney for informaton rather then speculate yes? Make that a Copyright attorney.

Hmm Think on this, the Legal Eagles of the show "Dream On" will have gone over all this information with the same from Paramount, otherwise they would not have placed such an offer out to the public.

Also, BECAUSE what you are making IS FAN FIC, and not being sold for a profit, they wont mess with anyone.

Now how do I know this information? Easy. I look up Copyright Attorneys
on the net, find out which ones will offer advice for free and ask questions.
You will be amased at what they will tell you and even research for you!

I contacted many because of the story I was writing on Romulus. Since I had there attention, I also asked about the games, of course without mentioning who or where they are being made or developed. Nor did I mention this site.

Hope that helps calms many folks. If not try what I suggested.

*Sorry this is not a speech, but an alternative to being worried.*

yes sure it seems like the right thing to do to contact an attorney (maybe even contact and ask paramount itself for a permission but hm rather not maybe )

No offence here but of what I know from attorneys in general..well, let's say I don't very much trust 'em. Not when big companys (and maybe big money or a chance to get attention there) are involved. Who says an attorney has to do everything in favor for you? Here with us, they even don't get paid for success, no lol, they get paid for just sitting there and talking to you and going to the courtroom with ya (I know that cause I have an attorney in family).

Well as I said I doubt they don't know us already (I doubt they are not informed about anything related to Star Trek on the net, maybe not "realtime", but I'm sure they check in on those sites every now and then).

It's just that I tend to stick with mstrobel here, being guilty of something is mostly related to actively doing something and submitting a job application (even if it is for a fan project or Dream On TV Show appearance/plot writing) is something seriously actively done in my book. It would be nice, if kenneth just did his app without mentioning us, at least we wouldn't have done something actively then and would get the benefit of a doubt from every judge in the states but well I'm certainly overextending this issue a bit .

well, and also not that I do fear here anything, it maybe even just the kickstart we need to get real public attention, but as I said, this could heavily backfire, at least when jig's getting mail from certain legal departments demanding to close this site or remove the content totally from the game.

I'm just saying, the recent mistakes and terrible non-successes of star trek games from companies like Bethesda (this ain't a naval hospital ain't it? ) could inflame this issue a bit since big money is/was involved in those companies and it backfired, so they maybe angry about everything anyway..

Lol Mal,

I hear ya loud and clear! But I sure hope he gets to be on there! I would watch it. lol then if it was hmmmm bad... could at least pick on him for his acting skills being non canon! LOL

Just trying to look at the bright side!

Great news indeed...

I should really whip up some better renders of my models... but my situtation is messed up currently. IU?ll see what I cna do.

In the meantime, use whatever pics I posted on these forums - hell, there are even 3D max renders with effects (the wallpapers I made:D )

I have left the name of BOTF out of my proposal until I know more. The models will still be helpful though. To show the process of model design please also send a wire frame and an un textured version to demonstrate the process. Use three emails to the K on the file attachment can be high enough. I would like them by email attachment so the resolution of the picture is greater than what we see here. It is going into a DVD resolution video. It is my hope that this will end up promoting our BOTF II project but I will be careful until I am sure about the consequences from multiple sources.

The independent film maker I am using to film my application video had worked on the original Star Trek movie years ago. My experience in amateur performance should help me appear at ease on film. If my proposal has as much value as I feel it does we stand a good chance. It is not all about me and my proposal is just that. As in star trek a polymorphic crew works as a team as we here do. The parts are starting to fall into place. Thank you for your support.

sounds like we have to thank you in the future

hals-und beinbruch (hehe, a little german for "best wishes", don't try to put that words in an online translator, you won't get the meaning right for sure )

Sending some of the romulan bop, miranda, and k7 station. Hope there ok and big enough.

I don't know if I'll be able to make (actually to SEND) you any pics before monday...having trouble getting to the internet these days, but I'll see what I can do...

legalitys asiade good luck to you, from the legal perspective, as long as no mony is asked for we are nto breaking any copyright laws. i`ll do a few renders of my cardassian ships and post them for you.

Actually, we're breaking a lot of copyright laws in the United States.

indeed. ("fair-use" law aside here)

it's just bad manner not to ask the owner of a legal right to use their content and to promote it and distribute the resulting work as free for download like we do currently. It simply does not work that way. If we want to make a 100% legal game, than we should scrap star trek theme totally. It's the brain-work of gene roddenberry & co., period.

The wikipedia entry for star trek fan projects (films mainly) sums it up pretty clearly, it's "sublegal" meaning as long as they don't mind, you don't need to worry. Of course we know that already but if it ever comes to the mind of paramount to dry out fan project swamps, they can do it and they can do it quickly.

So far Paramount has shown just one sign of legal activity in this corner, and that letter is pretty old (from the mid 90's) and went to a former st site which copied a lot of "stuff" (don't remember what exactly that was) from paramount. The link to the letter can be found on that wiki-page I mentioned.

To sum it up, we all need a written permission of Paramount, if we wanna make sure, nothing could ever happen to free download. Of course, we as the developers don't necessarily need the game to be copied & downloaded around since we mainly do it for ourselves here but it certainly would be a loss if that case happened.

It's btw. not so much about the money, no, they start to loose money even when we don't charge any download fees (which we don't of course but that's not the point here!) at that very moment when they decide to make a commercial turn-based st game or anything else close to botf. At that point, we begin to become nasty competition for the big money sector and then we can pull some very warm clothes on cause it will get cold in here

of course, only if anything's planned on their side which I'm not so sure it's not cause of the recent failures (Legacy..) and if our 4 botf2s here really start to go off (in a certain amount of downloads and publicity) then I'd wonder if they don't either buy us off or just kick us in the legal butt

Don't take these brainstormings of mine too serious but maybe there's a dot or two in those remarks that aren't too far-fetched .

I wish you a lot of luck. You mentioned that Paramount was going to be around, and that is good. I'm POSITIVE that Paramount atleast knows about many of the fan-based movies that fly around the internet. Considering the current drought in Star Trek-related content, I don't see why Paramount would have any issues with this project, particularly since they make no attempts to restrict the other fan-based videos and other projects that do exist.

If anything, it's free Star Trek advertising for their new movie :p

Speaking of legalities, if Supremacy or any of the other games turn into a new internet craze, I'm hoping Paramount decides to make the lead developer a rather rich person. Throw in a development job to continue work on the game and include a small development team... and life is suddenly guuuuuuuuuuuuud :p

Yes it is possible that the party who holds the rights to create games out of startrek, will:

1. Leave us alone.
2. Make a deal.
3. Tell us to abandon this project (if needed a lawsuit).

Now atm i don't think we have to fear much of paramount or anyone. We have a low profile atm. There aren't any Tbs or similiar style of startrek games in the make. And paramount doesn't seem the company to close startrek projects quickly.

Thanks Skeeter. I got your file and will look at is soon. Monday is plenty of time Trashman. We will shoot the video in studio this coming week. Editing will follow that and this is where and when the stills pictures you send will be used. Just to be safe I assure you I will not use the name of BOTF II.

I spoke with a media relations officer for a well-known organization here in the US. They have given me permission to use their name and have granted me thier support in other ways. They have already been in touch with ABC and Paramount about this program. I cannot say more at this time. It does, however, give me the feeling of being swiped along by fait. Many elements are falling in place with blinding speed. I must reach into my sole for the courage to rise to this occasion. It could still all come to nothing but it does not feel like it now. If you wish it was you doing this be careful what you wish for. Thanks for your support.

Put it this way if Paramount did have a problem with it then surely they would be aware of the project already? I agree with Skeet

I am sudent of law and I have found this thread very interesting, In first place my knowledge is with in European continental law not Anglo Sakson (common law).

For purpose of this tread I v done little research in Digital Milennium Act, Net Act and related web pages!

This are results:


A copyright is not a single right but rather is a bundle of several rights, each of which is unique. These are the rights to reproduction, derivative works, distribution, public performance, public display, and digital transmission of sound recordings. The acquired right to utilize copyrighted material under one of these rights does not imply the right to use it under another (for example, purchasing a copy for home performance does not give the possessor the right to perform the material at a theater).


1) "If it doesn't have a copyright notice, it's not copyrighted."

This was true in the past, but today almost all major nations follow the Berne copyright convention. For example, in the USA, almost everything created privately and originally after April 1, 1989 is copyrighted and protected whether it has a notice or not.

2) "If I don't charge for it, it's not a violation."

False. Whether you charge can affect the damages awarded in court, but that's main difference under the law. It's still a violation if you give it away -- and there can still be serious damages if you hurt the commercial value of the property.

Price erosion occurs in two ways. First, if the infringing item is a close substitute for the
legitimate product, it effectively increases supply which, in turn, decreases price. Second, the counterfeit or pirated items may depress demand for the legitimate product either by reducing its
exclusivity or by tainting its reputation, thereby creating pressure to lower prices. The infringement thus affects not only the lost sales replaced by the counterfeit or pirated item, but also the sale price
of the legitimate items.

3) "If it's posted to Usenet it's in the public domain."

False. Nothing modern and creative is in the public domain anymore unless the owner explicitly puts it in the public domain. Explicitly, as in you have a note from the author/owner saying, "I grant this to the public domain." Those exact words or words very much like them.

It is important to remember that when it comes to the law, computers never make copies, only human beings make copies. Computers are given commands, not permission. Only people can be given permission.

4) "My posting was just fair use!"

The "fair use" exemption to (U.S.) copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's vital so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to appropriate other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations.
It should not harm the commercial value of the work -- in the sense of people no longer needing to buy it .

5) "If I make up my own stories, but base them on another work, my new work belongs to me."

False. U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called "derivative works" -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work.
Yes, that means almost all "fan fiction" is arguably a copyright violation. If you want to publish a story about Jim Kirk and Mr. Spock, you need Paramount's permission, plain and simple. Now, as it turns out, many, but not all holders of popular copyrights turn a blind eye to "fan fiction" or even subtly encourage it because it helps them. Make no mistake, however, that it is entirely up to them whether to do that.


6) "It doesn't hurt anybody -- in fact it's free advertising."

It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, ask them. Usually that's not too hard to do.


Intellectual properties are protected in same way in Europe to!

This is only a guideline for our game developers in Europe end U.S.A!

a student of law? funny, well first, that we have one here and second well I know as I said a lawyer and I can say, it's hard work no matter what people say ..

well to your findings, pretty much everything matches with my rather general remarks about it and to sum it up, we'd need to put some sort of letter together and simply ask those guys from Paramount if we can continue to use star trek content.

it's always a give and take in law matters (I know some stuff there as I mentioned ), well if they decide to drain us cause they want to make their own 4X-game they can do it now and I doubt much guys will notice on the net no matter how hard our protest then would be cause we'd be sued all personally then and that makes you keep your mouth shut real soon

as I said, we (the developers) don't need the public download, so we are ourselves in good cover under the fair-use and private-use act but well with nearly 500 downloads we still are but as you pointed out, if that thing (and I think if 3D combat would be implemented someday then the game reaches all kinds of players and can really hit moon ground to put it that way. I mean just look at the comments in our BotE Chat, ppl want 3D combat and a good one, auto-combat sucks for most graphic-"fixated" players ).

so it's either business as usual or we ask them or if the thing gets outta control (one thing that is on the one hand nice (and still far in the future if at all ) but on the other dangerous..) well then we'd have to pull the plug. I don't think we get sued cause there is no game currently announced from paramount which we would make competition on.

it's a thing to be seriously considered and since we got 2 playable versions out (ours with light AI soon, that's another big point towards completion), it maybe just about time to do so.

well, that's a thing to be discussed in private and will all major guys here together so I just throw that one in the round here.

thx for looking the stuff up btw. and well it's up to the devels now but I think legal stuff is too important to just sweep over even if it is strongly unsure if our games really will "go off" someday. I mean just look at botf, wasn't much of a success back then, I mean it hasn't drawn the money out of the teenies' pockets, it's a game for the more serious strategy guys amongst us and they may be not significant enough in numbers


P.S.: I don't think we should wait with that until there is publicity if at all, I mean writing to them could lead into sudden closure demand of the whole afc, so that's really to be strongly considered. On the other hand, if they are against this all here it's better we know it now than later when much more (economic..) damage's done which adds up to the lawsuit.

Just my opinion: Get the answer from Paramount now, get their blessing. It would be a quick but painful end (if it's one ).

Malvoisin,

You make a strong point! well several of you do.

Perhaps it might be wise if we or I should say the Devs, have someone who knows how to write in a corporate (legal) format, to submit this information to Paramount. That way, at least all the I's would be dotted and the "T"'s would be crossed.

I'm just a game player, with no intent other then playing a better game, as most of us are.

This is just an idea.

of course.

it's in some ways nuts what we do here. We think they don't do us any harm trusting on the goodwill of them and the bad press they would face if they decide to dry us down publicly.

That is a strong point too, don't wanna doubt that.

BUT we or better the other afc site (this domain for god's sake ) serves an illegal (it is, there is no way around) copy of botf1 and well that's ok as long as we don't reach a critical mass here but Zeleni made a good point with the game companies.
As long as jig serves that botf iso we better don't say anything about legalities here ... and don't write letters for that matter

Even if hasbro (a living and healthy company with the full rights on botf!!) does not say anything now cause it's simply not worth it considering our small community here, they will certainly if they smell business in here. Maybe they arrange with us and let us cheaply make a sequel to their botf for them and buy us off with a neat small sum (small for them compared to the costs of making a botf2 on their own) but maybe not.

Too much maybes for me here

If I were a devel, I'd be quick as hell and get hasbro and paramount to support me (who says one cannot arrange something like I said before?). It's all about getting into business. I don't think this communism idea of making it all for free will be appealing for them, I mean no I don't want to charge money, no that be certain death here in many aspects, but I think you have to look the other way round on this, they might wanna and well they got all the right to enforce their wish.

well since I am no devel, that's just my opinion but I think to just sit and wait for anything to happen may get hard on the devels later cause nobody will help em when they get civil lawsuits here I fear...

just one more thing, better to know how they see us now than later, could get troubling then. Problem's clear, site could be forced to close down, but well if they don't want us, they can just go to hell in my opinion..