Since intel implementation is on the agenda right now, I'd like to ask you ppl for your opinion on that matter.

First off two questions:

1. Should intel points be storable or handled like in botf where there was no storage?

2. Does an espionage mission have to precede any sabotage attempt with regards to having a target at all?
In other words do targets have to be "investigated" first before they appear in a list of possible sabotage targets?

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Answer 1: I don't really think that Intel points should be storable like "food" or similar. The original BotF system for handling points is OK by me.

If there is a change from the original BotF formula I would suggest that anything that would reduce your Intel / Espionage / etc. totals take effect at the end of your turn. [I.E. if you scrap an Intel special building your intel should go down as soon as you hit the "end turn" button]

HOWEVER anything that would tend to increase your intel should not take effect immediately. For example lets say that all of your class 9 intel buildings are totally unstaffed [In effect Intel 0]. Now you decide you want to staff them. You shouldn't go to 100% effectiveness immediately. I would say that you should get 10% of that increase each turn until [10 turns later] you realize the full effect.

The reasoning behind this is that I suspect Intel networks could decay fairly quickly. In addition I don't believe that you should be able to rebuild or create new intel networks instantly ... it should take years [10 turns?]

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Answer 2: I'm of two minds on this particular issue.

I think that I'm leaning towards keeping Espionage totally seperate from Sabotage. In my mind I like to keep the purity of Espionage giving you information only. I am, of course, assuming that a critical part of sabotage is an initial espionage phase to locate targets of opportunity.

I'm not even sure though if its a good idea to be able to choose your targets. Maybe we should keep sabotage mostly random. I.E. you can choose between general / economic / political / military sabotage but not select specific targets.

Basically I'm worried about the balance considerations more than anything else. The more you can choose the higher the possibility of being able to break something in an unexpected manner.

------ On the other hand the idea of using espionage to help identify targets of opportunity for your sabotage sounds BEAUTIFUL on paper. I can't even argue that it sounds cool. I'm concerned that it would be a balance nightmare though ....

Intel is about my favorite part of the games, but it is tricky to make it playable and somewhat realistic.

Espionage and sabotage, in my mind, are two different areas, connected but not necessarily the same thing. Investigating a research facility to see what you can get and sabotaging it to prevent your enemy from getting anything are two different things, although they can be tied together. I like the idea of targeting, though, as it lets you use your intel forces to support your actual goal as you would in "real life." Of course, I agree with Alamar that specific targeting could prove disastrous in balancing. Maybe a compromise, you can target major items (kill the leader/hero, sabotage the flagship, weaken planetary defenses of a system you have ships in/near, sabotage fleets of 20+ ships, sabotage/investigate production at major fleet yards, etc.) but something like "steal ships" would be directed vaguely against "targets of opportunity" within the empire.

If you really, truly want to do targeted sabotage against a specific place, ship, planet, or whatever, maybe a designated "spy" unit could be created from the barracks and sent to the location, gaining experience with each successful operation? I'm not sure how that would work, or if it would even be possible, but it's a thought I figured I'd throw out. Feel free to dismiss it out of hand if it's just plain implausible.

in botf I if you went to sabotage in the research area, after a couple turns you might receive a report stating that one of your agents stole designs for some propulsion project or whatever, increasing your own propulsion research. that is not sabotage to me, but mostly espionage as I see it. So, when it come to stealing information, research knowledge and whatever, it should be by espionage. Sabotage should deal with destruction, assasinations, ship stealing, station damaging, races' relationships damaged, etc.

Intel-related request: In BotF [and in the discussion here so far] we see Intel used to steal info / steal property / destroy property / harm diplomatic relations between other powers / etc.

I would like to see an addtional use for Intel .... I'd like to be able to choose to use my Intel in order to improve relations with other powers as the primary goal instead of "harming" another Empire as the primary goal.

For example lets say that I'm the Coalition and I'm at war with the Omega Alliance. Lets also say that the Rotharians & Omegans have a non-agression pact. It would be nice if I could use my intel to improve relations with the Rotharians to the point where they would have to come to the aid of their friends [with a war pact against the Omegans]. If needed planting evidence that the Omegans already had or was about to perform an "act of war" would also be acceptable assuming that this made the Rotharians a stong ally against the Omegans in the war effort.

Another example would be let's say I'm the Rotharians and I've met the Tuc. Lets also say the Heyoun have also met the Tuc. It would be nice if there were intel options to get the Tuc to LIKE my empire more [as opposed to sending them "gifts" of credits]. For example lets say that my empire "discovers" convincing evidence that the Andromedans [a close neighbor of Tuc] are planning an attack and we of course turn that information over to the Tuc who in turn are very grateful for this ..... Heck even gaining influence over the right elected officials of Tuc / the media / etc. may be methods of improving relations through Intel while not necessarily having to harm another Empire per-se.

Inaugural post, woohoo.

I was a big fan of intel while playing the Rotharians in BotF. When I was at war with one of the other empires, I'd get a kick out of sabotaging orbital defences before sending in the troops. Made the entire effort a lot cheaper in the long run, I think.

1. Should intel points be storable or handled like in botf? Storing food for emergencies such as the destruction of farms by sabotage or natural catastrophe is a good idea, but it doesn't translate the same way to intelligence. Perhaps if we had to spend intel points...

2. Does an espionage mission have to precede any sabotage attempt with regards to having a target at all? Not a requirement, a buff. It's possible to jump in blind and sabotage something, but some preceding espionage should increase the rate of success. Only if both are targeted at the same field, of course; you can't go spy on agriculture and then expect it to help you blow up a military installation.

Edited to add: Just expanded on that thought. Perhaps espionage before sabotage could entitle you to pick a specific target? If you look before you leap, you can choose to steal particular research or blow up a particular installation.

The intel system is implemented in the way you want it. You can store intel points, you can sabotage without espionage and you can sabotage a special target, if you spy it before. I think the intel system is really cool. You are able to win a game with the use of intel.

okay, its probably too late for this, but some civ games have a good way to handle intel that would be cool to implement:

lets say you "spend" intel points(or just credits) to put an operative(or establish a network) in the Rotharius system, which has a relatively high rate of success depending on how good their internal security is. Then this operative is essentially a sleeper until you choose a mission for them(ie. conduct espionage, sabotage orbital defenses, etc.) in that specific system(possibly costing money or intel points).

If he succeeds, then he stays under cover(unless he steals a ship or something) and you can use him again, but each mission runs the risk of the operative being discovered.

So basically if you want to spy on or disrupt an enemy system, you have to first put an operative in it, which should be relatively easy.

Likewise, if say the Rotharians suspect that there is an agent on Rotharius, or delta vega(real system?) they can spend money/intel points to conduct counter-intelligence in that system, with maybe a 50-75% chance of success of rooting out enemy spies.

This way you can target specific enemy systems for espionage, as well as guard your own specific systems that you're worried about. Not only is this more realistic, but it would add a whole new dynamic to the game rather than just "blind" intelligence missions.

As long as the costs of rooting out enemy spies isn't ridiculously cheap, this would still make intel very effective; it would actually be even more effective because you could conduct specific missions on specific planets. I can't tell you how annoyed I got in BOTF when my spies uncovered completely useless information about systems I didn't care about. "oh no! mintaka has a bunker network!"

One last note: stealing enemy ships should be (at the very least) extremely rare. Not only would it be near impossible for an agent to seize an entire ship in deep space and pilot it home, but using the original BOTF model the Cartare could seize 3-4 ships a TURN against the Coalition, making the game completely unbalanced.

good idea. We do actually have a system implemented where you can "spend" intel points and locate your targets for espionage. That countermeasure and reuse of spent points thing I am not sure, puste you thought of that?