Lurking mode off...

GREAT job with the BOTE demo - congrats! Just wanted to offer some help. Alas, I'm totally inept in graphics, but here are some areas I'm strong in:

- Space science, AI, and simulations (it's my job, w/ NASA and SwRI)

- Software integration and coding in C & C++ (was my job for 15 yrs at Bell Labs)

- Writing (my hobby: )

- Testing (my brother and a friend have BOTF'ed multiplayer for years, and I've played most other space strategy games too, seeing the good, the bad, and the very very ugly)

- Real space settlement research (http://www.4Frontiers.com)

Is anyone working on a user guide and/or strategy guide for BOTE? Perhaps that's an area I could help with, in what little free time I have (my biggest problem, since I'm already into so many other things). Or I could just be a resource if anyone wants to ask some quick space science questions...

NASA and BELL LAbs, now that is cool, nice to meet you.

Regards Wolfe

Hey there! Welcome to the site!

I hope you don't mind, but your link didn't work so I edited your post to make it work. The site thought the close-bracket was part of the url so I sorted that out for you. I'm one of the admin so don't worry, I'm allowed to do stuff like that. Random people can't edit your posts!

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So you work for NASA eh? Way cool. I *think* there are a few people on the site with connections of some kind to NASA/ESA. We're all trekkies here so methinks people will like talking about sciencey stuff. Me and ZDarby (Another forum member) certainly will!

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To my knowledge, there aren't any guides for BOTE yet - but there probably will be one day. That said, if you have trouble with a particular area of the game, this is definitely the place to ask for help!

The game may have a demo out, but it certainly isn't complete. Far from it. If there is *something* wrong with the game that makes it impossible to play (Such as the AI being invincible ) then that can and will be sorted out before the game is complete. BOTE is the closest to completion out of the four games that we have here though, (BOTE, Supremacy, Allegiance, and New Beginnings) so don't expect for there to be major changes to the programming.

This is also the main reason why there aren't any guides yet - things may change. There isn't any point in making a guide one things are going to change. We'll likely make one when the game is released though, so don't worry. We might all be amateurs here, but we're trying to make the game as professional as we can...and have a bit of fun while we're at it.

The main thing that we really need though is for play testers. The forums are growing in numbers by the day, but unfortunately 95% of the members are lurkers who have never posted. We need information on how the game is working. If there are problems with a particular area of the game or incompatibilities with particular computer setups, we want to know. If people are quiet regarding those problems they will never be fixed!

Play the game and tell us if you notice any glitches or bugs - and if you do, write down what happened and try to recreate them. If they recur, tell us what you did so that the programmer (SirPustekuchen in the case of BOTE) can check it out. That's something that everyone can do, regardless of their artistic, sound, programming, or whatever abilities. Everyone that wants to can offer their help with these games!

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In respects to your skills, you could offer quite a lot of help to the devs. Your AI and coding abilities would be especially useful. AI is something that will be playtested to death when we implement a proper tactical combat system, as the combat part of the game is obviously going to be the most played part of the game. We also want Empires that actually try to conquer the Galaxy!

Your AI programming skills would make that process much easier. I imagine all of the developers (SirPustekuchen, MStrobel, Nemitor_Atimen, and Jigalypuff) would be interested in those skills. You might want to send them a PM just to make sure they know you exit - and I mean that in a good way.

I *think* Nemitor is also programming Allegiance with C++, so he might be interested in your other skills too...

Welcome to the site.

MStrobel's Supremacy is being coded in C# and .Net but the similarities between that and C/C++ shouldn't make helping/modding to difficult.

What actually is the difference in the languages? They've both got C in them...

Wow, fast replies - you guys are working at lightspeed! (or warp speed?)

Thanks for the suggestions... I'll contact the developers and see if there's anything I can do to help with the AI or certainly with play-testing. From what I've seen so far, the coding in BOTE seems rock-solid! The demo is most impressive, and after a few hours of playing, I don't recall encountering anything worse than minor bugs. They've done an awesome job!

I do have a few suggestions that would make the game more playable, but most are probably features already on their wanna-do list. Plenty of time for fine tuning later. And I'll recruit some other play-testers... no problemo.

And thanks for editing the bracket in my post! If SoM sounds like a book that any of you would like to read, send me your snail-mail address (to shadowsofmedusa@gmail.com ) and I'll mail you a free copy. It's the least I can do to thank you guys for all your hard work!

I'll bet MoE is right - probably lots of NASA/ESA lurkers around. Trek has inspired a lot of people to go into science and engineering careers over the years. Hence the critical importance of what you're all doing here, btw... you're helping to inspire the next generations, the ones who will actually go out there and make it happen. Cool, huh?

About the user guides, you're right, it's definitely too soon for a "final version". However, one little trick I've picked up on past software projects is to write a draft user's guide early-on. It can always be updated later, it can help to get more people testing the demos, and it can also serve as a place-holder for all those nice little future wanna-do's.

On the other hand, I've seen that trick badly abused too. Outpost (lovingly called Outhouse by some gamers) is a good example. Great game with tons of potential, but they included some features in the final user's guide that never made it into the game! Bad, bad Outpost, bad. Anyone else recall the outcry in the gamer forums over that one?

Cheers,

Marvin (a.k.a. Brian)

BotE is doubtlessly much farther ahead in development than Supremacy, but I could certainly use some help in the AI department if you're interested. C# is easy enough to pick up if you have experience in C++.

Welcome to the group. We are always soooo glad to see fellow travelers. Jobs around here are assigned by picking out something that interests you and doing it. Just making a second post is an achievement. Sadly most people that offer to help never come back for a second look.

(I taught myself how to build models for the game so as to contribute to the project. I have been able to make models for the game, recruit other to make models, record voice actors for game mono-log and generally make an ass of myself just by hanging around. Most people will help you along as you learn and the flamers are few and generally to be ignored.)

Writing code sounds like it would be a big help!

Space science? So is the difference between Doppler Shift and Red shift that in the first case sound waves are compressed or expanded by relative motion and in the latter that space itself is growing larger while the light is traveling through it? - Or did I get that wrong? I guess this is more cosmology physics than it is rocket science.

So what will the next generation NASA maned space vehicles end up looking and working like?

Hi Kenneth_of_Borg!

I hope to be around for a while... you all seem like a very friendly crowd! And of course, once the Borg get their hands/servos/whatever-they-have on you, assimilation is not far behind. Just wish I had more time... but I'll help out where/when I can.

You got me with the doppler/red shift question - I would have thought they were the same thing (well, red or blue shift depending on relative motion away or toward). Hmmm, I'm just gonna have to ask my astronomer cronies on Tuesday!

I can however say pages about the next NASA manned space vehicles. It's going to be "back to the future" because they will resemble Apollo capsules in many ways. Those old Apollo guys got a lot of things right, at least for lunar exploration. With lighter materials and new-age computer guidance systems, the craft will be more capable and will carry at least 4 crew members... but beneath it all things will be more similar than different.

And the real excitement is in settlements, not sortees, IMHO... i.e. we need colony ships more than scouts.

Mars missions are actually my best area of expertise, and the hardware is much more interesting. Many flavors and options are possible, but doing it the NASA way would probably (30 years from now) involve some sort of service module coupled to the Apollo-like command module. That approach runs into some very tough issues, and I'm betting the first manned/womanned Mars missions will happen far sooner, cheaper, and smarter (perhaps by Russia or ESA or China or India or, most likely, by private industry). Lots of energy is building up, and Good Things are starting to happen. Zephram Cochran is alive and well.

And trekkies will be right in the middle of it all 'cause we know where it's all going! You'd be surprised at how many people out there just don't get it.

Sorry for drifting off topic...

Hi everyone -

Fun thread... especially when we drift a bit. I'll be like Jigalypuff in that regard - drifting can be good.

First the business - as far as user guides someday, sounds like Matress has some good momentum going already. Maybe a guide will pop out of his evil box-springs soon, if it makes sense and fits with everything else going on. Cool. I'll look forward to checking out the random events info too! ... though I usually played BOTF with random events OFF. Darn Borg. (oops, sorry Kenneth, present company excepted)

Malvoisin - roger that, on the AI concerns. With the AI code entangled with the other game code, it makes perfect sense to give the main coders all the leeway they need to carry out their vision. When you get too many workers in the kitchen, nasty bugs creep into the meals (I know, terrible analogy). AI is especially prone to that - bugs can be fiendishly subtle. Starting cautiously within the combat system sounds good. I'm also talking to Mike off-line on some Supremacy needs. Actually, the more I think about the combat system, the more interesting it seems... a BOTF-like game could possibly benefit from a "clean" AI subset, and by "clean" I mean partitioned code that would make combat fun but wouldn't affect the rest of the game. Hmmmm..... yes, this *will* become addicting.

On to fun - one note on doppler shift - it can be darn useful for other measurements than galactic astronomy i.e. expanding universes. I just learned at a science conference last week that asteroid researchers are using doppler shift to study near-Earth binary asteroids (two asteroids orbiting each other). They see shifts in wavelength as the orbits happen, which allows them to measure orbital frequency, which helps get them other useful attributes like mass, density, and possible composition. All that from tiny wavelength shifts.

On to Mars - yes, international is good - and that's one reason I like private industry's chances of reaching Mars first. Business knows few borders now-adays, and some companies could mount a global effort far more effectively than any government. But we'll see how things unfold.

Terraforming Mars - yes it could be done (maybe), but yes it would be hugely expensive and not everyone would be happy about it. My thoughts there - let's get some cheap early settlements going, and then let the Martians figure out how they want to tweak their planet. By that time, the settlers will know far more about Mars and maybe the best terraforming options will be duh-obvious to them.

As for the best way to get to Mars & the most likely way - ouch, long answers would be needed there. I think I'll default to my novel, since that's the meat & potatoes of the 525 page saga and future sequel. I'll repeat my offer to mail a free copy to anyone working on the BOTF's who wants one... just send me a private message with your address or go to http://www.shadowsofmedusa.com

Nuclear rockets: very cool - and they will someday be very nice because of their larger payload potential. But not now. Oddly enough, if I had a nuclear rocket in my back yard today, I wouldn't send anything or anyone to Mars on it. It's hard to design the human factors in a nuclear-powered Mars mission. Your crew would be near zero-G for almost three months, which leads to some serious engineering and physiological concerns. Cargo, on the other hand, would make more sense - you could send lots of Stuff to Mars...... but you couldn't land it safely! Ouch again - new landing systems for heavy payloads are needed first. Details, details.

These are all issues that will someday be solved, when the motivation exists, i.e. people have settled Mars and need lots of Stuff. To get to Mars now, conventional rockets work just fine (though the landing system improvements are needed first), and a settlement could be started fairly cheaply if someone went about it the right way.

Oh - nuclear rockets might have a short lifetime too because they might be replaced right away with fusion rockets. Fusion gives you more, cleaner power, and there's ample fuel where you need it. Farther out, perhaps antimatter engines, which gets you into the Treknology that ZDarby asked about. The big problem there is with fuel again... how do you generate or store antimatter fuel? Someday, someone very smart might figure it out.


Cheers,

- Brian

PS: Sorry for such a loooong post!

Hi Matress -

About the random events list and text - most excellent!! If many of these end up in the games, you might just convince me to play with random events on. Despite the evil Borg.

A quick question - no Ferengi? Was this a design decision that has already been well-pondered??

When we do BOTF multiplayer, my brother is always the Ferengi... he loves their style and quirkiness. And as a Romulan (my fav), I love beating up on Ferengi - it's one of my prime joys in life.

Here are some random thoughts on a few of the random events closest to my planetary science researches. Use what you care to, and I'd be happy to elaborate on things that aren't clear.

On the "comet strike" and "asteroid impact" events, could these be events where the effects are temporary, perhaps for 10 or 100 game-years? In terms of probabilities, it's vastly (!!) more probable that a small comet/asteroid strike would wipe out all life on a planet (or a percentage of life, depending on how big a body hit) rather than a big one actually changing the type of planet (from M-class to Barren, for example). Besides the huge imbalance of small bodies over large ones, planet types tend to be determined by things like mass, abundance of chemical elements, and orbital distance... and none of these would be affected permanently by a comet or asteroid strike. Earth would still be Earth eventually - unless it was hit by a honking huge body that smacked the planet into a different orbit. And in that case, it would probably shatter both bodies into rubble (at work I do a lot of asteroid/comet impact simulations). This was a random event that BOTF got wrong... and hopefully we can fix it in your list!

Planet orbits: there ARE other cases where you could shift the orbit of a planet. Some of my colleagues at SwRI have done a lot of research in this area. Most of these theoretical (thankfully) events tend to happen over cosmic timescales, i.e. millions or billions of years, so they're irrelevant to gamers... but a chance encounter with a rogue planet ala Ceti Alpha or another star system or nebula (anything transient with a LOT of mass or gas drag) could do it. Or some future-tek (gravity research gone awry) perhaps, or Q certainly. I remember seeing Q in the list, but maybe gravity research or rogue planets are good random events if they aren't already in there.

Changing the abundance of chemical elements: well, that's similar to what happens during terraforming. So perhaps a random event where a planet's ecology reverts back and the planet needs to be re-terraformed? That could be nice - but not if you're living there.

Again, use what you think makes sense to use... and I'll keep poring through the list to see if any other thoughts jump out. You've done such a great job with the level of detail that it will take a while.

Cheers,

- Brian

PS: If there's already a "random events" thread, feel free to move this over to it...

Hurray! - glad to hear the Ears will be in BotE! And if they're in Supremacy as a minor race, I can beat up on them more easily. (insert evil laugh here)

I'll second your vote for a killer clown mod too - that would sure spice things up.

I missed the last few seasons of Voyager and also DS9, unfortunately... and am trying to catch them as reruns. Don't think I've seen the artificial asteroid episode, but it sounds like a good one. Asteroids would make great weapons if one could fling them around... but they're definitely WMD's. The Feds would never touch them (but as a Romulan, I like, heh heh).

That would make for a interesting late game technical development. - Cosmic billiards or boweling for billions.

The Ferengi could be made into an empire easily enough in Supremacy. It's really a matter of changing the civ type from a minor to an empire in the editor. Of course, for them to be an effective empire, they'll need a bigger tech tree.

Anyway, I'll be damned if I'm going to develop an entire funky-colored UI theme just to have them in the game .

I actually liked the ear-clowns.
Don't worry Mars2, someone will make a BotFS mod for them, even if it has to be me.

The asteroid episode had some interesting notions in it. The plot was borrowed heavily from Flight of the Pheonix... No... Wait... It was different 1950s movie... But the same idea: model maker takes their knowledge into the real world. The asteroids were a secondary plot device, as was the space-elevator. I remember thinking they cheesed the ending: it wasn't enough that asteroids were falling and the space-elevator was malfunctioning, there had to be an enemy mole too.

I liked the borg, once I figured out how to quickly destroy them: lots of small ships and their firepower is so badly divided, only the small guys get dead.

Your observation about an asteroid hit is quite accurate... Naturally, as this is your current field of expertise! I second your opinions about how they should be modified... A rogue planet or, worse yet, star punching through a planetary system would be absolutely horrendous! It would change the orbits of all the planets in the system, creating a chaos whose full repercussions would take a long time to know. Even near-term effects would be unpredictable... Indeed, it seems to me this would be the biggest problem: unpredictability! I'm not sure how you'd implement this in a game.

The binary asteroid study you spoke of, was that the doppler shift of radar bounced off it or the shift of light from the sun bouncing off? If the latter, they must have an excellent spectra of that system... enough for chemical analysis, perhaps? Which system is it, so I can more easily google it?

From what I understand, its as much the impactlessness (not a word) of microgravity that poorly affects the body as it is the microgravity itself... Do you know if there have been any studies on the idea of using a pair of opposing trampolines for this job? I remember hearing something about it and then not hearing anymore. It struck me as silly at first and then I gave it more thought and it makes sense to me now... And it would be great fun too!!! Though I can just imagine the vibrations it would cause!!! Think of the solar panels of the ISS flapping like a wing-clipped chicken mid-fall down an outhouse!!! LOL!!!

Actually, I meant a nuclear *pulse* engine, like the Orion or Daedalus projects. High thrust, high isp.... Never to be used within Earth's magnetosphere... How about Zubrin's plutonium-salt rocket?

Your book is one of the first things I'm going to purchase when my replacement CC arrives. I don't want a free one simply because 1) I'm not deeply in the work of BotF2 to deserve it and 2) you, as an author of a 525 page book, deserve to get paid. I've tried to write more than one book and have, thus far, yet to finish one. It's *very* hard work.

You could make it like some of the MOO2 random events where you had several turns to correct or stop it, ie "We have detected and incoming asteroid headed towards planet X of System X. You have X amount of turns to sned a ship or build an orbital battery to protect the planet"

etc etc.

Regards Wolfe