I have been wanting to help now for a while but haven't figured out how I could since I am not a programmer. But I think I have figured out a way that I could contribute to the project by taking up a task that no one else is doing right now. Official Game Tester/Balancer. By doing this I could free up more time for the programmers by taking the task of balancing the game off of their hands. Also, doing this would also increase the chances of digging out errors in the game that could otherwise remain hidden and be more difficult to fix later.

I realize that I have not mentioned any of my qualifications in this post and there's a reason for that. Simply put, due to the nature of some of the things I have done and what am attempting to do, all of it legal and morally upright mind you, I would rather not mention the stuff in the open forums. I will however mention that I am a big stickler* when it comes to issues of games being properly balanced.




*stickler (n)-a person who insists on something unyieldingly

I'm not concerned about the workload. To be honest the main reason why I am not is because I am not a programmer so there is a limit of what I could be asked to do. On the other hand, I would enjoy the chance to help where I am able to.

Besides, I have already decided that I would like to do a game balance mod for the game and enjoy doing unconventional things with, or to if you prefer, the game that result in bugs being discovered. This would just make it official.

Thanks Fox, You are our only hope.

I'm not even going to acknowledge that reference....

Good lord, Supremacy needs some serious tweaking and balancing. Resource production/collection rates, resource and production costs, energy costs, tech requirements, you name it. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. I'll give you whatever you need .

Quite frankly, the reason none of this has been done for Supremacy yet is because I have no desire to spend time on balancing when I'm already strapped for time to spend on programming (as you alluded to in your post ).

This is awkward... I was actually originally just applying for a position to help balance BOTE. But if I would be able to help with Supremacy as well than I'll do it. To be honest up to this point I have only been loosely following the development of Supremacy and would need some time to get caught up if I am to help work on it.

If you could point me in the direction of a download like I would be glad to get started.

Well you might aswell wait a week or so, considering you need ships, buildings and facilities for each of the races to balance, of which haven't been given any stock values yet let alone balanced.

Though Dafedz does have numbers for ships, and facilities, there are none for the new buildings. Wait till i hand over the inputted data for those first which shouldn't be to long.

Regards Wolfe

Any word on BOTE then?

Anyways Mstrobel... Here is a basic list of the things that I will definitely need.
*Ship Editor
*Building Editor
*Basic Map Editor that will allow for the placement of units, planets, systems, anomalies, any random encounter events, and the ability to control them. For this a minimum 5X10 grid would be nice to ensure adequate room all foreseeable scenarios and/or encounters that would need to be tested.
* Also, any information on the methods currently used for the calculation of income would be helpful such as how much of a factor industry and population are in addition to how the trade value of each system is decided.
*Unit and Building filters that will allow for the sorting of things by both race, unit/building type, and era to aid in the direct comparison of unit hierarchy and different races equivalent units.

Some things that are not needed necessarily but would make the work a whole lot easier are:

*The ability to start full games that are completely controlled by the AI that would allow me to monitor the building habits and actions of the AI. Essentially this would work by allowing me to issue any commands to any race that I wish, though the control would be set to the AI by default, and end each turn whenever I wish. The ability to use the editor utilities would also be helpful but not necessary. However if this is implemented it can serve as the future base for a level/campaign creator for fans of the game.

Mike@ I worked your appeal for tweaking and balancing into the WANT TO HELP BUILD THE GAMES thread in general.

Alright. I have been reading a few things but can't seem to find the download link for Supremacy or the modding tools anywhere. I think I remember seeing the link for it in the forums somewhere but can't seem to locate it.

Never mind. I found it and am downloading it now... Strange how some things can hide in plain sight.

I am still in the process of downloading everything and have also uncovered the Database finally. Unfortunately I was unable to find the editor programs...

It might not be a bad idea if a dedicated temporary forum were created to house all the download links until the actual download site is up and running again. It would certainly make it easier to find all the stuff.

It is pretty late right now... 2:40... So sorry if I kinda start getting a bit out of it...

That would explain why it took so long to download. That and the fact that I was surfing the net while also loading streaming video.

It's not much but here is what I have completed so far. I went through the editor and made note of all the ships missing English translations.

---------------
Missing Translations Log

Federation Vessels:
None

Klingon Vessels:
D6 Raptor
Vor'cha
D18
Neh'tak
K'Vort
Li'Wi
D4 Bird of Prey
D7 Kolot
D5 Bo'Degh
B'rel
Fortran
Negh'Var
K't'inga

Romulan Vessels:
R'nessel
D'Shathar
P'liath
K'mawt
V'harfeh
K'haethir
P'mitarax
V'Nivatras
P'neadrin
K'mrinn
V'hanlir
R'daran
R'Cheron
R'Thawril
D'mosarem
V'Norexan

Cardassian Vessels:
None

Dominion Vessels:
None

-----------------------------------------

Correction logs for translation errors or outright errors, such as Cardassians being mentioned in the description for Ferangi colony ships and not the Ferangi, are in the works as well. I have also started working on the balancing of the ships in BOTE but I am finding it difficult to compare unit types to the same unit types from other races. Would it be possible for a sort filter to be added to the BOTE ship editor for ship type, Empire, and era, as well as for the information accessed by clicking on the show stats button to be displayed in a new section connected to the main editor screen?

Anyways before I make one of the changes to the balance of the of the game I would like to check to see if anyone has encountered the same problem that I have... That the Oberth looses to anything and everything in a one on one fight.

P.S. Mike, I have edited the post in which I described the things that I will need in order to properly balance the game and moved the editor filters from the not important to the needed section... Balancing BOTE ships against their other race equivalents is proving to be more difficult that I originally anticipated because I am having to constantly having to search for specific ships of the same type while trying to remember the details from the other ships at the same time. It feels like I'm trying to fit a puzzle together without being to move the pieces around to make sure where they fit.

I can see a problem trying to make a direct comparison ship to ship based on the current ship list. I take it BOTE does not use the Shiplist I am working off for models? Major races do not have the same number or type of ships to set one to one based on the "Shiplist" posted here.

http://botfii.armadafleetcommand.com/vi ... =11&t=1066

No, the BOTE ship editor is only currently organized by Empire but each empires ships seem to be in a completely random order and no minor ships have been added to it as of yet.

I am contemplating changing all of the dilithium requirements over to a set scale that will be based primarily on the size and type of each ship. I have not figured out just how big of a role era should play in the calculations though except that as technology develops more could be done with less.

For example while the Galaxy class obsoletes the Constitution class, which only uses 8 dilithium, the Galaxy class would only use 12-15 as opposed to the current 20.

Before I go on any further in my description though I am curious... How much longer will it be before it is decided whether I will become an official member of the staff or not? I would like to know this because during the time I have spent familiarizing myself with all the work that has been done so far I have come up with some ideas, many of which would be easy to implement in future versions of BOTE and/or Supremacy, if they are liked of course, that I think would build upon the already existing game elements in many new ways. The only problem is that these ideas are something that were not in BTOF 1 and if they are to be implemented I think it would be kind of nice if they could be discussed in closed forums. After all, the fans would probably enjoy having a few surprises to look forward to when the next version of the game(s) comes out.

Oh, and thanks for the links Mal. Those ship models look pretty good so far. Just how long did you plan on hiding that stuff from us English speaking only forum goers?

BTW: The link for the Dominion Battle Ship (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... efiant.jpg) is broken.

Models for the minors are loading up on SharePoint for when the time comes. Zeleni and I have been working on that end of it.

It' s true, very hard and boring job!

Some here know how hard you have been working. Keep up the good work.

Just for the sake of clarity, who is it that your comment was addressed to?

To Mal: I thought the staff forum was for closed topic discussion for the game... Is that just for the website then?

Guess you could say almost anyone posting here is doing there part.

I have noticed all the work you are doing Fox.

Zeleni is my hero also.

We all have this dream in common. Keep on Treking.

Yeah but I have also seen another topic name pop up in that area... Something that seemed to about inviting forum goers to join the staff

So then tell me what that was about? Don't worry. I won't tell. Mums the word

You're going to make me cry


Sorry all... For some reason I am just in one heck of a sarcastic mood tonight... Please take whatever non-game work posts I make with a grain of salt for the time being....

Anyways thanks for the compliment Kenneth and keep up the good work. Heck that goes for all of yall working on the projects as well.

feel the love.

Fox, your earlier post on page three asks for editor options for Supremacy. Sorry it's taken me so long to reply but i've been away, as you might have noticed from my signature. I regularly update it.

Anyways, Supremacy has come with an editor for quite some time - it's part of the Supremacy Download. Unlike the BotE editor, the Supremacy editor is a singular program that edits pretty much everything. The different options are displayed under tabs to keep relevant options separate and easy to find. BotE instead has different editors to edit different things.

Once you've downloaded and unzipped Supremacy, open the Supremacy folder and look for a file called "Supremacyeditor.exe". Load that up, and you'll be able to edit tons of stuff. "Supremacyclient.exe" launches the game.


This is already included in the editor, however no minor race buildings are currently included. I am personally adding these so please don't try adding any yourself. (Unless for testing purposes of course)


Umm...the different races have a system editor - you can specify that there is a Gas Giant called Jupiter in system Sol, for instance, or set it so that the planets in another system are completely random. The planets are shown graphically in the editor as you "design" the system. There is no 5x10 grid as you suggest, however.


Umm...I don't really think this has been thought about, as there isn't a proper trade system in place yet. Trade in BotF was based on the population of the two systems involved, and any bonuses. I imagine it will be pretty similar to this in Supremacy.


Umm...the editor works by "designing" a civilization. Multiple civilizations may be based on the same race - you could have both the Federation and the Terran Empire if you wanted, for example. When you create a new civilization, you can select what buildings that civilization can build, what the prerequisites for that building are, whether it is obsoleted or upgradeable, (These are separate things) and so on. Buildings must be created in another tab on the editor before you can add them to the civilizations' buildable list though. Changes can be made on any of the tabs at any time so there is no problem with this system. If a building is buildable by all races, then you do not even need to add it to each races' buildable list - this is done for you automatically.

The Supremacy editor is really easy to use. There are tons of options on there Fox so you will be able to get cracking with it straight away. As I mentioned above, I am working on additions for it, but I'm not the only one - Cdrwolfe is also making additions/changes, and so is Zeleni through me and Wolfe.

I'm working on adding minor races, minor race structures/bonuses, defining minor race homesystems, and some other stuff. Wolfe is working on the adding the Empires ships with provisionary stats, and me, Zeleni, and Wolfe are working on a ship database that we can use to better enter and standardise the ship information that Supremacy requires. It's going to take us a few weeks to do that though. We will definitely need someone to make sure our adjusted stats actually work though. The entire system is based on Dafedz's database, which works on paper, but Dafedz's database did not take minor races' ships into account. We've therefore had to make these stats and abilities up in our own database.

I have never been to New York before. What all did you get to see besides the train museum?

Anyways, Supremacy has come with an editor for quite some time - it's part of the Supremacy Download. Unlike the BotE editor, the Supremacy editor is a singular program that edits pretty much everything. The different options are displayed under tabs to keep relevant options separate and easy to find. BotE instead has different editors to edit different things.

Once you've downloaded and unzipped Supremacy, open the Supremacy folder and look for a file called "Supremacyeditor.exe". Load that up, and you'll be able to edit tons of stuff. "Supremacyclient.exe" launches the game.



What I specifically was referring to was the ability to place units themselves in that grid and pitting them against each other to test how well balanced they are. As for the gird size, those were just the minimum grid size coordinates that I feel will be needed to test out just about any foreseeable scenarios that will need to be tested and balanced out.

Hmm... In that case it looks like my best routes are either to try to figure out the pop to income calculations (if you happen to know what they are I would greatly appreciate it) or work on coming up with an equation to determine income from production from scratch.


Ok... I have been a bit busy lately and haven't had the chance to crack open the editor yet and I am not home at the moment but I think it is safe to say there has been a misunderstanding on this point. What I was asking is first, if the existing units and buildings are all displayed in the editor along with their statistics. If so, is there any way to sort them out by category?


Alright. I look forward to playing with it.


[/quote]
Is there any place that I can get Dafedz data base?

Oh, sorry Fox. Dafedz's Database has been around for so long I assume everyone knows the link.

Dafedz's Database

...

I don't think Mike has any plans to add something like you suggest, Fox. Making any kind of game map for positioning ships would require the game to load up something first. Perhaps game saves could be made, but these would be useless the moment you modified the game...

...

Trade really is something that hasn't been implemented yet, Fox. It's too early to think about. There isn't even an AI to trade with yet!

...

Images can make good substitute for opening a program. Unfortunately I can't show the Civilizations screen because a glitch in the latest version of the game makes it impossible to access the Civilizations screen. Bugs always strike at the best times.

Actually I have seen that... I just stumbled across the link for it digging through the forums and just never new who put it together... My mistake.

...

So no plans for something like the civ IV world builder than... Oh well. I guess I will just have to make due then.
...

I guess I kinda have gotten ahead of myself a bit there...

...


[/quote]

Thanks for the screens. Looks like I shouldn't have much to worry about with that layout.

Also don't go adding any buildings, facilities or ships as they're already done for all the major races anyway, well 95% done.

Regards Wolfe

...Not until mine and Wolfes' updates are done, anyway.

My own updates are also nearing completion, so it really won't be long before they are uploaded. Pretty much all I need to do is tie in the special buildings to the minor races and clear up a problem with minor races that inhabit systems with only one planet. (The editor doesn't seem to like that)

The updates will likely form part of the next Supremacy update, depending on how long away that is. Seeing as the most recent update was yesterday (To fix a number of issues with the editor, which may also include the bug that I mentioned above, i'm not actually sure if Mike knows about it yet. I'll check when I get home from uni and submit a bug report on his site if necessary)

...

Mike may implement a civ-style builder, but I severely doubt it, Fox. My programming knowledge is non existant but I imagine that it would involve reprogramming a large part of the galaxy-creation code to allow a civ builder to be implemented.

...

If you haven't played Supremacy yet, Fox, I really would give it a try if I were you. Once you've had a play with it, have a go at the editor and do whatever you want with it - you CAN make new buildings or whatnot as long as you don't SAVE.

IF you did want to save the changes to see them in the game, you will need to make a backup copy of BOTH the Data AND the Strings folders. (In Supremacy/Resources/...)

All you have to do then is overwrite your edited files with the files in your backups and Supremacy will be restored. Downloading Supremacy again and allowing it to overwrite files will also restore the game, HOWEVER I do not recommend doing this. Not only does it waste expensive bandwidth, you also run the risk that if Mike updates the game in the meantime, some old/obsolete files may not get deleted when they should be, resulting in conflicts and crashes. For this exact reason, you should completely delete all existing Supremacy files (Those in your Supremacy folder) before you download any updated files. If you make any changes via the editor, you will again need to save a copy of your Data and Strings folders, then let these overwrite the versions unzipped from the update. (Which always contains EVERY game file, not just the updated ones)

...

Some of the minor races - especially the Dosi, Gorn, Ferengi and Karemma - currently have some huge trade bonuses, eg. the Ferengi have a +15 trade routes AND +50% trade income bonus. This means Ferenginar could earn something in the region of 25 times that of a normal system. Obviously with bonuses like this, adjustments will need to be made to balance it out - the bonuses may be reduced, or it will be made extremely difficult to "acquire" these races. As with BotF, the bonuses will also only apply once their special buildings have been built - and where necessary, powered - so we could add further restrictions such as high build costs, high raw material costs (A new resource in Supremacy) or high energy costs. Several of the races, such as the Ferengi, also get MULTIPLE special buildings, which is why they have both a +15 trade route and a +50% trade income bonus. You can see some of these multiple buildings in the buildings list in one of the images above.

All these changes will need to be made during play testing, however, so it will be up to people like you to provide us wth that info...so as long as you can wait, we'll have a job for you, Fox.