Hi. I finally managed to get to try this game, and I'm impressed! Looks really good. Haven't dug too deep into it yet, but let me just make a couple of comments.

The CREDITS.txt file mentions a Warhorn Extreme! v1.ogg track, but it is not included in the zip?

There's a few typos/inconsistencies in the Encyclopedia descriptions, is there a thread explicitly for that in these forums? Sorry, haven't had the time to search for it yet.
(for example, Races > Humans : of the their culture)

There are a couple of things that (conceptually) look... odd.

Industry:
Apparently systems have a base industry rating equal to their population, and then you can assign them again from the Labor Pool - to industry again! So these people work double shifts?

Planetary bonuses:
I understand the system wide colonization, and how it affects production. It's just weird that Sol for example, having 3 planets with +15% energy, affects *all* reactors in the system, effectivelly giving them +52% each (they're rated at 11 output, Type 1s produce 16.7 or so). Besides, they being *Fusion* Reactors, I'm not sure why they'd have higher output in hotter planets Maybe this would work better if it only applied to solar type generators?
What I'd like to see was the number and type of buildings buildable on a system depending more on the number and type of planets in that system - for example, a system with 2 oceanic planets could build 2 Desalinization Plants (hope I got that right), one for each planet. In this light, maybe you could only build one Reactor per (non-GasGiant) planet in the system, and with the example above in mind, only those in Mercury/Venus/Mars would get the +15% Ene bonus (say the first 3 built in the system get the bonus, to make it easier).

Output:
I can't quite figure the exact output of buildings. It seems there are some smallish inconsistencies between the descriptions and the actual outputs. Here's the numbers I got for actual outputs (descriptions) (bonuses) for the very first turn of the game with the Federation, on Sol system:
Type 1 Automated Farm = 29.3 (25) (+15%/Earth) [25+15%=28.75]
Grade 1 Fabrication Plant = 11.7 (10)
Type 1 Fusion Reactor = 16.7 (11) (+15%/Mercury,Venus,Mars=+52%)
Type 1 University = 14 (12)
Type 1 Intel-Net = 8 (8)
Only the Reactor and the Intel-Net are matching, what am I missing? Any other bonuses? Is there a manual somewhere with the details?
Also, the first population "unit" that is assiged to one of the 1st 3 building types above seems to produce 1 less output unit than the following units. Not sure if it's a rounding problem or what.

I have a few more observations, but I want to check them thoroughly first, and dig around the forums before posting. Anyways, a very promissing project.

I could think fusion reactors on hotter environmentally worse planets with extremely hot planet cores have less problems maintaining the high temperature needed to do hot fusion (like in the sun) and can possible be "online" a little while longer over time than reactors on other planets which loose temperature faster and need "recharging". Also possible that a lot of the reaction takes place using the higher temperatures and possibly higher gravitational pressure which reduces the needed temperature for igniting the plasma in the planet's hotter core.

You could, but it doesn't really make sense
Not going to argue, but what makes you think that Mercury/Venus/Mars have a higher *core* temp than Earth? I think you're confusing a lot of things, stars and planets have little to do with each other for one. Reactors don't work based off the planet's temp either, for two That'd be nice, depending on the whims of the planet's core. Anyways, doesn't really matter. Just that the bonus seems to be *environmental* temp, not core.

BTW, my above comments were based on the september release, just found the december one.

I wasn't thinking of Mercury, although you asked for them, more about other planets with other specs. you're right the millions of kelvin temperature needed to do fusion are way higher than anything a planet core reaches. Somehow I had higher numbers in mind but they are rather cold, only 7K for Earth for example. So even if one could somehow use the core to help heat the plasma it would have next to no effect.

seems like the planet can't really help increasing the output of such a reactor, the only factors would be mass density gravitational force but if that's too high, people can't live on that planet and maybe a planet core nearly as hot as the sun but I think living conditions on such a planet would be Class Y - like .

Hey .Iceman, welcome to the forums!

IThe discussion over the planets seems like a minefield, so i'm gonna ignore it for the time being and return to your original questions.

...

You're not the first person to mention the missing music track. I've never heard of this file either, other than in the credits. Mike originally used music from X3: Reunion for his game, but has since replaced this with music from another, more legitimate (But unknown) source. This music track - or at least the reference to it - has probably just fallen through the net somewhere.

If there isn't a thread on something, then make one. We're not posting Nazi's here, and people will always reply to any points people make. I'm generally the person in charge of the implementation of the game database though, so you can also PM me any updates you think the game needs and i'll add them for you. I've got a big image update and some other minor content updates ready for Mike anyways, so I can always wait a few extra days to fix any typos you've spotted.

The base industry rating is there so that systems will always produce *something*. Because of the way the game works, if a system suffers a massive population crash (War, famine, disease...) and ends up with a population less than 10, they would never be able to recover unless they had a tiny base amount of industrial and food output. This system is there purely to avoid such problems when systems have such low populations. I know it seems like a wierd concept, but the game needs it that way to avoid such bugs. BOTF actually had the same system for the same reason.

The system bonuses don't work precisely how I would like them to. 15% is the standard bonus rate the game uses - and there's no way to change it to another rate, eg. 20%. I've already asked Mike to change it if possible. The game treats a solar system as a single entity though - it would be very difficult to split the planets up from a programming point of view for something that would actually result in very little change in gameplay. It is therefore highly unlikely that Mike will change this particular part of the game. For this same reason, you can only have one of a planet-specific building type in a system because the game treats the system as a single object, rather than taking the planets into account, so you can't have two Aquaculture centers in a system with two oceanic planets. And I know this because I asked Mike a few months ago.

Basically, all this means that when you get a bonus, eg. 15%, you get that bonus applied only once, regardless of the number of planets. So it should be amount + 15% only. There are a few other things that are taken into account by the calculations though. I'm not sure what these are off the top of my head, but they DO explain the inconsistant outputs. Mike explained it to me once a long time ago. Unless he posts here to explain the calculation though, you'll just have to accept it.

Thx MoE, this looks like an interesting place.

Re Base Industry Rating
Wouldn't it be easier to have a minimum pop of 10 (or whatever) in a system? Kind of a bunker where the elite pop would hide. Or a fixed innate industry output (like an automated factory, zero pop maintenance). Systems already have a base food production rating of 10 (and Deuterium), regardless of buildings, so it'd be kinda logical. Having them have double jobs (I work in farming during the day, but I double as a scientist during the night ) is strange, and it increases as pop grows.

Colonization
A bit of a tangent, about colonizing a system, haven't really studied it thoroughly yet, but I recall this one where my initial pop was 52(/250) [when my homeworld had like 80... incidentally colony ships don't cost pop which is also weird]. I think other colonies had lower initial pops, is this a random number or something? Related to max pop maybe? That'd also be weird, a colony ship should always carry the same amount of people - which could go up with level. Haven't checked initial buildings on new colonies, will check if it is race dependent like with homeworlds (Cardassians have more initial buildings IIRC).

Re Solar systems
That's why I said I understand the concept, Lost Empire: Immortals (I was a beta tester for it) uses system wide colonization too. Even though the bonuses look nice the 1st time you play the game, I think you'll forget about them pretty soon. I think those bonuses should be intrinsic to the system, and not explicit. What I mean is that upon system generation, the slots for each type of building would be capped according to the planetary composition of the system. A system with 5 solid planets would have 5 Energy slots (plus specials for planetary types); if only 3 of those planets would have favorable conditions, the system would only have 3 Food slots (plus specials); etc. Then the system itself would get an intrinsic bonus to Deuterium for each Oceanic planet, to Dilithium for each Crystalline planet, to Food for each Jungle and Terran planet, to Raw Materials for each Volcanic planet, to Industry for each Desert planet, etc. There could also be penalties for Arctic, Barren, Toxic, etc.
This could have some problems I guess, for smaller systems.

Re Bonuses
Not sure if you mean multiple energy bonuses should only yield +15%? They're cumulative right now (3 planets = 1.15*1.15*1.15 = 1.52).
About the inconsistencies, I figured some part of it. Racial bonuses, I guess. They just don't seem very consistent. For example, the Klingons should have a strong industry as per their description (for war, granted), but their Industry is actually average [maybe it's just because their shipyards don't consume any energy?!] , and since they start with Morale = Displeased, their industrial output is lower than normal (initially their industial buildings generate 9 points out of the standard 10). Also, those bonuses don't seem to be "round" numbers, hence my comments.



A few more things:

What are Credits used for exactly? I wish there was an Empire screen like in LE:I, where you can check all the details for income, expenses, etc. A System Overview screen would also be handy, with colonized and colonizable systems' stats.

Unexplored Systems
It seems that they'll read as Neutral if they're empty, and they'll show nothing if they're inhabited? Isn't that a give-away?

Dominion:
Their home "system" reads Omarion Nebula Nebula (double Nebula).

The Cardassians and Dominion have more efficient shipyards, though the Klingons are described as having a good military industry (their shipyards don't consume energy as stated above though).
I think the description for the Klingons also hints at them having an advantage in something to the effect of Raw Materials, but they actually have below average, with only the Cardassians having lower. Maybe I misunderstood the text though.

The Cardassians and Dominion have better power structures (14 vs the regular 11), is that intended?

Klingon structures:
Type 1 Processing Plant upgrades to Type 2 Processing Plant and Type 2 Matter Furnace
Type 1 Matter Furnace upgrades to Type 2 Matter Furnace and Type 2 Fusion Reactor (they have it in their tech tree too)
Are these intended?

Warning! I'm really anal about QA!

Klingon race description:
"Qo´noS (pronounced Kronos; an M-class planet."
It's actually a L-class planet in the game, a Jungle planet Also, that semi-collon should be replaced by a closing parenthesis.

Instances where Qo'noS is mistyped:
Planet popup: Qo'nos
Galaxy view: Qo'Nos
System view: Qo'Nos, Qo'nos Prime

I think I saw Kirk's name having a typo too, Jame Kirk or something, related to the Amerind system - Human race description maybe.


Had an issue (january release) when retiring from a game and starting another one in the same session. I got an error message, and couldn't play anymore. Had to shut the game down and restart. Don't know if it's related to map size (medium+), will have to check.

isn't it strange that a farmer can switch to become a fore-front scientist in just about a turn's time? And next turn you could turn him into a fusion reactor engineer? Particularly if you consider a turn's time varies from 2 years early in the game to 2 weeks in late-game

I guess the work shifts aren't really realistic. You should have lag times when assigning people to new jobs to accomodate for learning phases. Additionally you should have basic output in all sections since usually built universities aren't empty once built and the 10 billion inhabitants on that planets can't really all work on farms and industries only, there are people amongst them who'd like to do science or work in the intel sector so it's more a crude simplification the way this worker allocation works .

Don't forget golden rule:

"Game first, simulation second"

Regards Wolfe

heh, I even came up with an explanation for shifting workers arbitrarily: They all get bio-chips with all information needed and regularly updated implanted in their brains so they are universally-qualified workers willing to do everything you assign them to. Pretty much like drones actually . And basic output is zero since fore-front research and intel stuff is exclusive to bio-chip-enhanced workers only.

Sad thing is this is the only explanation that ever made sense when I asked for other explanations in our german forums..

Damn the United Federation of Borg! Will their secret agenda of bio-chip implantation never end?

...

Precision isn't really what we're aiming for with the game, .Iceman; what we want is a game that is based on BOTF but is improved where it needs to be; follows canon where possible; is fun to play; and is both simple and complex to play at the same time. That's a lot of things that have to be reconciled at the same time, and sometimes that just isn't possible. As it's a game though, we will almost always sacrifice a bit of realism/canon for the sake of an improvement in gameplay. It just wouldn't be fun if realism was all that mattered.

...

When it comes to the intricacies of the system outputs, you might be better off speaking to Mike; as I said in my last post, he explained it all to me once long ago, but i've forgotten the specifics. It all made sense to me at the time, although I admit maths isn't my strongest area, so Mike would be able to explain things better than me. Just send him a PM.

...

The points that you've mentioned about colonization are the result of legitimate reasons though. A long time ago, we discussed the possibility of moving populations around, but we quickly came to realise this would become an exploitable situation; people would only build colony ships in systems with the highest growth rates, and would be able to recover from the population loss very quickly. They would then be able to churn out colony ships from such systems and use them to bolster their colonies. So we eventually decided that not allowing colony ships to move populations around in this way would be the lesser of two evils.

...

As for the initial population numbers, i'm not really sure how the game works the numbers out, but I do know that the game takes population growth into account from the exact turn that you colonize the planet - so there might be eg. 1 population block in your colony ship, but they start having babies from the exact moment they land on the planet, rather than waiting for a turn to have them. Since each system has different overall growth rates, it will seem like the initial starting populations is random. Like I said though, I don't know what the precise calculations are so there may be more to it than that.

...

Again, as I said in my previous post, the game only takes systems as a whole into account; planet types are only really taken into account by the build list. If you have an Oceanic planet in the system, then you can build an Aquatic Deuterium Plant, which gives you more Deuterium per turn. If you don't have an Oceanic planet, then you can't build that structure. End of story. Besides, having eg a single power plant on each planet would be a concept that I wouldn't have thought that you would want - it would be unrealistic, and would make planetary infrastructure extremely susceptible to Earthquakes, Terrorism, or whatever. But reading your posts so far, you seem to be a person who wants realism in the game.

...

As for the energy bonuses, yes, I did mean that multiple energy bonuses would only yield a single bonus. Mike told me a month or three ago that the game was unable to calculate multiple bonuses in a single system; if the game now appears to be taking such things into account, it is a change that I was unaware of, so sorry about that. I mod the game more than play it at the moment.

..

Whilst the stats of the structures have been implemented by myself, the actual database of information was created by Dafedz. You can find his database Here.

Dafedz did NOT give the Empires any bonuses in production fields; the actual output of each of the empire structures is identical; for instance, a Federation Elite Academia (Type 11 University) gives +70 research. The Cardassian Type 11 Science Bureau also has a +70 research output. I personally do not agree with this system, and will likely change it in the future, although if I do I would release it as a mod or something. Dafedz has put a hell of a lot of effort into the database, and i'm sure he had his reasons for unifying the outputs of the empire structures, but i'm not sure what those reasons are. I personally felt it was more important at this early stage of the game to implement workable stats that people can play with and provide feedback on. We can easily make changes later on once people on the forums reach a consensus on what changes they want.

...

Thanks for pointing out the Klingon shipyards don't have any energy requirements. I've just fixed it.

...

Credits *will* have the same use that they had in BOTF; they will be be used to maintain ships, to pay your officers, pay for fuel, pay for repairs, whatever. Currently the ships do not have any maintenance costs though, which is why the credits currently appear useless. Credits will also be used to hurry (Not instant-build) production, and will have uses as bribes. In an improvement on BOTF though, bribes won't work on all races - in fact some races will actually be offended by it. It will be up to players to figure out which those races are. (Obviously the Vulcans will be offended and the Ferengi will love it...)

...

A system overview screen is something that a lot of people - including myself - have actually asked for in the past. Mike *does* intend to implement one, he just hasn't decided yet exactly what info will be in this screen and how it will be presented.

...

Exploration has been a problem in Supremacy for a long time. Unexplored (But inhabited) systems used to tell you what race inhabited them. Thankfully this bug has been fixed, but it took about 11 different updates to actually get it working as intended. Mike won't be happy that the opposite is now true and you can tell whether a system is inhabited purely by the lack of information.

...

The Dominion homesystem problem should already have been fixed; I included the fix in my Christmas update. It may be Mike didn't include the update Nebula name file for some reason. Anyways, the bug occurs because the game automatically adds the word "Nebula" onto the names of the Nebulae. In the case of the Omarion Nebula though, it is incorrectly already named "Omarion Nebula" instead of simply "Omarion" in the Nebula names file. The game adds "Nebula" onto the end of "Omarion Nebula" and you end up with it being labelled as "Omarion Nebula Nebula". I'll include the fixed Nebula name file with my next update to make sure Mike includes it this time.

...

As i've said before, i'm going to perform an overhaul of the ships in the game, so the current stats of the ships will certainly be different. They will likely undergo a lot of re-balancing in the future as well as the numbers have only been worked on paper, so don't expect my overhaul to be the only overhaul they will undergo. I'm actually discussing the stats of the ships with CdrWolfe and Fireball via PM at the moment and we're almost definitely going to beef up the hit points of the ships as currently even late-game ships can be taken out in only one or two hits in the combat system - even the Borg have a problem in that respect.

...

I don't understand what you mean about the 14 power structures. All of the empires have access to 16 specific power structures, plus a number of other structures that have an additional energy bonus of some kind.

...

I've already fixed the Klingon facility problem and the update will be part of the next release. ALL of the facilities are capable of being upgraded into the facilities of ALL of the other empires so that if an empire gains control of a system that has alien technology, they can "upgrade" it into their own tech. (Unless the facilities are already at tech 11 level) If the Klingon's are able to build both Matter Furnaces and Fusion Reactors, something has gone wrong with their tech tree. I've done a quick check and can't find anything wrong though, so it may be i've already fixed the problem without realising it.

...

I've fixed the Klingon race description and system/planet names. I had already fixed the Jame Kirk problem though. You're not the only person who hates mistakes like that.

...

The retiring bug is a known issue; it's actually working better than it did before the Christmas update, as it would do it almost every time you tried to retire. Mike must have implemented a partial fix for it during the last update, or you just happened to be unlucky enough for it to affect you that one time.

Guys, guys, cool down, and give me some credit will ya? I'm not new to gaming, I'm a veteran 4X (among other things) player, I know all about the golden rule and whatnot. You didn't get my point. In *this* game, population yields *both* _default_ industry output (even when *not* assigned) *and* (as in, at the same time) another type of output (according to assignment). That's all I meant. So they're actually having double output. I think it's understandable where I'm coming from, right?
Sorry if I didn't put it correctly though, english is not my native language.

Sorry if it sounded like I was criticizing or anything, I wasn't. I think the concept is pretty cool, I'm just pointing out stuff that I'm finding odd. BTW, I haven't played BotF, so take my comments as a fresh view on the whole thing.




I'm not sure how this makes it better. So you can build ships anywhere. What's the benefit of that? For one, it doesn't make those high pop growth system more valuable - in that respect of course. I actually think that'd be a nice thing.
Notice that I didn't mention moving pop around. I just remarked that colony ships are insta-pop creators. They're pretty cheap (it's probably not final), and they create colonies that are half the size of your homeworld... both in pop and in structures. BTW, colony ships create colonies with 50 pop (plus growth), so my observation was incorrect.
Also notice that the other pop issue (double productivity) makes every system a potential ship producer. Not saying it's right or wrong, these are just observations.




Depends on what you perceive to be a power plant (or any other structure really). You could see it as a unified power generation facility, on a global scale. It's a game, you know Kidding.
Still kidding, but if you have 10 pop (is that billion?) working on a power plant, don't you think it must be a pretty huge thing?
Yes, I'm pretty keen on realism, BUT I don't let that interfere with gameplay. Nowadays people seem to use this as an excuse all the time (not aimed at you, just a remark), and forget to try to conciliate both. That's what I do. If I don't feel I'm doing things on a base of logic while playing, then I don't bother playing at all. I mean, this type of game. I go play Mahjong instead




Well, like I mentioned above, the energy structures for the Car and Dom have an output rating of 14 instead of the standard 11 for everyone else. And there must be something affecting outputs, since the Federation has their level 1 research facilities generate 14 RPs (and the Romulans 13), while the rated output is 12 (with Stable Morale). There are other examples.




Figures as much, good to know.




Checked it again last night, and it's true, you can tell where minors are.




Car and Dom level 1 structures are rated at 14 energy instead of the standard 11 (all other empires).

Population:
Actually, it's even worse. It's *triple* output, now that I think about it. They build structures, they do their currently assigned job, *and* they are also in orbit working on the shipyards...

Starmap:
Holding down the left mouse button in the starmap could drag it around. It'd make it a lot easier to navigate the galaxy.
The +/- keys could zoom in/out the starmap too.
The starmap's background (\Backgrounds\Default.png) really makes it confusing sometimes. Maybe an option to remove it completely?
When a nebula is detected in the starmap, the mouse-over popup in the lower system display shows the name of the nebula (Briar Patch Nebula for example), but everywhere else it shows as Unexplored System. Just an observation.

Structures:
Is the Primitive Farm actually in the game? Maybe it's only for Backward/Primitive tech minors?

Asteroids:
I think they don't have any impact in the game yet (unless system creation uses them for Raw Materials stat or something). Haven't seen one yet, but maybe there could be a (orbital) structure [Remote Mining Station/Dock/Facility/whatever] that generates more Raw Materials only buildable on systems with Asteroids. Maybe something attachable to a Shipyard or space station (requisite). Sorry if there's already something like that.

Trade Routes:
I established trade routes with 2 minors. One of them had no image available (the Zalkonians, Missing Image). I know some images are still being worked on, that's not the point. But when they agreed to establishing the routes, going to my Inbox in the Diplomacy screen I had a message from the other minor ("I think we can agree to that"), and even though I had a reply from the Zalkonians, there was no message and the lower window was empty (no Embassy text/logo/etc). Just checking if it's related - I don't think it should be? The messages came in the same turn, and the Zalkonians' was the last (bottom) of the two.

\Images\Insignias
Just a heads-up, I'm sure you're aware, still some alternate images there. The betazoids arre using betazoids_alternate as default I guess (there's no betazoid.png).

I just played the game to see what you were criticizing us about. Our poor feelings were hurt by that... ( )

I'll admit that I didn't totally understand what you were referring to in my previous post. BOTF had a default output of 10 industry regardless of whether any of your population were working in industry, and I assumed it was the same in Supremacy. But Supremacy produces 1 industry point for every 1 population in a system - so yes, people are working double-shifts in that respect. But if we're making them work double-shifts already, we certainly don't care that they are working triple shifts. They're only slaves afterall.

Ok, I'll mention this point to Mike, as the system means that some of the low-level buildings will need their industrial costs bumped up slightly - some of the early buildings can be built instantly if you have a high enough population, even if you don't have any of them working in industry.

...

The current low costs of the colony ships almost definitely isn't final. I haven't compared their stats with the database yet, but if there's any differences then i'll be updating them to reflect the stats in the database. As for the colony ships insta-creating population, I again misunderstood you. Don't worry, your english is extremely good, it was just me reading your post too quickly.

Having population moved from a system by the colony ships is an idea I suppose; it may add some slight tactical reasoning to player's decisions about where/when to construct colony ships, so i'll mention this to Mike along with the industrial output.

...

I haven't actually figured out what the population numbers really mean; they never technically made sense in BOTF either, so let's just forget about those. BOTE (Birth of the Empires, one of the other games that is being developed as a potential successor to BOTF) actually has numbers represented as "mrd". BOTE is a German-developed game and mrd is apparently an abbreviated version of the German word for millions, so in that respect, their game is more "realisitic". Anyways, whether you think the population is in millions or billions, it is a lot of people. But this is where I use the gameplay excuse. It's easier to keep it simple.

...

The energy outputs are a mistake on my part; a month or two ago, we realised the energy output of the structures was far too low, so I bumped up the output of the structures by 25% to make life a little easier. I've just checked though and it seems I somehow forgot to bump up the output for the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans. God knows how I forgot to do it. I've bumped up the outputs for all of the empire facilities now, so the number (For the energy at least) will now be the same. If there are any other variations, they are likely typos on my part as well, as I don't know of Mike adding in any race-specific variables. Like I said though, I will probably start differentiating the outputs of the empires before long, so either way they will start having unique bonuses.

I actually thought you were referring to the physical number of structures that the empires could build when you mentioned the energy structures though, so sorry for that.

...

I'll let Mike know about the exploration problem. I'll make some screenshots for evidence. He's not gonna like it though...

...

Mike is looking for navigation ideas, so i'll mention your map navigations ideas to him. He's also looking for ideas to improve game performance - he recently said he would add in an option to turn off the planet animations, so I imagine he will add in the option of turning off the background as well.

...

The Primitive Farm IS in the game. It is the default food structure, so if you lose all your food buildings (War, sabotage...) then they're quick and easy to build so you can minimise population loss through starvation. The default food start-of-game building is the level 1 building though, which is why you don't see it. You can assume the empires are no longer dealing with primitive technology.

...

Asteroids do have an impact on the game, because they are a requirement for several of the game structures, such as Asteroid Harvesters, Asteroid Sweepers, and the Geo-Survey Commission. We are also *hoping* to have Asteroids present in the combat system - but they would only be present if combat took place in a system with an Asteroid belt. Systems with Asteroid Belts will produce more raw materials once these special structures are built.

...

The missing image for the Zalkonians is definitely a mistake; all of the minors should have images now. I've added in the missing image and will send the update to Mike with my (Quickly growing) current one.

Diplomacy is currently a work-in-rogress though, and will be heavily tied into the game AI once that is complete - so until that happens there will likely be a lot of wierdness during Diplomacy. But i'll let Mike know about it.

...

I've already deleted the alternate images and added in the missing images; I noticed the problem last week. The alternate images shouldn't have been put into the game in the first place, but should have instead been put on our sharepoint file hosting service for other people to use in their own games. I must have got the folders mixed up when I was transferring the images, so that's my fault. Unfortunately, the game updater can't delete files, so the only way to really get rid of them is to manually delete them yourself; the game auto-updater will replace or add images that *should* be there so this won't be a problem once Mike has put my update on the update server.

*Edit - err....Iceman, how exactly can you tell where the minor races are? I just played the game and I couldn't tell where they were. The old problem where the race name was displayed in the star system has definitely been fixed - systems are totally blank until they are explored, so I really have no idea how you can know where a minor race is.

*Edit the second - nevermind, I jsut noticed trade routes are present in inhabited systems. I've told Mike.

Owww, a bad start on my part...




Hehe, now let's hear your explanation on how they can be working both on the ground an in space at the same time...
Somehow I imagined there should have been a 10 industry base, as there was a 10 food base. That made some sense really, each system having a base set of stats (an automated "core" of the colony). How about removing the 1 ind/pop default and bumping up industry from structures?




Exactly. Kinda defeats the whole idea of a recent colony... Also, maybe the # of structures a colony ship builds by default is a bit too much?
Another thought: Colony ships cost Officers, but no pop. Yet, they disappear when they colonize. Are the Officers returned to your pool? Shouldn't colony ships cost pop *instead* of Officers? Would make more sense. Officers should be for combat ships I think.




Or by the Transport ships Whatever they're for, haven't gotten to building one yet.




I was just defending my point, wasn't being picky about the numbers




I meant that the actual outputs vary with race (besides Morale, can´t find any other explanation), not the structure stats. All the basic structures now have the same stats (except shipyards, Rom cost more Ene, Car/Dom have higher Efficiency).




But if I can't build it... Not of much use to me. I guess it's obsoleted because the game starts with level 1 already.




Hehe, just ignore me. I haven't looked hardly at the tech tree yet, it still seems a bit chaotic to me, and the missing images don't help. I'll probably read the database, it might be easier.



Click on an unexplored system. To the right, where the name of the race should be, if it says Neutral, it's empty. If it doesn't say anything, there's a minor there for sure

Q. It's Q's fault. Damn him.



The base 10 food was actually my idea, and was only implemented a month or two ago. It was implemented to get around a problem where if a system suffered from a big loss of population (War, famine, sabotage...) and ended up with less than 10 population, it would be impossible for that population to recover, since no food could be produced without the presence of special structures, which couldn't be guaranteed.

I've asked if Mike could change the system, or if there is a specific reason why he has done it.

...



The default number of structures is programmed in, rather than an editable option. Mike is the only one that can change that particular feature - if it is indeed changeable.



I've updated my PM to Mike with this comment since he hasn't read it yet.



Transports are for capturing planets with. Since you can't invade systems yet, the transports currently have no purpose.



The variations are typos; they *shouldn't* vary - at least not yet. Like I've already said, i'll probably start differentiating the stats later so the Cardassians are more efficient etc.



It IS obsoleted because the level 1 building is already there. Think of the primitive farm as being a level 0 building if it is easier. If one of your systems was attacked/sabotaged and you lost all of your food buildings, you would need to build primitive farms them upgrade them all they back up, so in those instances you would be able to build them. It was the exact same situation in BOTF. And please don't start complaining that the system would start by building the best farms it could with the available resources and tech. That's just the way it is, so accept it.



So that's a total of three separate problems that you've found with the exploration. Considering he's spent so long in trying to get that problem fixed, Mikes gonna hate you.

I was only being facetious

Keep up the feedback though always good to have some.

Regards Wolfe

If they can carry troops, they should be able to carry population While at it, how does ground combat work? Better yet, is there ground combat?




You're kidding, right? You mean you have to go through all the upgrades? Jeez, that's the most senseless thing I've heard so far... hmmm. So if I have at least one level 1 structure of a given type I can build level 1s from scratch, but if I have none I have to go back to the stone age? Sorry, it's stupid - no offense meant.




Hmm, so maybe it's better you don't tell him anything?
I must warn you, I'm a *very* good tester.

Please, always take my posts as being in good humour, even if they don't sound like it. You guys are doing a great job, I'm just trying to help with some comments. And a nice, well spirited discussion is always a good thing IMO.
I might drop some suggestions based on LE:I that I think would be good to have in the game, don't be offended. And you can always tell me to STFU, I won't go slith my wrists over it

We haven't discussed ground combat yet since you can't even attack system yet. Once Mike is closer to implementing it, then we'll start discussing it in detail.

In BOTF though, ground combat worked by having the population provide a ground combat value. The more people in the system, the higher the value was. This was then adjusted by the occupying race (The Klingons had a bonus) and any ground defense bonii you had from special buildings. The total number of defense points could then be seen if you hovered your mouse over the star on the map (If you had tooltips turned off). Troop Transports then had a similar rating, around 800 per ship I think it was. If the combined attack value of the transports sent in was greater than the defense value of the system, then you captured the system. It was very simplistic, but it worked.

As for Transports moving population, I highly doubt Mike will implement it. Transports carry troops, not people. Besides, Mike hasn't responded to my PM yet. He may not even want to have movable populations in his game.



I'm not kidding, that's the way it is. It was that way in BOTF, and it's that way in this game. It might be frustrating, but that's just the way the game is set up. It would take a lot of reprogramming to change it. And you're correct about going back to the stone age, so for safety reasons it may be a good idea keeping some extra buildings just in case, although I know that the game also has some production penalties for keeping useless buildings like that...



Too late.

Although he hasn't read the PM just yet...



I guessed that from your posts. You've got to have spent a long while looking at the game to notice all the points that you have done so far.

Hmm, troops *are* people
Seriously though, you guys need to take a look at LE:I and how it handles ground combat and other stuff. Well, you don't need, it's just an expression. Hehe. But I'm hopeful, I managed to change that game, I'm sure I'll manage to change this one too Hehe, how stuck up is this guy, huh?




And the plot thickens... whoever came up with this system originally was either a genius or braindead
I thought structures going obsolete was automatic. Keeping extra buildings?



Crap.



Not really. I'm a natural really, I know what to look for and where instinctively. Great sense of balance too. Beta tested Lost Empire: Immortals (space 4X) and Titans of Steel: Warring Suns (tactical squad / ´mech), and ended up having a say in the development. Hehe. They really liked my work.
Anyways, only played ST:S for a couple of days yet, work tends to get in the way of gaming Right now I'm trying to teach class...

No they're not.

*Changes subject*



Yes, obsoletion is automatic. By "keeping extra buildings", I meant it as a way of getting around the problem of earthquakes, sabotage, or whatever destroying your precious buildings; say you've got enough population for 10 industrial buildings, but you've already built 15 industrial buildings. You could either scrap the 5 extra buildings for their resources, or just keep them. If you just keep them, the useless buildings may be destroyed by an earthquake, sabotage, whatever, but the ones you *need* may be spared. It's a tactic that works really well in BOTF, even though it's technically cheating. Mike added in the production penalties to discourage people from doing this.



Eek! The teachers have found us!

*Look busy!*

that tactic only works on upgrade level 9. at lower levels upgrading those buffer buildings cost too much for their potential earthquake benefit.

I think the whole building and population system derived from botf is only a way to symbolize differences in systems and that bigger systems produce more output of some kind than others and that some systems are specialized in something while others do other stuff. It's not applicable to the single-person level where you consider each citizen on each planet individually but as a whole it works quite well again.

I don't see one ship as a single ship either. For me it's more fleet of thousands of those ships. I mean really, a whole conglomerate of star systems with billions of people can only build one single tiny little ship in 2 years time = 1 turn? not really, isn't it. That's why all these allocations and outputs are just proportional factors, not really absolute values in my eyes.

ROTFLMAO



You see where the one structure per planet would be handy? With the possibility of some planet types having more than one (instead of those +15% bonuses for example) of a given type. Earthquakes, unless it's system-wide would also only affect one of each type at most. Same for sabotage - you're not going to sabotage an entire system, right? Etc. Seems to me that those events are conditioning the game a bit too much? Complex is good, but the good kind of complex.
BTW, when I mentioned the one power structure pwer planet above, in the back of my head I was thinking how do you transfer power between planets?

Still on structures, and the different stats you want to have for each race, what happens when you conquer a system from a race with a given structure with better production? You can't upgrade that structure type, you'll have to convert to your own and lose efficiency. In that respect the racial bonuses would be simpler and maybe more effective - and cool, since they'd differentiate the races further.

Just checking, since there have been some unintended differences spotted. Is it intended that:
- The Fed starts with 310 Officers instead of the 306 everyone else starts with?
- The Fed's homeworld starts with +40 Deuterium instead of the +10 everyone else starts with?
- The Dom's homeworld starts with +0 Deuterium instead of the +10 everyone else starts with?
- The Car's Type 1 Shipyard's efficiency is 30% instead of 25% like everyone else?
- The Dom's Type 1 Shipyard's efficiency is 30% instead of 25% like everyone else?

What are the differences between BotE and Sup (and the other projects)? Is there a thread about that? If BotE is more realistic, it might be worth a look. And, I just love german coders there's just that smallish little problem, german

One more idea for starmap navigation. Maybe the Home key could be used to focus (the galaxy map and the system display) on your homeworld?

Allow me to make a stupid suggestion. Cap the max # of structures of each type to the # of current population, in each system. So if in a given turn you have 10 pop in a system, that system cannot have more than 10 each Foo/Ind/Ene/Res/Int structures. As pop grows, you unlock more slots of each type. Doesn't solve the problem, but it may help a bit, and shouldn't be too hard to code.




Notice I'm not against the system per se, it's similar to that great classis MoO. The implementation is awkward though, with the triple shifts thing, and the ever increasing base industry. I think it makes the game a little too fast, but maybe it's intended.




Hmm, I suppose it's to be in line with the ST universe (no surprise there ), where you don't really have fleets of thousands of ships. Also notice that you can build a single tiny little ship *per system* you control, so if you colonize a lot of systems, you can build lots of ships Also to be noted that the limiting factors are Dil and Deu and Off, and not so much industrial capacity or raw materials. I actually like that.

From what I could gather, 1 turn = ~1 month BTW.

BotE is different in several aspects, for once it does not have officers and fuel but classic triple ship range (like in botf) and ship-fixed crew experience that can't be transferred to another ship in the fleet ("crew transfer"). On the other hand it has a complex trade system with monopolys and interstellar stock exchanges. Also several balancing things are different to Sup. If you see it as more realistic depends on what you define as such. It does it different, that's for sure. And I try to keep it as realistic as possible. On the plus side, BotE already has an AI so you can actually play it. I can only recommend trying all games here on the site (atm. that's only Sup and BotE ).

Actually one turn equals 2 years at the beginning (notice we start in ENT era Star Trek wise and go over until Post-Nemesis, which is 300-400 years in reality) and slowly decreases to about two weeks at the other extreme. I once calculated it . From tech development and balance, you get to post-nemesis at about turn 300 in BotE, that means in the meantime, 400 years should have been passed.

I'm currently playing a tough game with the Coalition (our equivalent to the Feds, the dark blue player). I'm not exactly losing, but also not really winning either plus I got a big problem at the Kraetumir sector. I've got not even near that many ships as are hovering there waiting to break into my planetary defenses...
(that's the german version you see here)

It was MoE who said it was more realistic
Actually I've just been looking at the screenshots for BotE, and they look good - I think I liked the system view better than Sup's. Ship classes also seem to be realistic (except maybe sizes, destroyers very small?! ). I'll check it out when I get the time. Thanks for the info.
As for the turn time, I got that dfrom Dafedz's site The movies are really irrelevant to the game in terms of time, since you can't just have turns last different times, mainly because of construction and upkeeps and resource generation and whatnot

thx.

actually I've made an essay about that too already . You can have turn times decrease in real time although it generates problems of course but you have them the other way too. I mean it's a bit strange that tech development in early game takes only 1-4 months per new tech breakthrough so you wonder what the heck have they done all the years before?

If you see it that way that ship engines (warp drives and equivalents) get more powerful and that crossing a sector at warp 3 for example takes 2 years while at warp 6 9 days it is actually quite accurate in terms of galactic sector speed of your ships. You can also say that the proportional factors remain the same and that newer tech buildings are just producing stuff quicker than before which is simulated by a reduced amount of real time per turn. If you think that through long enough, I think you can live with it .

Hey Mal, when are you guys gonna do something about the system name labels on the star map? Between the narrow LCARS font and the contrast level between the text and the territory shading, the labels are virtually unreadable. I spent a lot of time tweaking the star map in Supremacy for readability and aesthetics--it's not easy, but I've kinda developed a knack for it. If you like, I could load up the BotE code and see what I can do with it .

Go ahead . I just posted in the forums if the revision 18 in the source svn repository is the latest version. I'm not 100% sure if that version contains all the improvements planned for alpha5 so it's best we wait for SirP. He could also then say something about the class names and which source files contain relevant code.