No, it does make sense that you should also have building requirements for at least some structures.

Using your energy and Subatomic Simulator example, Azhdeen, it isn't just about the overall energy level you have - it's how you can control and store it. Yes, newer generators are able to produce more energy, but if they can't channel that extra energy safely and efficiently into batteries or the power network, there isn't any point in producing that extra energy in the first place. Doing so is hugely wasteful and potentially dangerous.

A system like Subatomic Simulators would require very precise and constant levels of energy. Even a tiny blip could affect your results - or even blow your containment fields!

IF we have building prerequisites, we will need to go through the entire list and decide *what* needs them, and *what* those prerequisites will be. Of course, that is if we decide it is a good idea. I'm all for it.

We could do some and/or's for the special structures. For example taken from my BotF1 gameplay....

When wind turbines or charge collectors are available, I buy them outright to get a jump on production (I'm sure most people do). Then I can install a bunch of different things, particularly food buildings like replicators, sometimes a shipyard, and maybe even the subatomics if I have both turbines and collectors before I even think about building a replicator, reactor, or a farm.

The required building proposal (as opposed to required technology) would make this more difficult or impossible (I'm sure replicators wouldn't require a specific building, but the simulators... and possibly the shipyard might, even if they're low requirements.)

I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, though. It would essentially encourage a more normal pattern of colony growth rather then buying a slew of special buildings now and then worry about the actual infrastructure later. I could go either way on the idea. This should definitely put a stop to the practice of buying aquafarms -> collectors -> turbines -> replicators -> shipyard -> research/intel special -> whatever.

Would we want to require a certain number of buildings to be constructed? If so, specifying a specific number of buildings would be a legitmate discussion to flesh out the idea a bit better. In relation to this, how would you handle systems that have a very low max population? Or would the buildings simply need to be built and not necessarily used... which would make low pop systems a nonissue now that I think of it. I often times shutdown my replicators and devote entire systems to intel or research so.... Yeah, now I'm thinking outloud and rambling, heh.

If an empire has the tech to give new colony a higher likelihood of surviving, I don't think it would allow itself to be hampered by how many or what type of buildings are there. "No, I'm sorry but you can't have an aquaculture farm here: you don't have the construction facilities to build it." No society would do this to their members... Um... In general, that is.

In Star Wars Rebellion -- another game of this era and genre I spent way too much time playing -- you could manufacture facilities and then ship them to other planets. This allowed a new colony to have a good construction facility without needing to go through the painful process of constant upgrades. Of course, you had to wait for it to be constructed and then wait for it to arrive, which could also be painful. BotF1 dealt with this by allowing you to buy the facility and not needing the new colony to struggle to *build* an infrastructure before it could have an infrastructure. IMHO, this was a good kludge considering the limitations and flavor of the game. I prefer to keep the BotF1 approach. However, one or the other method should be used for BotF2: dont make me build a new society from scratch every time I goto a new planet.

If your empire has the understanding to build it, it has the knowledge to place it in the wilderness and make it work within the limits of colonization. Again, only IMHO.

Next topic.

This month's scientific american had a reader comment in the front which correctly pointed out that the adding of computer controls to the construction facilities of the modern world constituted a second industrial revolution. No study or subject is an island unto itself.

I sympathize with the notion of researching a single subject to upgrade to the next step in a facility: fab 11 to fab 12. In BotF1, this exactly how I go up the ladder... Indeed, I figure out what facility, special building or, most likely, ship I want next and pool my research to get it. And you'll notice, for the most part, you can do that with most upgrades to most facilities... Still, I stand by my assertion that once in a while an upgrade should require more than one type of research step to build.

I'm glad to see interest. I'm glad to engage in these conversations again. Thank you.

The only middle ground that I can see would be to always make the advanced buildings buyable - but at a vastly increased cost if you don't have the prerequisites. This additional cost could be in credits, construction time, resources, or a combination of all three.

Think about it - you may have a hammer and two screwdrivers, but you might need to chop some wood. If you have a bit of metal and a stick, you could use the hammer to make an axe.

Obviously that would take time and metal to make the axe though. But thats where the extra costs come into play. The increased construction time (Compared to an instant build) also serves as a limiter for large, economically powerful empires - even if they can afford to buy everything, it'll still take time to build.

Now you're probably thinking of the one major change that this suggests - you're paying for it, but it would still take time to build!

We've discussed in the past whether you should be able to have instant-builds or simply pay to increase the construction rate, and I believe that we decided that increasing the construction rate would be more realistic.

My idea would simply be an extension of this - you would be paying to provide low-tech tools that are able to do the job, albeit much more slowly, more wastefully, or perhaps even more dangerously.

In fact, the danger side would lead on from the point I made in my last post with the energy - if you're using low-tech or low-quality construction materials or tools, surely there would be an associated risk?

If events were included, such as collapsed buildings, power plant explosions, floods, blackouts, and so on, we could include a system to show this. More advanced buildings would have a lower risk of such events happening.

Of course, this would mean the implementation of a random event system...oh wait...

It would also mean that each building would need another statistic - a damage rate or something. More stats mean more things for the game to keep track of though. And more things to keep track of means slower games.

It might be an interesting idea to discuss, but i'm probably going too far with it. Oh well, it can always be implemented in BOTF5, as we used to always say about fun but far-fetched ideas...

I like the way you keep mentioning my Bimmer, but I'm trying not to think about that too much, since I still have to wait 6-7 weeks for it to arrive. It's driving me crazy .

You do, however, raise an interesting point. However, I'm still on the fence about the idea, as I'm not yet convinced that it would be a wise decision from a gameplay perspective. It would certainly be more realistic, yes, but this is a game we're talking about, and realism must often be sacrificed for the sake of fun. In games, tedium = bad.

My current opinion, for what it's worth (a lot ), is that I'm in favor of revising the tech requirements of some of the buildings and facilities to make them more sensible (in line with ZDarby's original argument), and seeing how things go from there. If, after further playtesting, it become apparent that something else needs to be done, we can start considering other options.

We weren't suggesting that ALL buildings would have requirements - only buildings that quite obviously need them, (Back to the Subatomic Simulators example) or perhaps even the minor race structures. It's a bit boring that you can build their structures *just* because you own their planet.

As for the randoms idea, it was basically low level buildings would be more prone to damage for whatever reason, lets say an Earthquake. Newer buildings would be more resistant to such damage, so less prone to random events.

Azhdeen suggested that one way to do this was to give buildings "hit points" and that newer buildings would have more hit points than older ones. This stat wouldn't be visible to the player, it would be a programming thing (Unless we wanted it visible ) that would only be used when a random event occured. (Or maybe even when the planet is attacked)

Obviously any decision is down to you, but I like it.

I guess which ever beneifits gameplay wins out, reality or science fiction come second.

Hmm...that is definitely worth thinking about. Why do we have to follow the BOTF1 system simply because it was the way it was done? This is BOTF2 afterall - if we think something needs changing or updating we can do it!

I definitely like the idea of variable costs though. If you could choose to build a type 9 Plasma reactor when you've only got type 1's installed, you could be allowed to upgrade - but at a VASTLY overpriced cost.

The cost would be dependant on the difference between level upgrades, (Upgrading type 1 to type 9 would obviously cost more than upgrading type 1 to type 3 for example) the available planetary resources and production/construction buildings, (If you've got a Mining Corps for example, these resources could be used to augment the available resources to reduce the upgrade cost) and could *possibly* even be dependant on the planet type. (Class M planets would be the easiest to build on due to the relatively stable conditions, Oceanic planets would be prone to floods and hurricanes, Jungle planets would need to have the Jungle cleared first, but could potentially be resource-rich, Volcanic planets would be prone to Earthquakes etc, Desert planets would be prone to sandstorms but could potentially be mineral rich, and Arctic or Rogue planets would have low construction rates due to difficult transportation and the risk of Blizzards) and a random factor just to make things a bit different.

That should be enough to think about in one post.

Eh, I realize that new colonies are going to start with up to date support structures. Enter this very possible example (which is generalized a bit):

I started a game at technology level 1. After a few turns, I've colonized a system. In order to build up it's ability to produce, I concentrate on farms and fabricators. Within a turn or two of colonization, I, essentially, have level 2 technology in all areas.

As the game is progressing, I'm still developing farms and fabricators for this colony. I might try to upgrade them as I go along. Let's say... I finally have all the farms and fabricators I could want by the time I hit level 3 technology. So I upgrade them to bring them current, and then start building and upgrading energy reactors (which are still type 1's.) Once that is done, I'm ready to build some support structures. A shipyard, dilithium refinery if applicable... whatever. Then... I start cranking out ships like crazy. The Klingons have made themselves known and are eager for some "aggressive negotiations". I need ships for the slaughter.

Fast forward the game a bit and throw in a Klingon peace treaty and a couple extra technology levels, I now re-examine the status of my systems. Oh look, some of them are out of date. But hey! I can build a couple special buildings, including one dealing with research. Oh, wait; this colony doesn't have any research buildings yet (or, if it starts with one, it's still type 1).

I'm just pulling this example out of no where, really. But this was the general purpose of the idea: to create some reasonable support structures to support (and not just necessarily build) these unique buildings so that they may operate properly.

Considering some of the other changes that have been made, this is probably rather minor in the grand scheme of things.

@ Azhdeen:
I actually agree with your analysis: a chemical generator, for example, would need an incredible amount of modifications to make it run a holographic array, or whatever. And only *vast* amounts of money could make it happen.

It wasn't that I disagreed with your point of view that I was arguing against it. It was that, if a colony *starts* at level 1 every single time, then a player has to go from level 1 to whatever level is current for the rest of the empire (2 to 12). I found this exceptionally tedious and annoying in BotF1; and the only thing that made it bearable was that I could simply buy my way to an acceptable level, either through upgrades or special structures.

If a new colony got tech that was only 2 to 3 levels behind the rest of the empire, than I'd fully support the idea of infrastructure requirements for special structures.

@ MOE:
Yes. Precisely what I wanted to say.

@ mstrobel: (*Extremely* off-topic)
I, too, have ADHD and find reading long posts excruciating. However, I use ReadPlease to convert these long texts to speech. I can read about twice as fast as it can, my retention is about 2/3 as good if I read text with my own eyes and it's useless for more technical texts. But I find I can concentrate on the spoken word about six times longer (13 hours instead of 2) than I can the written word. This is a *big* pay-off and is true for most circumstances.

ReadPlease Plus is expensive ($60) but is much worth it compared to the free version. I find I *never* use AT&T Natural Voices, even though I have some: they take too long to pronounce the words and the whole point (for me) is to go at blistering speeds. (I spend all my time at speed 7-10 using microsoft's 'Mary'... And there are times when 10 is tediously slow.)

There are open source text-to-speach programs as well, though I never spent enough time to make them work properly. I would actually recommend taking this route first, if you have the patience.

I made an error in my tech-tree suggestions for energy facilities. The error and correction should be obvious to anyone who pays attention, still I though I'd post the correction

Type 1 Fusion -- 1,1,1,1,1,1
Type 2 Fusion -- 1,2,2,2,1,2
Type 3 Fusion -- 2,3,3,3,1,2
Type A Plasma -- 2,4,4,4,3,3
Type B Plasma -- 3,4,4,5,4,4
Type C Plasma -- 3,5,5,6,4,4
Type D Plasma -- 4,6,6,7,4,5
Type E Plasma -- 4,7,7,8,5,6
Type F Plasma -- 6,8,8,9,6,8
Type G Plasma -- 6,9,9,10,8,9
Type H Plasma -- 8,10,10,11,9,10
Type I Plasma -- 9,11,11,12,11,11

As before, the key is:
facility - bio, comp, const, enegy, prop, weap

I didn't think of it as a mistake, ZDarby - I thought it was just a simplification.

...

There's a text-to-speech function in . The program is free, and I err...know a way around the trial. *No more mentioning on the forums for fear of Jigalypuff retribution*

The option is under Tools -> Text To Speech.

The program doesn't come with voices pre-installed though. If you need some, there are download links

The voices include Microsoft Sam, Microsoft Mary, Microsoft Mike, (All three as normal, in space, and telephone effects) Whisper, and Robosoft 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

Glad this thread hasn't died - again.

Perhaps having specialised systems could be something worth considering - specialised systems would bring certain bonuses - but would obviously give certain disadvantages as well. In respect to a research one, defense would obviously be an issue - and not just militarily. Such systems would be a magnet for spies and saboteurs...

I certainly think that paying for an upgrade should cost a significant premium though. You will have to pay your workers, buy/mine/manufacture the resources, get the necessary energy, and so on. Such things are not simple or easy matters. They require time, effort, and planning. And taking all those workers and whatnot from research, counterespionage, and so on will obviously impact your Empire. The cost will obviously worth it in the long run, however.

Hit points would definitely be an easy way to calculate damage etc. in planetary attacks, random events, and so on. Your idea of tying this in with the build costs makes sense - but would require balancing. Then there is the issue of the fact that later buildings have in the region of thousands of construction cost points - is this realistic? Do the ships have that much defense? I doubt it. We'll have to ask Dafedz to sort all that out - IF we decide on it.

We could quite easily have other requirements for such special buildings - such as having x number of working science labs. Without the other labs actively workin to support the special structure with data collection, analysis, and whatnot, the extra equipment of the new structure would be wasted.

Having requirements like this would also ensure that you don't just pick a random, non-critical, otherwise useless system for such a special purpose - it has to already have a support network and academics to run the thing. Similar structures in other areas would be the same. We could perhaps even simply adapt some of the other already-existing structures in the database for this purpose...

I noted that some minor races have Freighter ships. This is a ship type not seen in the Major races. Who will we be using freighters that we can only control when we assimilate the right minor race?