Romulans have Tal Shiar, Cardas have Obsidian Order!

In all Star Trek games name for UFP intelligence is Starfleet Intel!

Why? When there is SECTION 31!


Its operating authority stems from an obscure provision of the Starfleet charter — Article 14, Section 31, from which its name is derived — that makes allowances for "bending the rules" during times of extraordinary threats (ENT: "Affliction"). While the original intent may have been to give Starfleet personnel some leeway when it comes to unusual or extreme circumstances, some Federation Council and Starfleet officials have taken it a step further and secretly created a standing organization able to respond to any threat, preemptively if need be. Section 31 is similar to Romulan Tal Shiar or Cardassian Obsidian Order in that it operates covertly. Unlike its alien counterparts, however, few Federation citizens know of its existence.

Source- Wikipedia

Its maybe time to fix this historical bug in ST Supremacy?

I don't know maybe it's because the tal'shiar and the obsidian order is so well-known to everyone (inside the star trek universe(!)) like the cia and the fbi are today, whereas the section 31 is more like an obscure one like the (originally bavarian lol) illuminati and kinds of them.

so it might not be a good idea to put them on the same spot but maybe as an additional really "hidden" special elite intel (could be inside the fed intel menu and also special groups of the other races' intel in their menus), why not, yes.

That would be nice- elite intelligence!

Section 31 is cruel and harsh in operations just like Obsidian or Tal!

In DS9 Setion wanted to recruit Julian Bashir (enhanched abilities) but he refuses (moral idealist-asshole)! Secton is UFP-s other side of face!

sure it'd be nice. but just a few words on this.. the more nice things we yearn to implement the more it comes clear that the AI programming needed to make the extras not only work but work flawlessly and somewhat inexploitable for a human player is huge.
it seems like we have to disable some features for the singleplayer mode.

that's just the case with all "good" ideas as this one surely is, only the fittest/most fitting will survive in the end..

I was aiming only to change name Starfleet Int. to Section 31 and nothing more thats it..

I think that diplomacy and intelligence were weakest spot in orginal botf, so in supremacy is needed totaly new approach....

sure.

the only thing I missed was the option to point out a specific target for sabotage or a specific system to get intel on.

I think with that, most needs are met.

What was lacking in BOTF in terms of intelligence was the fact that you could not do too much. You just allocated a few points to sabotage the Fergies and that was it. What we need is to be able to pick targets as Malvoisin says, to decide where our intel resources have to be spent: I never liked that I put 99% to sabotage the Klingons so that they would destroy some learning halls in who knows which system, even though I set it as a military operation.

And regarding the name of UFP's intel service...Well, I really think the name is not going to make any difference, besides you can later mod that in for yourself. However, if you'd ask me to choose, I'd say go with Starfleet Intelligence, and put section 31 as a random event:

A high raking senator of the Romulan Star Empire has died in a shuttlecraft accident while returning from a diplomatic mission. This senator was head to the senate's wing which favoured a war agains us. Without him, it is likely that the Romulans will maintain present relations with us.

Dunno, something like that. (IF you put section 31 in, that's just an example as to how I see it)

You got rihgt (Janusi,Molvaisin)!

Intelligence report must be of material value for player, something he can use in warfare tactics! Its pointless for intel to be restricted only for stealing few bites of data or destroying one automated farm. Efficient intel report contains-

1. Current location of strongest AI/enemy fleet and number of ships (before- location of one ship)

2. Current status of AI/enemy in tech tree - wep 5, prop 4 bio tech 5
(before- only one field)

3. Current best type or class of AI/enemy ship
(before- none)

Now with these knowledge from military espionage you can form best strategy to attack!

I've only skimmed this thread, (Coz i'm in work hehe) but I posted an idea a loooong time ago about possibly having some sort of "Intel random events".

Basically, you would get a message onscreen saying a target of opportunity has been noted within our enemies. If we were to send x credits, x resources, and x crew towards it, that weakness could be exploited.

The actual amount of resources you throw at it would be completely up to you - the amounts displayed would be a guidline amount that would ensure a moderate amount of success, but the more you throw, the higher the chances of success, and the greater the reward. Alternatively you could just ignore it - and nothing would happen. Section 31 may even try to do it without your help!

Now obviously we are talking about the Federation here - surely the Ferengi accountants would notice that resources are missing? And that's my point. The more you send, the greater the chances of success - but also the greater the chances of discovery within your own organization!

Being discovered would have all sorts of devastating effects - lowered morale, domestic terrorism, reduced diplomatic ratings, the enemy finding out about what you did, and so on.

I have already included intel random events in the random events - defectors, spies captured, hacked computer networks, and so on, but these could easily be modified to include this. What do people think?

Is this a step too far? Is this straying too much from canon Trek? Should Section 31 really be utilised in the game(s)?

Or is it not going far enough? Should this become a standard part of your Intel services? Should you be able to directly control the amount of funding they get? What about the other races? Will they also get similar messages, or should Federation Intel be weak and this be used to supplement it?

no of course not. they should remain a deep mystery within the game where rumours only exist of 'em

I think the random thing is good but it'll be very random if you know what i mean..



no control over funding or use there. they simply act on their own and sometimes even against yourself. You'll see hints on sabotage acts in the ingame-text where some remarks about a possible section 31 involvement (also maybe with jpg picture as "proof") will be written so the user knows they might be getting angry.

I see them more as a terror organisation, either for you or for the enemy (btw. you can influence this by a donation to the organisation surely )

Well from my digs through Trek history ( which is getting larger by the day)
Early TOS, TNG, I did not find any ref to Section 31. (Not to say that it is not there) My understanding is They (stupid wanna be writers) tossed it in. I cannot find a true reference to say it is canon.

Actually to Clairify, there were 3 different type of intel/security for the Romulan Empire before the Tal-Shiar. A feint history shows that the last of one of these agents was killed by Capt Kirk during the Ep where he stole the cloaking device. (This operator was in deep cover) What the names were of these intels is not known. Nor the true name of the Agent. I'm doing my best to get verification for canon sake, but so far to no avail.

Why am I rambling on about this? Well There are many (as discussed before in other threads) who are so touchy about canon, that accuracy is of utmost importance. (Then again Mr Roddenberry made statements about canon being of no real importance) So what do we follow?

Things to think on I guess!

I'm happy to accept either Section 31 or regular SF Intelligence.

[Quote] Eon

A high raking senator of the Romulan Star Empire has died in a shuttlecraft accident while returning from a diplomatic mission. This senator was head to the senate's wing which favoured a war agains us. Without him, it is likely that the Romulans will maintain present relations with us. [End Quote]

Excellent example, only one question. ( this is for funs sake ) Which Senate was this diplomat with? There are two Senates, the Upper and lower
both are there to balance each other, and to keep the Praetor in line.

The Death of a diplomat would not be investigated by the Tal. As they would view this as "Not thier concern" due to seperation and feeling of "despise" they carry for the Senates . Now had this occured within Romulan Space, they "might investigate, however the information they gather would not be shared with the remaining Senate or Preator, They would in that instance, take correct action (possably) leaving tell tell signs of a outside majors for the Naval investigators to find then pass along to the Senate for them to do the saber rattlings..


Just a little information to share with you all. Not sure if it means anything to the Devs or others.

You got right! They should remain a deep mystery within the game...
but when occurs it should be a big, major blast for enemy, something like this... stealing complete tech field, destroying 10 ships, killing the president ( huge moral penalty ) etc.

Lots of options and afterward bunch of angry players!!


and
Section 31 is canon winterhawk, check st encyclopedia

I sure will. I think I have it but am not sure, however I will Google it and take a good look. It would be a good source for my book on Romulans.

Thanks....

I don't know too much about Romulans goverment's structure (nor of any other empire for that matter). The example I gave was just so that you guys could see what I meant when I said that Section 31 should be a random event.
As stated in the episodes, Section 31 is a rogue organization, created by members of the federation yes, which "protects" the federation yes, but which is not under control of the federation, as Starfleet or the MACOs for example.
Because of that, there would be no sense in having control over Section 31 if you are playing as the Omnipotent Master of the Federation (I'd say president, but he surely does not deal with ship's assignments and research stuff every day )

Besides, it would add that feeling of mistery and lack of control that you could feel on those DS9 eps (well, at least those of us who enjoyed those episodes).

Alrighty, I got some canon info on Section 31.

It was "made at the time of the Federation charter. It started as an extension of Starfleet Intel, but was left to its own vices so to speak, so it now answers to no one, and operates at a whim basis. (DS-9)

So both would be correct to have as they are really seperate. But for now SF-Intel could be started for now and Section 31 could be added later so as to not slow the progress of the game building down..

Just a thought.

You spek true Winter, but it s only to MStrobel to implement Section 31!

Including Section to Feds will give them great adventage in comparation to other powers, so decreasing bonus of SF intel to 10% and giving back bonus with Section 31 , 10% + 15% =25%

One thing more, not only Feds have special Structures and Bodys!



Romulan Continuing Committee

The Continuing Committee was one of the highest governing bodies of the Romulan Star Empire. Headed by the praetor, the Committee was comprised of members of the Romulan Senate as well as other high-ranking officials such as the chairman of the Tal Shiar (usually a given, but not guaranteed). One of the Committee's duties is the confirmation of a new praetor. The Committee also serves as a court when criminal charges are brought against members of the Senate.

In 2375 Senator Cretak and Chairman Koval were both vying for an open seat on the Committee. Koval was given the seat after a Section 31 plot eliminated Cretak from consideration. (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges")
It was left unclear exactly what relation the Continuing Committee had to the Romulan Senate. The Committee seemed to be a smaller body than the Senate (seen in Star Trek Nemesis), so perhaps it was a more powerful, executive-type committee that handled important affairs of the Empire, fulfilling a function similar to that of a cabinet or a presidium. Or perhaps it functions like a United States Senate subcommittee, like the powerful Committee on Armed Services.

EVERY empire would have different groups along these lines. Galactic empires are simply too large for a single person to control all by him/her/itself (realistically).

So groups like these would always exist for every empire. However, this "committee" cannot serve any purpose inside the game. It offers nothing gameplay wise.

As for Section 13, it DEFINITELY needs to be a random event. Otherwise, if Section 13 was listed as the inteligence branch of the Federation, it would assume that the Federation has control over the group (which it doesn't) and that it sends information to Federation leaders (which it usually doesn't) and would require Federation assets such as agents and ships to carry out it's missions (which it does not require as they have their own resources... somehow).

The Tal Shiar (excuse my poor Romulan spelling) is actually more involved in the Romulan government than Section 13. Thus, having the Tal Shiar as part of the Romulan government makes plenty of sense. Assuming that the Romulan Continuing Committee is canon, that shows proof that the Tal Shiar is directly involved in the running of the Romulan government.

Section 13 enjoys no such thing... unless it is entirely covert (which is possible... but then... you wouldn't know that being the "president" of the Federation... unless you were, in fact, a Section 13 agent. DUN-DUN DUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!).

Having established why Section 13 needs to be seperate from the Federation's intelligence branch, here are some possible thoughts:

If there is a canon event related to Section 13 that would have likely been reported to Federation leadership, then I suggest duplicating it as much as possible and inserting it into the game as a random event with as much details as possible. For example, assassiniating a senate hopeful in an enemy empire could actually improve Federation relations (or make them worse of war is the goal of Section 13).

The problem with a Section 13 random event is that it will likely help or hurt only a specific empire. For example, if a Section 13 assassination of a politician from another empire would improve Federation relations, this clearly helps the Federation but has no impact on any other empire. There needs to be other random events for the other empires that can help them or hurt them accordingly to maintain a sense of balance.

For the Romulans, for example, a rogue Tal Shiar agent could do something of his or her own choosing. This would give the Romulans a Section 13-like ability that they have no direct control over.

What do you think?

I can agree on Section 31 (lol Azh = 13) being a random event. As it is we only see it in DS 9 , at least that I am aware of.

You all need to correct me here but the only one I have seen (active) in canon was tha Tal. Even though the Obsidian Order is mentioned we do not see them working. (sadly)

Theres a lot to think hard on with this bit.