Hi to all!

I'm curious, how does Borg "fit" in the Supremacy?

I did some searching in this forum, but I couldn't find some serious discussion about it, it is only mentioned as "random event".

The random events are being handled by me, but i've only created them purely as "suggestions" - Mike will be creating a way for people to add their own random events into the game in the future, but only a few will be in the game natively. We don't know what his plans for those randoms will be - or even that he will use any of mine - so i'm afraid we'll just have to wait and see. Obviously I hope he'll use mine though.

Here's what I wrote for the Borg random event anyway. I hope you'll like it.

The Borg
They assimilate systems, initially invading with small scout ships and moving up to Spheres, Cubes and Tactical Cubes. Each time that they appear, they will have a larger, more powerful fleet, and there will be no way to completely eradicate them, as they will always return with a new fleet on a random basis. When the Borg first appear, a new option in Diplomacy to set up an Anti-Borg Alliance with the other powers will appear. The chances of this random event occuring increases the longer a game is played, and the higher your tech level is. The Borg will always attack the strongest players first, even if the strongest 'player' is an AI. Once the most advanced Empire is assimilated, the Borg will then move onto the second most advanced Empire, and so on. They will always target technology, rather than power. They will be a much bigger threat than in BOTF.
It seems that we have come to a dark time in our great Federation. At 0800 hours this morning, a fleet in sector _____ engaged a species calling itself the "Borg". This species is not interested in money, politics, or diplomacy. Their only objective is the assimilation of all life, and the destruction of our culture. They seek both our worlds and our people, and will stop at nothing to obtain them. Diplomacy is impossible; they see it as "irrelevant". The time for peace is over. We must combat this grave threat with everything that we have for our very survival. For the first time in its history, our great Federation faces the threat of an enemy that may be unbeatable. If Starfleet fails, there is no hope of survival. It will be the end of peace, the end of the dream that is the Federation.
Like Kahless fought the tyrant Molor, we are now faced with fighting a great evil for our own survival; this time, it is for the survival of our very race. Our Battlecruisers in sector _____ have engaged a powerful new enemy called the Borg. The fleet was decimated; our warriors died in glorius battle...but they died in vain. We have now lost contact with the system the fleet was defending. These Borg care not for honor or glory, only for the taking of our bodies and our Empire. Sharpen your bat'leths, charge the Disruptors. There is battle to be fought. Go in honor, and may you and your house find eternal glory in the great halls of Sto'Vo'Kor!
We have always hid in the shadows, content to plot against our enemies, ready for when they trip, to swoop in and conquer. But we must now emerge from the shadows to combat a grave new threat. The Imperial Navy in sector _____ has encountered the "Borg", a cybernetic species whose only wants are the assimilation of our people and the death of our great Star Empire. We must bind together, and show them the true power of Romulus. Charge the Disruptors, arm the Plasma Torpedoes and disengage the Cloaking devices. We will show the Galaxy what it means to defy Romulus.
As people of great knowledge and power, we have much to be desired by other species. When these species plan to distrupt our way of life, we must confront and exterminate them. The Navy has engaged a species known as the "Borg" in sector _____. They thrive on death and destruction. We must not let them do that to us. We will not let them do that to us. We have always persevered, and so shall we now. We will fight with our last breath to protect Cardassia.
Some have spoken of the great evils that the Founders must fight. Now, we have come to that great battle. Our battleships have engaged a species calling itself the "Borg" in sector _____. This race has only the urge to destroy and conquer, and refer to our Gods as "irrelevant". We must teach these heathens the wrath of our mighty Dominion. With the blessing of the Founders, nothing shall stand in our way.

So they attack sort of like the Antarans in MOO2, weak at first relative to your size than in greater strength as you progress? Also, will assimilated worlds be able to be turned back into your own colonies?

And speaking of assimilating tech, if you steal a ship or take over a colony of another empire (and I know research system is not set yet) you think it would be good idea to gain some new tech (like in MOO2)? Stealing a ship in combat like in MOO2 would also be neat, but I don't know how that would work in a 3D engine (and if it will be turn based or not).

I've never played any of the MOO games so I can't comment on any comparison, but yes, the Borg will get stronger proportionally to the most advanced Empire - regardless of whether that Empire is yours or not, and regardless of whether the strongest Empire is actually the most advanced one. (So for instance the Federation could be the most advanced but the Klingons could have the largest fleet. The Borg would go after the Federation because they are the most advanced)

As the Borg have not yet been impemented, I do not know how assimilated worlds will be handled/shown, but I imagine the planets will be razed and assimilated BOTF-style. You *could* recolonise after wiping out the drones, but the planets themselves would likely be useless. We could perhaps even add in a random where the Borg tech reasserts itself and assimilates the population.

Stealing of tech in the way you describe isn't something that has been discussed to my knowledge...but it is something that *could* be added. We'll have to see what Mike says.

A new feature in Supremacy will be the ability to evacuate colonies though - you will be able to do this if for instance you know the Sun is about to go Nova or a hostile fleet is approaching. Evacuations will require ships (All ships will have a certain evacuation capacity but some will be better than others) and a certain amount of time to prepare. You will be able to add the evacuees to a new colony, and they will randomly take any existing technology with them - you may find your newly formed colony of evacuees has a nice advanced industrial replicator but no power plants to run it or any food buildings for instance!

One thing that I forgot to mention as well is that the Borg won't be your only problem random. There are others...

Species 8472
They pour out of a fluidic gate and destroy everything within sight - including Planets themselves. You have to fight them to stop the invasion. Species 8472 will only appear once the Borg have invaded, although if/when they appear will otherwise be random.
Whilst experimenting with the energy matrix for a new form of propulsion, a team of scientists opened a Quantum Singularity into another dimension; Fluidic Space. They encountered a species that are known only by the Borg designation of "Species 8472". It seems they were angered by our opening of the conduit, and have begun a mass invasion of the sector. The scientists were killed by the invaders, but not before sending a message that the invaders were moving into other sectors. We must combat this grave threat before it gets out of hand.
Glory is on the horizon! We have fought many battles in this Galaxy, and now we must look further away from the homeworld to find enemies worthy of the Empire. Whilst experimenting with a new method of propulsion, our yej'an opened a Quantum Singularity to another dimension. The yej'an and their new technology were destroyed by an invading species, and now they are attacking everything within range. Charge your Disruptors, load the Torpedo bays. There is glory to had from these invaders!
Whilst the Empire would be content with simply conquering this Galaxy, we must be prepared to defend it from attack from those in other Galaxies - and beyond. Whilst our researchers were experimenting with a new type of propulsion system, a stable doorway into another dimension formed. Before we had a chance to study the doorway and find a way to seal it, a hostile species found its' way through and destroyed the research facility. We must show these invaders what the Star Empire is made of!
The Union is constantly in search of the materials it needs to defend itself. Whilst our researchers experimented with a new propulsion system to bring us those resources faster, a Quantum Singularity formed in the reaction chamber. Before the researchers could abort their project, a hostile species invaded the facility. Contact has since been lost with several other facilities in the area. The Navy will teach these invaders a lesson they will never forget. Cardassia can and will defend itself.
The Gods protect us from the evil of the Universe. Whilst our researchers experimented with a new propulsion system that will allow us to spread the message of the Founders further than ever before, a Quantum Singularity to another dimension formed. The facility was destroyed by the evil that came through from another dimension. The Gods have told us that we must combat this evil, else we shall fall from their favour. We must not let that happen. We will not let it happen. We shall send the evil back to where it came from.

Thanks for the info Mattress, didn't know about the possibility of evacuting a colony, but I assumed with all the detail you have been putting into events such as the borg that 8472 would also show up, they all sound really cool.

I highly recommend that you play Master of Orion 2 as it was the predecessor to BOTF. It has a lot of interesting dynamics that differ from BOTF which make gameplay different, I started playing it a lot lately after not playing it for years. Its a fantastic game, and playing it and the Ultimate Dominion Mod III for BOTF have been responsible for a lot of my thoughts on BOTF2 gameplay recently.

I do have the game (MoO2) as well but I haven't played it even back then in the nineties. Don't know, maybe it was because I liked Ascendancy with the Antagonizer mod better (though the AI really still sucked there, but gameplay was just exactly what made me most fun), maybe it was because I wasn't playing that much on the computer, anyway, I'm still not able to play it extensively to test it out. What'd be nice would be a complete MoE-style list of what exact differences from botf to MoO2 can be found in-game and how it's probably be of use for any of the games here.

Unfortunately the MoE list can't be made since MoE has never played any MoO.

If anyone wants to have a go though, I can give you tips on uberposting.

I think I can come up with a list of differences in MoO2 and BOTF as I have already been making a bunch of suggestions coming from MoO2 already . Anyone else who wants to is obviously free to make a list as well, hopefully I can make a list over the weekend.

Terraforming will be similar to MoO2. I'd also like to have a similar kind of witty diplomacy dialogue.

The problem with that system is the Borg will be omnipresent in EVERY game - that takes some of the randomness out of it and could potentially make things less fun. The current system has the Borg appearing with a random chance, although the chances will increase with every turn and tech advancement that anyone makes.

Having a specific Borg system also means that if you wipe it out, they have no chance of coming back if their assimilated systems are also destroyed. And if you've taken them out, that essentially means you've won the game. Where do you go from there?

Having a random system forces players to be vigillant and maintain decent fleets at all times, coz the Borg could appear from anywhere. Same goes for Species 8472, the Sphere Builders, the Crystalline Entity, the Chodak, Space Pirates...lots of randoms. If we were to change it, it would ultimately change the way the game worked. And the system worked well enough in BOTF1.

If people agree with the change though, it can easily be done, seeing as the randoms haven't actually been implemented yet. *Stares at Mike*

You make some good points, moe. But the Borg can be an exception. In my game, I'm thinking of not letting the Borg start, or to have this optional. But to make it a random possibility that some dude on a colony develops Borg technology and that this colony gets assimilated. With this, you have the option to act quickly when they are in your backyard. However there is also the chance that the Borg will have enough breathing room, thus making it possible that they will grow and become the biggest villain of the game.

The same is with the Viidians, i do not intend to make them suffer from the Phage. They will start of as a powerful but peaceful race, similar in nature to the Federation. However a race might get the Phage through a random event, and they will then change their attitude. Attacking and harvesting anyone who is weaker.

I intend to only let this happen with minor races and that such a random event can only happen once a game.

if you give them such a strong homeworld, they are quite soon within your backyard having "colonized" each and every planet available (quite a headstart for them, isn't it). I don't think you could balance this in a way that the borg stay put in their place and only send a small number of cubes once in a while at random other systems...

Well they are a random event, they shouldn't be as powerful from the start. Will the Borg be able to screw up your game? Yes. But you should have an option to disable them for your game. I am not really concerned with balancing aspects. The Borg shouldn't be balanced compared to other empires/races, they should have the potential to become the most feared enemy in a map.

In my game they won't appear each time you play a map, there is only a slight chance that they will do each turn. And their level of technology will grow over time, they won't be as dangerous at the start of their collective. I am trying to make the Borg, unable to research anything or atleast with huge penalties, but able to take over a lot of knowledge from battling other ships.

I was talking about 3 of 12's idea about giving them a homeworld like all the other empires and grow up the regular way.

Lol, well 3 of 12 can always mod the game a bit. I don't think this advantage would be good for the rest of the races/empires. But perhaps 3 of 12, wishes to assimilate the galaxy?

Personally I would FAR prefer the Borg to be treated as a normal empire in the game, rather than a random event. I hated the way they were handled in the original game. The Borg didn't just waltz around the galaxy at random, wiping out planets and moving on, they moved purposefully, assimilating worlds (ie capturing) and moving on to the next, etc. The Borg should be able to be wiped out, but this should be very hard to accomplish, and only realistically possible either early in the game whilst they're still as vulnerable as anyone else, or later when you have developed technology sufficiently advanced to be able to defeat them. The mid-game would likely present a very difficult challenge, requiring exteme investment in ships to take them out. But anyway, if they are not implemented in the game this way, then I'll be modding the game before I even play a round

Actually, I would like to propose something closer to the Star Trek canon.

Consider that the Borg ( ) are isolated (not expand regularly) in a far away part of the map (galaxy) and the AI has them launch surprise attacks from there. Also, they should have scout ships roaming the map (galaxy) in search of new species for assimilation.

Now, how that works: When a Borg scout ship encounters a new race/threat/empire/whatever, unless stoped sends a signal to the Borg Hive, after say 1~2 rounds (for the sake of game playability and the time they need to "assess the data") and after x number of rounds (depending on distance/importance/threat) the Borg appear on the relevant sector and start doing their dirty job!

What do you think?

Cheers,
Savvas

When Matress said that the Borg would be a random event, he didn't necessarily mean that they would just pop in from time to time, assimilate one of your systems, and then go away for a hundred turns. The idea is that the Borg will exist as an AI-controlled entity, but they will not build colonies in the same way as other empires. I agree that the Borg should employ meaningful tactics and assimilate systems systematically. I also agree that they should be difficult to defeat (not weakened like in Voyager). To that end, it makes little sense for them to be a playable empire, since whichever player controls the Borg has a definite advantage (particularly in multiplayer games). There's no reason why they can't work as Martocticvs described, but without being a regular playable empire.

I'd first like to refer back to my text for the randoms. Please bear in mind though that Mike hasn't implemented any of the randoms, and as such they are simply just an idea, albeit one i've spent a lot of time on. (Close to three years now)

The Borg
They assimilate systems, initially invading with small scout ships and moving up to Spheres, Cubes and Tactical Cubes. Each time that they appear, they will have a larger, more powerful fleet, and there will be no way to completely eradicate them, as they will always return with a new fleet on a random basis. When the Borg first appear, a new option in Diplomacy to set up an Anti-Borg Alliance with the other powers will appear. The chances of this random event occuring increases the longer a game is played, and the higher your tech level is. The Borg will always attack the strongest players first, even if the strongest 'player' is an AI. Once the most advanced Empire is assimilated, the Borg will then move onto the second most advanced Empire, and so on. They will always target technology, rather than power. They will be a much bigger threat than in BOTF.

Notice the bit that I hilighted in orange? I always intended the Borg to be intelligently controlled; random, meaningless attacks is a big no-no for me. They should always attack IF they feel the Collective as a whole would benefit from the attack (Be it by acquiring more Drones and/or technology) but if such a benefit does not exist, then they should be reclusive and bide their time until the benefit of an attack becomes great enough again.

This would then mean that the Borg would care about Planets rather than territory, so I imagine the AI would have to handle them a bit differently to the other Empires. To that end, how do you intend to control the Borg, Mike? Obviously i'm not asking for uber detail sicne you haven't programmed it yet, but do you think you are going to create a personalised AI system specifically for the Borg (And Species 8472/Sphere builders?), or will the AI be built on a series of parameters or something that can be tweaked to make the AI control the Borg in a Borg-like manner?

As for the bit that I highlighted in red, that was just my thoughts on it at the time of writing; I will update it based on how Mike and the community feel about that specific point. These randoms are far from complete, and are certainly not set in stone. I might be writing them, but i'm certainly not dictating them.

Well, that reminds me of Medieval Total War, where after I had slayed all the members of a faction a lost hair of that faction would appear randomly after say 50 years and bitch-slap me... Pretty annoying don't you think?

Personally, I disagree with this. The Borg are a bit opportunists, as they will attack anyone who has something they want or poses a threat (not necessarilly the greatest). I can give you many examples of this if you want:
1) In Voyager, episode Dark Frontier part II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Frontier#Part_II) they were seen attacking (with a Cube) just a single species. This doesn't mean that that species was the strongest player in the sector. The same goes with the El-Aurians (Guinan's species).

2) Also in Voyager, episode Hope and Fear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_and_Fear) the same thing with above happens, but now I remember being mentioned that a swarm of Cubes attacked them. Still they were a single species, neither an empire nor the strongest players (at least not mentioned to be).

3) Regarding the opportunism I remember the episode in Voyager with the \Omega particle where it was mentioned that the Borg assimilated a series of species (going from one to the next) in search of information for the particle.

Cheers

Yeah, I wasn't meaning that the Borg should be playable - I agree they shouldn't be; but I do feel quite strongly that the Borg should be represented properly on the map - ie have space like any other empire. To be honest, the Borg were the thing that most annoyed me (and when I say annoyed, I am committed an act of gross understatement ) about the original game. They just popped up. It didn't matter that they were random appearances without purpose, what really annoyed me was that they ONLY existed in that way. You couldn't wipe them out. You couldn't attack them. All you could do was have enough of your best ship type available to be grouped to throw at them and hope it was enough - if it wasn't you were probably dead and that was that (ie the cubes were also overpowered from a gameplay point of view).

I'm not suggesting that the Borg should be easy, but that they should be a proper part of the game, not just a random event that's only ever going to serve to annoy the hell out of people. I really like the ideas that have been put forward here about how the Borg might behave - taking notice of you or another race when they encounter you, waiting a while until they have analysed and assessed you, and only going after you when they have a reason to do so (ie if you have better technology than them, but they think they can successfully attack you). Obviously the Borg AI needs to be different from the regular powers' AI, and they should not be playable. But for me, them having space that you can invade, planets you can conquer and ultimately, if you are willing to throw your whole economy behind the effort, wipe them out and hence stop any further attacks, would add immensely to the strategy value of the game. A random event that is basically a near-invincible opponent that you can't ever stop is just a game breaker, as it was in the original game.

The random element - and I would say pseudo-random here - should be when they decide to start going after you. But obviously again from a gameplay point of view they have to send a force that you at least have a chance of defeating, otherwise it will be akin to the game deciding to just smite the player into the dust and be done with it Really though, the Borg have to be weakened for the game else they will overrun the galaxy every single time. They need to be strong, but not so strong that if you lose one battle you are done for completely (and this was usually the case in the original game).

If you implement them that way, it would be something like the Antarans in Master of Orion. They need to be confined into a 3-dimensional prison area of the galaxy where they cannot meaningfully escape and send thousands of cubes which they certainly have towards the alpha quadrant races before the "gate" was opened and some race decided to attack them. Something like this in order to not get overwhelmed by 18x10 Class M Planets and their 10-12 cubes per turn production rate . How you explain that logically is beyond my imagination for the moment. Maybe with neclecting borg behaviour or that they want to invade species 8472 territory first but then abandon that mission to attack the "solits" .

There is no need to have them confined, it is enough if their atack force is limited to say 1~2 cubes per attack per ~40 turns for the sake of playability (so that you have a decent chance). The other 1000's of Cube could be stationed in the Unicomplex or have them roam around within the Borg territory so that it is very difficult to attack their home systems.
I agree, but the case I mentioned was special as they were looking for something specific (info for the \Omega particle). So, say if the Borg need a tech in order upgrade some of their facilities and know that the Romulans have it, why not have them attack the Empire despite that the Romulans may be say the 3rd force in the game and not the 1st.

I am curious what you think of these ideas:
http://star-trek-games.com/forum/index.php?f=24&t=63&view=viewtopic

Hmm, my humble opinion is that
seems to be what everyone agrees about the Borg. Especially the second enhances playability but strays a bit from Star Trek.

This idea, while novel to say the least, is a "bit" off the canon... The origins of the Borg are unknown (some speculation exists however).

The Borg increase numbers through assimilation. Nevertheless, the shows have shown maturation tubes with babies etc . So, I think this is open to interpretation.

Again these two seem pretty standard.

I disagree; the Borg do research. Remember, the Voyager episode with the \Omega particle: it was mentioned that dozens of cubes were destroyed while trying to stabilize the molecule. This seems to me like they were doing some serious research ... But the amount of research the Borg are allowed to do could depend on say a difficulty option (no research for easy/ a lot for hard etc)

Quote:

# The Borg prefer expansion through assimilation, however they are able to expand with the use of terraforming and colonization. They will only do this, when there aren't any advanced civilizations around.
# They will not assimilate races who are less advanced in all technology areas. (Hope this can be done)

Again this seems standard.

Quote:

The Borg will not return after total defeat.

I need a definition of "total defeat" here. We mean complete and [i]real defeat/extermination or like in Medieval Total War where a lost hair would reappear after ~40 years? The latter could be staged like: a small scout ship evaded our sensors/some Borg boarded our ship while the shields were down (like in First Contact) etc (so there is no total defeat... )

Cheers

I think most of that would work well, the exceptions being the borg being activated on a planet - it would be better if they had a starting planet same as everyone else, but perhaps not exhibiting Borg behaviours initially... I do agree that the Borg should have research handicaps though - there may be some signs they conducted research from the shows, from a gameplay point of view coupling that with their technology assimilation abilities would give them too much of an advantage. They should be allowed to conduct some research, just nowhere near the extent of the major powers. Early stage colonisation is probably essential - but they should only be allowed to colonise so many systems - probably dependent on the galaxy size. I definitely agree that a total defeat (which I take to mean standard strategy conquest) should be permanent. If you spend vast resources (and it would take that) to wipe them out, having them reappear 15 turns later in a distant part of the galaxy where you have no influence would be a game breaker again. It's fun once per game, twice is too much.

From gameplay aspect i don't see any valid reason why Borg shouldn't be playble race. Good balancing will do the trick. I think " Borg as playble race" is what people actually want.