Patrol routes was something I really wanted as well when I played BotF again earlier.

That would be nice but I do not have to write the code.

The bigger the map the better I say

3,000, 6,000 systems or 12,000 systems... the more the merrier...

What would be AWESOME if we can do it... is to make the map so big to include every race and some extra room to move around.

It would be a big undertaking... but we can make this a option in the start menu...

Single Player
Single Player - Cannon
Multiplayer
Options

And I think included in this option should set the Federation the year of the NX01 launch. Give the player the ability only to make NX class ships or older vessels.... have the turn timeline reflect Cannon timeline.

So players can experience and participate in history.

I was talking to a friend of mine about this map, and we came up with an interesting idea. What if we threw the expanding universe theory into it? After every 100 turns or something(Probably much much longer), it adds another row of sectors along the edge of the map, with random planets added. Species inhabiting them would be interesting but probably hard to do. So you could basically play indefinitely. Maybe on this type of map setting the Borg would be spawned in as an empire on the fringe of the map after a set amount of turns? But all this is if you wanted to go to the extra effort. Just a thought.

I can picture MStrobel have a stroke programming that one , i suppose it depends on how much of the game is dependent on map size and whether altering it mid game screws everything up.

Regards Wolfe

Purely in theory the idea of having more of the map open up given time seems appealing (if you really do want to play one game FOREVER ) but uh... expanding universe theory? Sure, we've established that the universe seems to be expanding currently, but afaik our galaxy is not, and Mike is probably pleased he isn't programming a game set in the entire universe but rather just a tiny galaxy :p

Well I said throw the expanding universe theory into it. Not because of said theory. Meaning an expanding galaxy instead of a universe.

Putting the Fi into Sci-Fi are we?

Like I said, the gameplay implications would definitely be interesting. But let's get AI in first :p

A little taster of the project I've been chipping away at for the last six months...

http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 781px6.jpg

That is an interesting question that I am not clear on. Does the dark matter clustered in the galaxies truly cancel the expansion of the galaxies while our universe continues to expand?

Yup our Universe is expanding not our Galaxy... not untill a couple of billion years when the Milky Way will collide with our neighboring galaxy creating a single, much larger galaxy.

Hehe I read some scientific article about that a few weeks ago. They called the new Galaxy "Milkeda". I like that name.

Is it just me, or in those maps does the Federation look wayyyyyyy too big? Especially considering the relative power of the Cardassians, Klingons etc - the Federation must be pretty badly inefficient given the size differences.

It also seem rather odd that of the other empires, only the Romulans and Klingons could go to war without crossing the Federation, and we know from DS9 that the Dominion (Cardassia) and the Romulans shared a border.

Since when is area a barromiter on military power? Britain was once the world's greatest military power and it's about
the size of Texas. And we seem to be terribly concerned in contemporary forreign affairs regarding the warmaking abilities
of several minor unnamed third world states.

We know from Fist Contact that the Federation is big (8,000 square light years)

When did it ever say on DS9 that Romulans and Cardassians share a border? It was always implied that the Dominion posed
a reduced threat to the Romulans, presumably because they have the Federation as a buffer.

Isn't anyone going to look at my Sector 001 snap. It took me ages. Feedback. Flames. Praise. PLEASE! Validate me!

Your map does look good. I think the maps in use for these games were drawn up a long time ago. Is the map something an end user can mod?

Looking good so far!

Umm i don't mean to dissapoint but Britain is in no way the size of Texas lol , at 88,000 sq miles it can fit into texas nearly four times at 289,000 sq miles

Which makes it even more impressive!

I stand factually corrected, whilst arguementally vindicated.

But thanks for taking the time to look it up for me.

Not at all. Britain was militarily powerful because it had a massive Empire including Australia, Canada, India, Egypt, much of Africa, and other states. Therefore you'd have to look at the size of the Empire, not the size of Britain. Oh and yes, size is a determining factor of military might - the British Empire, USA, Soviet Union, China - they're all large which means they have access to large amounts of mineral wealth and the people to utilise that wealth, making them powerful.

The point I was making as well is that, come on, the Federation is ridiculously huge compared to the others, and some of the info on that chart is contradicted by official sources. As for the Dominion and Romulans sharing a border, it's mentioned specifically in "In the Pale Moonlight" twice, when first the officers of DS9 mention that a common Dominion tactic is crossing the Romulan border and attacking Starfleet ships patrolling the Romulan Neutral Zone, and then again later in the episode when a fake Weyoun and Damar are discussing plans to invade Romulan territory.

Geopolitical history aside, I think that whoever put that map together was doing so with all
the requirements that plot of the show had made. Subsequently, something's got to give on
a 2D map. Maybe Romulan space could bend over the 'top' of the Federation, creating a
ROM/DOM border if this were hex based, but we don't have that option.

From the show there are 6 general map requirements.

1. Klingons and Federation share a border, a substantial one.
2. Klingons and Romulans share a border.
3. Cardassians and Klingons are in close proximity, if not sharing a border.
4. Romulans and Dominion need to be close (for arguements sake)
5. Ferengi space needs to be close to both Federation and Cardassian space.
6. Enough space for the Federation to hypothetically claim over 100 systems.

With all these requirements in mind, i think that the Geoffrey Mandel maps are a good compromise.
They're also the closest we'll ever come to canon. (official publication)
I'd love to see any alternate designs that fit the paramiters.

On the Alpha Quadrant* map I've been putting together, there's pretty much a parity of size betweenthe major empires. The more expansionist areas of the Federation fall off the map for the sake of space and the arguement that the Federation
would be too big.

Anyway, when you start the game, everyone has one system. Until we start testing any kind of previously designed map,
we don't know how the expansion will proceed. I've tried to design it so that it will resemble canon, but who knows?

*(whenever I say Alpha Quadrant i'm also referring to the Beta Quadrant, as we assume they do on the show.)

have you had a look here: http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartogra ... ration.htm ? Think it's a very detailed site to look some things up though I didn't find the dominion at first glance..

Yeah, that's the basic model in question. A more detailed version was published in 2002
by Geoffrey Mandel as 'Star Trek: Star Charts'. It was written to comply with canon
but went on to be marginaly contradicted by the events in 'Enterprise'

The only major difference between that map and the one that you've linked is the positioning
of Tholia in the Beta quadrant. On a 2D map, there's an arguement that Tholia should be placed
in the Alpha Quadrant; a view I would subscribe to, as does Mr Mandel.

Ha, what DIDN'T 'Enterprise' contradict?

It's not bad, but again really not the best. I should also note that through my research I found that at all times in the show, the Klingons and Romulans are credited as being Alpha-quadrant races.

hello everybody & greetings from germany

I enjoy the original botf game and also this lovely projects like -- Supremacy or Birth-of-the-Empire.

My english isn't that good -- so I try to make it short... I found this Star Trek Map years ago - please take a look!



The Map is very similar to Malvoisin link http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/federation.htm.

Yeah, I'd agree that Klingons and Romulans are ALWAYS mentioned as alpha quadrant powers.
I think the arguement, and it's a very loose fitting one, is that the term 'Alpha Quadrant' is similar
to our contemporary use of the term 'Western Powers'. ie. it doesn't necessarily preclude any other
regions in an alliance.

Other reasons:

Convenience. Could you imagine on the show when discussing the situation and the threat to the
alpha quadrant, the Klingon's pipe up and say, "erm, well we are actually from the beta quadrant,
ourselves..." There's also a quote in ST6 during the meeting at Khitomer, in between the federation
and Klingon space where the Excelsior is in the alpha quadrant and struggles to make it to Khitomer,
in the BETA Quadrant.

Space. It's tough enough trying to fit four of the main protagonists on a 80x40 map. Trying to squeeze
them onto a 40x40 would be ridiculous, just in pure logistics. People may as well just play the original
BOTF.

Canon. Even though rarely mentioned (I count about three off the top of my head), the Beta quadrant
lies at the other side of sector 001. We know that that line intersects the SOL system. Purely for
reasons sake, some major powers must lie on the side we label BETA QUADRANT.

I'll try and think of some more.

It might be a good idea if i upload the entire 80x40 I've laid out so far and maybe conduct a poll to see
if people approve of the overall layout. If there's a majority (2/3rds), we take the Mandel version as gospel.
If not, someones's going to have to provide a convincing arguement otherwise.

AFAIK, the Klingon and Romulan homeworlds are in the Beta quadrant, though as of the DS9 timeline both of their empires extend into the Alpha Quadrant. However, the number of systems or amount of space controlled by each empire is really irrelevant in this situation, as the player won't actually start out with a full empire. They'll start out with their homeworlds and perhaps a couple additional systems. Therefore, all that really matters in a canon map is that the systems are laid out such that their relative positions are somewhat approximate to how they are defined in the canon map images linked above. Systems that were under Federation control in the TV series may end up under the control of another empire in the game. The only real restriction is that you try to keep the empire homeworlds far enough apart to keep the game balanced. That basically means no more than 2 empires per quadrant.

Do not forget the Federation and Romulans share the Neutral Zone, and the Federation/Cardassian DMZ.

Yeah, whoops. Kind of missed the most important ones didn't I. Bet you were worried!

and that the Klingons and Cardassians don't share a border, yet they do have competing interests. This is established in 'Way of the Warrior' (possibly the best episode of Trek ever) where Martok says the Klingon fleet travelled a long way to get to DS9, and then Garak mentions that the Klingons and Cardassians had a military dispute lasting 18 years.

EDIT: That last map posted isn't accurate either. 'In the Pale Moonlight' establishes that Dominion control of Betazed lets them threaten Vulcan, amongst other worlds, and yet Sol is closer on the map - seems odd. Also seems a little odd that the Federation would make first contact with the Ferengi at the opposite side of Federation space compared to where Ferenginar is.