Theres not going to be freignters in the game is there?, if not then why dont we just streal the freighter design and use it as a supply ship, they both carry stuff from one place to another, fair enoguh a freighter is designed for Raw materials but hey, a little conversion and it would work.

Okeey these are my temp ideas for this .

supply vessels are going to be called Support vessels

Freighters and stuff are going to be called Supply vessels

Support vessels can resupley vessels, resources that are needed for repairing, refueling and reaming, will be taken from the total resource stockage.

Supply vessels, can supply only to other colonis stuff like replicators

Support vessels, can build facilities in space


What do u think? Perhaps there are few other options that need to be in?

CHeck out a working site of an order of Ships for the Game ---

http://www.geocities.com/bond007s/BOFT2 ... isting.htm


I can change anything...

That is a cool site, where did you get all the info/pictures from?

Shall we go on?

Just to tidy that up slightly....


Support Vessels- Can resupply ships, resources required for repairs, rearming and refuelling are taken from the total resource pool.

Supply Vessels- Can supply things to colonies, replicators etc.


Addition

Construction Ships- Can build Outposts, Starbases etc.



What's the plan for capturing systems? Will there be troop transport ships as in botf? Or will battleships etc perform this function?

i agree with that

tho i think that warships should be able to carry, ferry and land tropps on planets and installations as well

in "the siege of AR-558"

the defiant is attacked by 2 jem hadar ships, and is forced to withdraw and leave sisko and co. on the planet

before they leave, worf informs sisko that jem hadar r landing 9 clicks from his poition

which means of course that -

1. either there was another ship there that landed the troops
2. or that the 2 jem hadar ships or maybe just 1 of them had landed them


and it would make sesn that all jem hadar ships would carry at least sum ground troops

after all theyre the army of the dominion


any thoughts?

I personally don't like 'troop transports' either.

The Negh'Var landed troops on DS9 to try to capture it.

The Battle of Chin'Toka saw no ships other than standard battleships etc.


I think from a gameplay aspect many like the vulnerable and slow troop transports which are necessary for system capture. It does add to the strategy, although I also see marky's point.

What does everyone think?

I know its an alternait timeline, but in "Yesterdays Enterpries" tasha yar said that the Galaxy was able to transport 6000 troops. So i say that normal ships can easy take instilations and systems, no need for a Troop Transprts. I do think tahe if shiops also have a ground combat rating, then the Nebula Troop pod should be considered.

Agreed. If each ship had such a rating it would negate the need for troop ships, or at the very least supplement them.

If a Galaxy can carry that many troops, imagine how many a negh'var or scimitar could carry.

agreed

and imagine how many a jem dreadnought could carry 8O

id say at least 10-15000 jemhadar

but troop transports do add to this game, if you attack with just ships in botf then you wouldn't be able to capture enemy systems. But when you see a massive fleet coming with a bunch of troop transports', then you know where they are coming. . I think that Troop Transport still should have a major part in this game.

I really am on the fence with this one.

i vote for the armada asssault ships

theyre better suited

Don't you think that troop transport would add to the game? I mean these things would be helpless without a escort. They are weak, and only usefull in subjugation. So i really think that this would add to the game, because you have to wait for these ships for instance into entering a system, or you have to escort them, that kind of stuff. With a assault ship, things would get easier, less strategic. You could destroy a troop tranport sometimes with a cloaken b'rell, and you can't do this with a assault ship.

but ud still have to esxcort an assault ship

and assault ships could capture installations

troop transports cant

theyre more useful than the stabdard troop ship

and it would still be strategic

Well those weren't real good answers, Marky. A assault ship is more build to capture ships and installations not to capture system with milions perhaps bilions of people. This is were the troop transports come in, they are the only ships that have enough capacity for the soldiers to go to the surface. So we could use both vessels, the one for capturing ships and facilties and the other for capturing and securing systems.

well pardon me duke of dork

jus joking wulfpak

lol

i think an assault ship could secure a system too

or a group of them

and i mean, u cant take a system with just 1 transport now can ya?

at least not often if tur opponent plays right

i guess i just think it would be better to replace the troopship with the assault ship

1. theyre tougher
2. theyre faster
3. they have their own weapons
4. theyre more versatile

tho if this cant b done i would agree to that compromise of having troopships and assault ships

"but u and i are reasonable men and surely reasonable men can come to some sort of utually acceptable compromise"



i would propose that if assault ships are used they be modeled after a curry class variant, at least in the tos and tng eras

I agree with wulffy.

I really don't see any need to further spoil the canon feel of the game by introducing yet another made up ship type. I think it's clear the ship you propose wouldn't be able to carry the troops needed to take a system. If we are going to be given the ability to capture ships, it should be possible from any powerful ship.

All good. however the original BoF had a problem. One that is closely tied into the need for trek to itemize things exactly after the show. For instances your tieing ship roles into places based on how you percieved them in the show and then placing them in the technology tree based on when they arrieved in the trek universe.. All very cannon and such, but not very good game design I'm affraid. See in BoF it was over whelmingly powerfull to play the federation, they are just much better developed in the shows obviously. the other races didn't have enough diversity to match them. As such I propose a salution.

take all the ship images of each ship and plop them in a pool of available images.

Now when a ship is being designed.. Oh please tell me your doing ship design!. you get to select an image of a ship. You can group the images in the era's you want under the technologies you want so that the progression of ships available is still there.

This way if you want you can build an NX-01 in the TNG era and build it with TNG technology but with an image out of the "past" Just like the old MOO. now I would suggest a ship building scheme like the one used in the defunct Ascendancy. If you would like I can prototype a UI screen for you, with options documentation and examples.

While the hardcore cannon fans might not warm to this idea right away it lends something to the game that BoTF didn't have lots of the first time around and that was replayablilty

So are you suggestion some sort of ShipCreator for this game, implemented into the game? It would be very nice ofcourse, to have a few ships you have altered a bit... But you also have to know, that races like the klingons or the dominion, will receive a lot of self made ships, which are perhaps not canon, but will look nice along the already the excisting once.

This game is firstly made for the hardcore fans, the people that really wanted a botf2. Without them there wouldn't be a BOTF2 project. But ofcourse we expect to have lots of new people playing this game.

Intro:
~~~~~~~~~
Back when I was naive enough to think the modding of BOTF1 shiplist, models and gameplay would be easy, I started to think of what I'd like from a BOTF mod. Below is the shiplist for the Feds I wanted. (I did not get as far as deciding any of the other empires before realizing I simply could not mod what I wanted from BOTF1.) Below is that list, for what it's worth. I do not expect you to implement it � I don't expect you to even like it � I just hope it offers someone an idea as yet unthought.

Definitions:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm using most of the original BOTF1 type names and their meanings: "Cruiser", "Strike Cruiser", etc. But I've eliminated "heavy escort" as being arbitrary.

"PreWarp" ships would allow the player to explore and colonize their own solar system and only their own system at Tech-0.

It's written as classes. IE, "Galaxy" is the Galaxy class. If the class name says "Re" at the end, that means "refit": "Constitution-Re" = "Constitution Refit"; "Gal-X (aka Gal-Re)" = "Galaxy-X (Also Known As Galaxy Refit)".

I had in mind that when one type was replace by a new type (IE: TOS_Scout replaces Ent_Scout) the old ships already made would stay in the galaxy but could no longer be made. I'm glad to know this will be done in BOTF2. Also, when the refit was researched, the old class would no longer be available: if you could make Miranda-Refit TMP_Destroyers, you could no longer make Miranda TOS_StrikeCruisers. Further, if a type existed in a previous era but not in the next, you'd still be able to make that class. Example: DS9_Colony has no entry so the Shelly from TNG_Colony would still be used. Anti-example: TNG_Dreadnought also has no entry but TMP_Dreadnought (Excelsior) would not be used as a Dreadnought in TNG era since Excelsior-Re is entered in TNG_Heavy Destroyer. In this case the TNG era would have no Dreadnought. (Did that make any sense?)


Chart: (I hope this doesn't get truncated!)
______________________________________________________________________
-------------------| PreWarp | Pre-Ent ~ | Ent & Pre-Tos ~~ | TOS |
______________________________________________________________________
Scout................ Phoenix .. Valiant ..... Mystery Delta . Hermes .......
Frigate.............. - ............ Daedalus .. Intrepid ......... Saladin ......
Destroyer.......... - ............ - .............. NX-01 ........... Paladin ......
Cruiser.............. - ............ - ............. - .................. - ............
Strike Cruiser..... - ............ - ............. - .................. Miranda ......
Heavy Destroyer. - ............ - ............. - .................. - ............
Heavy Cruiser...... - ........... - ............. - ................... - ............
Command.......... - ........... - ............. - ................... Constitution .
Dreadnought...... - ........... - .............. - ................... Federation ...
______________________________________________________________________
Colony.............. dy-100 .. Conestoga .. J-Class ......... Ptolemy ......
Troop............... dy-100 .. dy-500 ....... Y-Class ......... Ptolemy ......
______________________________________________________________________
Outpost............ - .......... - ............... - ................... K-7 ..........
Starbase........... - .......... - ............... - .................. Fleet HQ .....
______________________________________________________________________
~~~~~
~~~~~
_____________________________________________________________________
--------------------| TMP ~~~~~~ | TNG ~~~~~~ | Ds9 & Voy |
_____________________________________________________________________
Scout................. Oberth ............. Raven ........... Nova ..............
Frigate............... Polaris ............. Cheyenne ....... Saber .............
Destroyer........... Miranda-Re ....... Centaur ......... Norway ............
Cruiser............... - ..................... Ambassador ... Intrepid ..........
Strike Cruiser..... Soyuz ............... Nebula ........... Akira .............
Heavy Destroyer. Constellation ..... Excelsior-Re ... Defiant ...........
Heavy Cruiser..... - ...................... New Orleans ... Prometheus ........
Command......... Constitution-Re .. Galaxy ........... Sovereign .........
Dreadnought...... Excelsior ............ - .................. Gal-X (aka Gal-Re)
_____________________________________________________________________
Colony............... Sydney ............. Shelly ............ - .................
Troop................ Sydney .............. Shelly ............ - .................
_____________________________________________________________________
Outpost............. Regula .............. Starbase 173 .. Starbase 375.......
Starbase........... Spacedock ......... Starbase 73 ... - .................
_____________________________________________________________________


Ship Class Notes:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Valiant" under Pre-Ent_Scout refers to the Valiant class introduced in the episode TOS-Where No Man Has Gone Before.

"Mystery Delta" refers to the planetary defense ship of delta-wing shape found in Ent-The Expanse. A couple of reference images can be found at <www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/prefed_ships.htm> under "Unnamed Class II".

"Intrepid" of Ent era is not the same as "Intrepid" of DS9 era, obviously.

Most of the class types under the TOS era come from the "Star Fleet Technical Manual" for that era. The exceptions are the "Paladin" and the "Miranda". The TOS Miranda was from an add-on to Klingon Academy called "Fed-TOS-Mod-Pak"; in the mod, this ships was called the "Avenger" Class. The "Paladin" is a conjectural class I found at the "TrekMania" website <www.trekmania.net/index.htm> and liked emmediately. I considered replacing "Hermes" with "Kestrel" from The Starfleet Museum site <www.starfleet-museum.org>.

"Polaris" under TMP_Frigate comes from the Daystrom Institute <www.ditl.org>. As does most everything else.

Methodologies and Status:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It was my intention to make my own models for these and other ships using other's models as a pattern. I assumed they could be no larger than 350 triangulated polygons, as it is in BOTF1. I further assumed they could have only one UV-map image. All modeling was to be done in Wings3D <www.wings3d.com>, most UV mapping done on Ultimate Unwrap <www.unwrap3d.com> and translated with various programs.

I completed a handful of models and began creating many more before realizing I could not mod BTOF the way I wanted. These models include Phoenix, Valiant, Daedalus, the entire TOS line-up and others.

Again, I did not get to the point of making a similar list for other races. That was my intention.

Also, I did not complete my analysis for the Tech Tree for this ship list... And I think I've lost all my notes on the subject.

Apologies and Offers:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry this message is quite so large. I wanted to get all the info in one spot. I hope I've posted in the right place and I've not stepped on anyone's toes. If I have, in either case, I deeply apologize. This will be my first post. I've read most of the threads on the first page, but nothing beyond this. I'll be reading more but not tonight - my brain's already numb with info.

I'm *very* excited about this project. I am not a programmer but I have experience with modeling and limited experience with 2d graphics. I'm more than happy to offer what little abilities I have to help. Just ask.

First of all welcome to the botf2 forum, ZDarby!



You should know that you can always upgrade your ships by sending them towards a shipyard and pay for it. This way also your older excelsior can get a refit to excelsior refit1 or something like that.


About modding in original botf:
About your ships and stuff, it is possible to create new ships, look on the botf site for info about the guide of davidz. He and Jigalypuff have made new ships for the game. One problem, they can't fire phasers.

Back to botf2:
Do you want to make era's in the game? Just a question, and how can this be done with races like the Cardassians/Romulans/etc..?

Thank you for your info, and i hope that you will stay and contribute ideas for this game. If you want some work on 3d grahpics and stuff, then don't hesitate to contact Jigalypuff either with a PM or just with a e-mail.

Thank you for the welcome, iwulff. I hope I can be of survice and not simply a gad fly.

It's my opinion you already have eras: that's what upgrades are. If you're going from one class battle ship to another, isn't that the same as "eras"? (I mean, I think I can assume you don't mean to ask whether it would be good if the capabilities of all the races is upgraded when one race finds reasearches something new in order to maintain an "era". That would defeat much of the purpose game, IMHO.)

As to what to do about eras for other races, I'm afraid you'll have to make it up. But you'd have to do that going from one upgrade to the next anyway; there simply isn't enough info on other races to do anything else, whether you use "eras" or not.

Luckily, there are clues, mostly to do with race attitude. We know, for example, the Klingons make a ship class and shape then stick with it for centuries. Even if you ignore Enterprise, they used a D-7 shape from TOS to TNG. Sure it probably fell through the ranks through time from dreadnaught to light cruiser, but its basic shape (and probably internal workings) seems to have remained the same.

So, it seems to me, those in charge of making up the ships should get together as a gang, hash out and agree on the evolutionary history of a given race's ships � using as much information from cannon and other sources as possible � and then implement that decision... And when there's enough info not to have to speculate, don't. We all know the Galor-class was used by the Cardassians. Consideration should be given to other ship classes from other games but there should be a consensus to use them.

When it comes down to dividing up a race's ship timeline, I suggest this guideline:

1) prewarp - newtonian physics is the same everywere and demands a certain design philosophy that depends on the limitations of newtonian drives in use (Chem/Fission/Fusion/M-AM, Pulsed/Continuous, Propellant, etc.)

2) barely warp - warp just discovered and not fully trusted; as such, prewarp design philosophy is still obviously in use.

3) fully warp - warp is trusted and completely integrated into ship design; the race's warp-ship philosophy is founded at this time, based on race's social philosophy.

4) confidently warp - warp is depended upon; ship designs become adventurous.

5) decadently warp - warp is taken for granted; designs become extravagant.

Federation as example:
1) Saturn V, DY-100
2) Pheonix, Valiant
3) NX-01, NCC-1701
4) NCC-1701-A, Excellcior, Miranda, Constellation
5) Galaxy, Prometheus, Soveriegn

EDIT: I'm making assumptions about gameplay, since I've not read all the threads yet. (I'm still catching up.) If I've made a dumb assumption, tell me please.

Perhaps a Valiant should be the limit but no more, because this would mean that you can't move your butt to anywhere for the first 100 turns or something.

I wasn't suggesting that the Valiant or Saturn V or, for that matter, *any* of these ships should be usedin the game. I was just using them to illustrate the thought of defining a race's star-ship lineage by those five steps - the Federation being a one everyone knows.

Well the final technology tree is going to be one big tree, not like in botf. Although the one from botf will probally make it for the beta version. Still got loads of work to do.

ZDarby's ideas are awesome, I'd possibly begin the timeline at the nx era rather than so far back, but the idea of this game is it is truly moddable, you can start with nasa shuttles if someone creates the models.

I really like the whole process of newer ships replacing older ones in this game, with the older ones still performing limited functions until retired.

I always wanted to start post Phoenix; ie you can get around the solar system and, if you're persistent, to the nearest stars but that's pretty much it. You'd then go from there. Ship upgrade and re-assignment is fundamental to this process.

I'm an empire builder: I like starting from scratch and micro-managing until I control the Galaxy. The further back the tech tree, to some extent, the better. I *absolutely love* the idea of needing to micro-manage the supply lines in BotF2... Basically, I like to release my analness (if that's a word) on my vidiot games so I wont be such a wanker in real life. One of the things I liked least about BotF1 was the constriction of choices: you could be militarily clever to some extent but not much more... But that's all off thread.

If I were designing a ship-lineage, I'd start from pre-warp even if those models never got into the game. The back-story is always important to a game, a design, or what have you. Unseen information making a mark on what shows makes things rounded... And "evolving" a design is a tricky subject. Looking at cars or airplanes, it's easy to see the lineage between the predecessors and their kin. But many of the minor differences in shape are fundamental differences in physical knowledge and paradigm. It's hard to (at least for me and, from what I've seen, others) mimic that without it looking like simple morphing. To me that's what makes the StarFleet Museum's Romulan ships so compelling: it actually looks as though outmoded ways of thinking were molded by outside forces, ie the Human - Romulan war. That's also why the ships of Enterprise are so disappointing: nearly zero apparent change design philosophy.

I am *so* glad BotF2 will be easily modded.