Strings' link may try to be informative but frankly I'm not convinced. The only parts of it I trust are the red (tv shows) and orange (canon tech manuals). Still, I'm perfectly happy leaving credits in the game (as Malvoisin said even in later shows like DS9 and VOY there would be mentions of money, or implied like Julian and Miles had to pay Quark for the holosuites somehow), but then my point about them having no use in Supremacy thus far still stands.

I guess the "buying" and rushing up buildings - thing is still to be implemented fedor .

I'm aware that there is very little use for credits *yet*, but this will likely change over time as the game gets fleshed out a bit. And if it doesn't, and credits still have no practical use outside of diplomacy, then I'll be willing to consider removing them from the game.

Heh, I was quite surprised with the fact that I seemed to hit quite a nerve with the whole credits thing :p I was actually only curious what plans, if any, there were.

I think you'll agree that in BOTF buying things seemed weird, especially as the Feds, cause who were you paying? Where was the money going? Especially when say you've just started and only have Sol and haven't met anyone yet. Because of the mixed signals in the TV shows etc, we're definitely left with a messy situation. I mentioned the Feds in particular because for any other empire we can make the assumption that private individuals/families/enterprises exist and that you're contracting them for example. But for the Federation, I've always liked to think that all resources are controlled by the government and governmental agencies, and allocated by them as well. I guess whichever way we go someone will be left upset, can't really win-win. Well, perhaps thats what mods are for?

I suppose it comes down to a gameplay issue, making credits a resource which has some vital use means no doubt you can add various gameplay elements which can manipulate credit numbers and hopefully add fun and interesting gameplay. If say credits were vital to ship building then you would want a constant supply of credit. If this credit was disrupted somehow then you would be forced to do something about it, i.e pirates or something to that effect.

Regards Wolfe

I felt weird about the Federation spending credits too when I first picked up BOTF again this year. To rush ships/buildings, I was thinking maybe the Federation could sacrifice productivity in other areas (like science? or a morale hit from overworked workers? dunno). I jotted down some ideas for the other races too, like maybe the Cardassians can actually rush ships/buildings through working some population to death in subjucated systems *evil laugh* I thought it was a cool idea that could be added after the more important features.

understanding economics is never quite easy. I mean the deeper question behind this is something like why not just create credits out of nowhere and "print money". but to the original question. What I think credits stand for is surplus production. To be more exact, it's the economic surplus factor that allows to build things in a way that usually would mean "at a loss".
In other words you quick-hire lots and lots of skilled workers, letting them work round the clock, pay night-shifts, supply those workers with extra-facilities which become of no use once the ship/building is completed. But of course always "state-controlled".

It also means to "overuse" production facilities and their robots assembling the ship or building parts together leading them right over to the scrap heap once the thing is assembled. That prevents having usable extra-facilities left for further regular worker assignment after task completion.

Also it means to have those who create those production modules and parts increase their speed at the cost of lower efficiency, more committee/rejects, and all this at the price of economically valued goods which are now spent once the production is complete and such no longer available. Thus the spent credits.

If you give away credits to other races, you actually give that surplus capacity to them so they can use your facilities to build things they want to or just sell it further to someone else for stripes of latinum. I think despite what ideal state the economy in the UFP might be, there are still things scarce such as skilled and qualified manpower, industrial production capacity, also despite what replicators can actually perform in that area and certain raw materials. All of which qualify for the general use of a term called credits which combine them and let you spend them on whatever occasion you like.

It's a gauge of the economic flexibility in-game. If you make credits out of trading, you do just the things above, but with another empire.

Of course one could think of a system that ties credits and the cost of buildings to the current mean tech level in order to represent the efficiency with which credits are converted into usable goods. But then one has to increase credit costs for late-tech buildings and ships by a certain factor and cannot link it firmly to the industry cost of the given product. Also what is even more important, one should make the costs to buy things higher each time you buy something in a given turn in order to show that your empire is already strained out with the last buy request. Also industry costs should be exponentially linked to credits cost, i.e. high industry points still remaining at a given build equals even higher credits costs so that large projects aren't that easily bought up. Next buy in same turn is then correspondingly more expensive, the more you spend already for the other buy. It is a natural continuation of the exponential relation of IP and Credits cost.
You have then to wait a turn before that economic heat is taken out of the system.

Ok, so in short you're saying the game requires a mechanism for storing surplus production, easiest way is via credits, and trading with credits is a transfer of surplus production, oh and with every buy, cost of production should increase due to loss of efficiency and damaged infrastructure.

Well ... I agree. it is essential and I see now my suggestion of taking it out of science etc has no provision for storing surplus, so scrap that idea. Hmm, maybe we can keep calling it credits, but just have some creative writers put in a tooltip that say the credits are surplus production, and not money in the Federation. In Supremacy this can go into the encyclopedia bit. Simple solution, no?

This is most of the info about Federation Credits from Memory Alpha, I would've just posted the link, but there isn't too much info, and I couldn't remember if they allowed links or not. Hope this helps.

Federation credits are units of currency used in transactions with some Federation and non-Federation worlds or for goods and services that cannot be replicated efficiently. Although not a monetary unit in the classical sense, it makes exchanges with alien planets possible. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles"; TAS: "Mudd's Passion"; TNG: "The Price")

When interacting with alien cultures, Federation citizens simply inform the aliens that they will be "paying" in Federation credits and the aliens get their true compensation through trade agreements between the two governments. Thus, Federation officers could buy drinks at Quark's without owning a single bit of latinum. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine)

* Kirk stated that Starfleet had a lot invested in both he and Spock. In fact, Starfleet had 122,200-plus credits invested in Spock by the year end of 2267. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", "The Apple")

* Uhura offers to purchase a tribble for ten credits. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles")

* Beverly Crusher buys a roll of cloth, and has her account on the Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

* The Federation would have paid 1,500,000 Federation credits as a lump sum and then 100,000 credits every Barzanian year for the rights to the Barzan wormhole. (TNG: "The Price")

Most of the uberposts on the forums were written by me. Trust me, I can take it.



Many of the images are low quality simply because they are they ONLY images available. You could have a go at ripping if you like, but i'm not too hopeful because virtually all of the images were acquired by Dafedz, and other people have already tried to improve on the images but haven't had any luck.

...

Money...we've had a lot of discussion on this, although nothing recent. We all know that Credits had a use in BOTF because they allowed you to buy structures and buildings, as well as to bribe other races. It was my understanding that bribing would (eventually) be in the game, and that while it will be effective against some races - such as the Ferengi - some races will be extremely resistant to it. Some races - such as the Vulcans - may actually even be offended by it! Now if people are talking about scrapping it, then i'm wondering about the above making its' way into the game. If so, there would then be no use for thing slike the communications grid, and it would be impossible to subvert other races.

I also remember that a looong time ago we discussed having a sort of "bonus pay" option where you give your builders a 10% pay bonus if they worked overtime, but this would only result in a small build increase and would NOT be an instant-build option. No one has mentioned it in a while though, so I don't know if it's in or not. You haven't yet mentioned about this either, Mike, so do you remember this discussion? Either way, I think money should be in because otherwise it would make trading useless unless it actually allows you rto move resources around - Dilithium, Deuterium, and Raw Materials. But I think going down that route would be tedious and boring.

It looks really good so far.

I realise the diplomacy is still new, but i found i couldn't send new messages after a while. Is there a limit to the number of diplomatic contacts you can have?

It's a known bug that's actually been mentioned here in this thread already. If you save and restart your game, you'll find you can use it again.

Is that kind of resource usage normal? 100% CPU and whatnot.

Based on what Mike said in a recent post earlier in this thread, Emwun, Supremacy uses all the power that is available to it - if you've got more, Supremacy will find a way to use it, especially for the planet animations. But as soon as another program needs that power, Supremacy will release it for that other program. I therefore imagine that this IS normal.

I just checked Supremacy to see what kind of results I got, and i'm seeing similar things. These are my results, Mike. I watched processor usage and commit charge fluctuate for 10 seconds each time, so processor usage is given as a range and the commit charge number is the MAXIMUM it went to during those 10 seconds. This is because I found that the commit charge level fluctuated much more quickly than the processor usage level. Folding@home was running in the background during both of these tests.

Music Enabled Statistics

• Before Game Was Started: 51-54% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 891/2458Mb
• Loaded Game: 54% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1048/2458Mb
• Music Level Set To 0%: 52% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1047/2458Mb
• Galaxy Creation: 91-100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1102/2458Mb
• Galaxy Map, Sol System: 100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1135/2458Mb
• Galaxy Map, Empty Sector Selected: 99-100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1139/2458Mb
• Build Screen: 88-92% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1136/2458Mb
• Research Screen: 63-72% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1137/2458Mb
• Intel Screen: 63-65% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1137/2458Mb
• Diplomacy Screen: 68-72% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1137/2458Mb
• Turn 1 Processing: 100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1173/2458Mb
  
  
  -NoMusic Parameter Enabled
• Before Game Was Started: 51-54% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 891/2458Mb
• Loaded Game: 54% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1048/2458Mb
• Music Level Set To 0%: N/A
• Galaxy Creation: 68-100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1126/2458Mb
• Galaxy Map, Sol System: 100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1134/2458Mb
• Galaxy Map, Empty Sector Selected: 100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1129/2458Mb
• Build Screen: 80-90% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1130/2458Mb
• Research Screen: 64-69% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1130/2458Mb
• Intel Screen: 62-68% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1130/2458Mb
• Diplomacy Screen: 64-72% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1130/2458Mb
• Turn 1 Processing: 100% Processor Usage, Commit Charge 1168/2458Mb

From the results, turning off the music results in a very small reduction in both processor and memory usage. It's not much of a difference though, so if people are having problems with the music, those problems aren't affecting me. Hope the info helps, Mike.

I guess my first question to Emwun would be:
What CPU do you have?

But beyond that as you can see I experienced some pretty high usage on my Core 2 Duo so you're not alone and the game simply hasn't been optimised for performance yet. As for what Matress said, I agree with everything except for "Supremacy uses all the power that is available to it - if you've got more, Supremacy will find a way to use it, especially for the planet animations". Unless there is a bug, from what I know there should still be a ceiling where the game is running without being hindered at all, it's just for now this ceiling is quite high, and if Mike has anything to do about it, it will come down. The one exception being turn processing, it's in everyone's best interest there that the game really does use all the power available to it to make the process as fast as possible.

AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.21 GHz

For a single core 2.2ghz A64, I think it's pretty much expected. I mean think about it, the Core 2 Duos do more work per CPU cycle than current (and your) AMD, so that means if my two cores at 2.66ghz each are hitting over 60% usage then to me your numbers seem in line with my experiences too. No need to worry though, the game will be optimised in time. For now, you can try deselecting the extra animations in Options and you can create a shortcut to the game with a -NoMusic switch. I imagine this will help some if you are using an onboard sound card, but not really otherwise.

Just in case you don't know how, browse to the Supremacy main .exe file, right-click, then use the Send To --> Desktop and it will create a shortcut on the desktop. Then right click that and change the "Target" to something like:
R:\sup07jan08\SupremacyClient.exe -NoMusic

Hi there all together.

First, Supremacy is getting where botf should have been a long time ago. I really like it.

Though, I need to post a bug:

after saving a game I am not able to load it again, I attached the Error.txt thingy for information.

Keep it up, i really like this game, keeps me awake during boring shifts at work with not much to do...

Greets,

the duke

Looks like the savegame was corrupted on saving. Did you try loading more than once? I find the C:\ paths with Mike Strobel in there kinda off! I'm sure he will appreciate the feedback and will have something more definitive to say about your problem, but for now I thank you on his behalf

Sorry about the paths, the stack trace includes the file names and line numbers of the source code files as they appeared on the machine on which the game was compiled (mine).

Posted a new release with more bug fixes to the game and the editor (matress, descriptions should save properly now).

My RAID5 array crapped out on me entirely today, making me lose 2TB of data, so it's a good thing I can test this version out now and take my mind off it for a bit

Yikes, did you lose more than one drive or something? I'd think you'd be okay if just one drive died in a RAID-5 array.

You know I got online today... went to bluesnews.com... saw that production of Star Trek Online has stopped... and that Perpetual is transferring the workload to another company... which means that STO wont be ready for Winter 08 ...

But as I went on BOTF 2 forums and saw that Mike has posted something... turns out to be a Alpha update for bug fixes and a editor... well .... Safe to say Im back in a good mood...

You the man Mike

One drive dropped, and the bastard failed during a rebuild! *poof*

I've got quite a bit of input on Supremacy written down on a sheet now, I'll make a big post soon (including one crash).

OK first non-Matress bits :p

I experienced a crash. The word (I assume) OUTGOING is cut off in the Diplomacy screen. So I was curious and I hovered my mouse in the area, and parts of the bar at the top (with the words OUTGOING among it and others) light up when they are hovered over. I figured maybe this was some implementation of "Sorting By", and I clicked. Result = crash. I've attached error.txt, crash.txt and trace.txt.

What is the significance of the word Diplomacy in the top right on the starmap screen? Is it something that is a left-over of a feature that was decided against, or something that still will be implemented? Just pointing it out in case it's been forgotten heh.

Two feature requests. One, would it be possible to click the little fleet/ship icon on the starmap and be taken directly to issuing orders for the ship/fleet that is represented by the icon? This was in the original BOTF, and although it sometimes select ships/fleets that you don't want (if you have large stacks) I still felt it was more beneficial and useful than not. Two, the right click navigation. In BOTF, if you were to press the right click button and hold it, pull up/down/left/right, and then let go, it would jump to the screen in question. I found it to be extremely slick and click-saving. I don't know how easy it would be to implement (I don't think the fact that there are six sections instead of four in BOTF should make a difference although it might) but I think it was a fantastic feature.

Matress, here are some things I jotted down about race descriptions:
Ardanans
...if there to be serious... should be they are or they're, not there.

Son'a
But they have... First, maybe it shouldn't be a new sentence. Second, I think "But they *do* have..." would read better.

Wadi
"...even in the stakes..." should be "even if the stakes"

B'Omar
"...keep themselves to themselves".... my guess is that should read "keep to themselves"

Enthara
the word discretion should be indiscretion I think

Romulans
"For it's talented" should be "For its talented" and the usage of " its' " later is wrong too.
I don't see the need to capitalise the word Cloaking
Finally, the sentence with ambush seems like two incomplete sentences strung together. IMO needs a rewrite.

EDIT - I'm a little confused, the descriptions in-game do not match the ones from Supremacy Editor. Aren't they supposed to?

Hehe thanks for those, Fedor!

The outgoing message bit is definitely a mistake - the bar where it needs to go needs to be extended. I'm sure Mike can fix that in a future update.

I'm only guessing here, but i'm pretty sure i'm right. The significance of Diplomacy on the galactic map is that when you make contact with another Empire, their icon will be displayed in one of the four boxes underneath Diplomacy. You will probably be able to click the icon to be taken straight to Diplomacy with that race. It looks like that's a feature that hasn't been implemented yet though.

I've implemented all of your grammar updates, as well as a few of my own. I've also fixed the missing facility descriptions problem, fixed the problem with the Federation shipyards (There was no type 1 but two type 2 shipyards), i've deleted all of the doubled-up images, and i've almost finished the transparency fixes now. I'll send the completed files to Mike when I'm done.

Matress likes the feature requests.

...

Mike, this will probably make you want to tear your hair out but the galactic map glitch is still there. I can tell if a minor race is in a sector that I haven't yet explored.

I noticed we missed the Voth in dafedz database but voth search here in the forums diggs up some results, like the Voth logo as Job for 2D artists. I think we should add them quickly cause I have the feeling we might forget about them again otherwise .

Oh yes...the city ship people. They're going to be a difficult race to make, considering they lived in a ship, not a system. What do people think? Stick with canon and make them a random event, or have them as another minor race, albeit one with supremely advanced technology?

...

Fedor, the descriptions are different because each race has TWO descriptions; one low-detail one that you see during first contact, and another, greater detail one that is available in the Trekpedia. You can access this from the research screen by clicking on the encyclopedia icon at the top of the screen. As with everything else, you can only see these descriptions once you have encountered the race first.

Matress is correct about the purpose of the 'Diplomacy' header on the galaxy screen (currently only a placeholder). Also, I just fixed the crash when clicking on the "Outgoing Message" header to sort. I'll fix the race visibility problem with unexplored sectors later this week.