Yep, Editor2, I do have a good memory And it doesn't even load.




Again, I know how they work. I guess I don't explain myself fully. Maybe it's just too obvious to me.
What I meant was, if I have several OBs in a system, I'll have to upgrade them *all*, which will result in a higher power consumption, and most likely I won't use some of them, so they'll be turned off. So I'm wasting time (and whatever else) upgrading some of them, as they most likely won't ever be used.
Weirdnesses of the upgrade system, and the energy consumption paradigm - the 2 things that could (need) be improved in the game IMO. That's all. Like the other example I mentioned, the food generating structures.




Did you see the part where I typed 8+ ? Yes, I'm pretty aware of the tech requirements, I just generalized - again, I may be taking some things as too obvious, I'll have to remind myself to explain everything in detail. If I had said 32, I wouldn't be considering tech 11, and I'm sure that it would come up - hence the generalization.
You're not forced to upgrade anyways. As for the power consumption, didn't I mention that in my post? The exploit lies in using it topically, not continuously. Basically, when you want to strike. Just because nobody mentioned it, doesn't mean it can't be done.




Hmm, isn't that what I'm doing?

I really don't understand why the editor wouldn't load...are you using a shortcut to it? The shortcut may be broken, but that's all I can think of if it isn't the other things I mentioned in my last post. All I can say is to try redownloading the game, then reinstall my updates. If it still doesn't work, it may be a problem with .Net - you could try reinstalling that too. Remember to restart your computer to ensure any fixed files are actually loaded into your system memory.

If it still doesn't work, we'll have to ask Mike.

...

What do you mean about upgrading Orbital Batteries? Each Empire only has one type of Orbital Batteries - there's nothing to upgrade to or from. All you need to do is build each one individually, until you have as many as you want/need. Each one has the same build cost and energy requirements. The more of them you want to use, the more more power you will have to provide for them. I don't see any problems with this, so either I still don't understand you, or i'm blind. (And I do wear glasses )

...

Ok, the sparing use of intel could be seen as an exploit, but unless you produce a massive amount of intel on that single turn, it won't be anywhere near as effective as you seem to be suggesting. As i've said elsewhere, intel strength is accumulative - you build it up per turn. But it can also weaken per turn, if you don't provide the necessary resources or manpower to maintain your existing intel ability. Added to that is the intel strength of a rival empire - whether they are using their intel to chip away at your security or whether you're using your intel to break through their security, a single, massive intel boost that is removed on the next turn won't be anywhere near as effective as a long-term, well-funded intel operation.

We won't know exactly how the intel will work in this situation until the AI is working and the intel system is fully implemented, but I really don't think that an exploit like this will work anywhere near as well as you seem to think it will. We could keep arguing over this until our faces turn blue, but that would be pointless if it means we miss out on testing it. For the time being, I think it would be best to agree that we disagree. We can then point fingers at each other once the system is actually working and we know who was right.

...

Maybe, but is he answering?

Nope, no shortcut, running it straight from the exe. The error message I get is something like:
"Cannot start the application because the application's configuration is incorrect. Reinstalling the application might correct the problem."
It'll probably go away with a clean reinstall, but I'm not sure I want to go through the hassle. I'll wait for the next update.




There is a structure called Orbital Batteries, which is available to everyone (including minors, even though these have their own structures). And then there's one structure for each of the empires, Fed/Dom/Car/Rom/Kli Orbital Battery (singular, the others are plural), which are upgrades from OB (actually, they're not listed as upgrades, but they do obsolete OB). But, Orbital Batteries and Fed/Dom/Car/Rom/Kli Orbital Battery have exactly the same stats - except the empire specific ones are available *before* the generic ones, tech level wise (lvl 3 vs 4). [I'm guessing it's an attempt at a workaround to make them available to minors only or something, but then why not make a specific structure like the others?]
Also, the Dom Quantum Batteries (lvl 10) obsolete the Orbital Batteries (the universal ones, not the Card Orbital Battery BTW), yet it provides a different bonus (%ASDef vs ASDef). If you upgrade to Quantum, you lose the ASDef value from the OB, and the %ASDef is probably moot (unless there are other sources for ASDef).

Still on upgrades, and concerning minors:

Minor Advanced Gravitron Shield requires BioTech, the preceding shields don't.
Minor Air Command HQ doesn't require Propulsion, but its upgrade the Combat Grid does.
The Air Command HQ unlocks the Combat Grid and the Fighter Squadrons. The FS has the exact same bonus (10 %ASDef) as the CG, plus %GdCbt 15, but it costs a lot more - and it has a BioTech req. A bit of an overlapping there, plus some incosistencies.
Only the Missile Silo (a later tech) actually provides ASDef, all the other techs provide %ASDef. It's true the Orbital Batteries are universally available (hence available to minors), thus providing the ASDef for the % to have any effect, but it looks weird, especially the Grid (%ASDef) upgrading to the Silo (ASDef). Also, there are no obsoletion paths, not sure how that works out.
The Tachyon Defense Grid adds another %ASDef structure, I'd say there are enough of those already for the minors.




The unless in your reply confuses me... That's the only thing I' was suggesting , so that was my point



And exactly how does this help? Turn it on for a couple of turns, accumulate, use the intel, and then turn it off.



Hmm, you haven't really explained how it all works, when we discussed this a few posts ago, but internal security doesn't have to do with intelligence structures - not directly anyway.



Why? You're only saying this rethoricaly, as in *shouldn't*, right?



Take some notes then, and we'll see.
% Bonuses are ususally a bad idea IMO. Just saying.



Yeah, I can live with that. Notice the exploit *is* possible, all that remains to be seen is *how* effective it is.



Yep, occasionally. And no answer doesn't mean he doesn't read. But like I was saying, I'm posting stuff here so both of you can read, each the part that concerns him. I'm not going to PM Mike with everything I find that is his area, you're doing a good job as project manager and he doesn't really need any more PMs I'm sure
And then there's the other part of the equation, me. My time is limited, so I'm trying to make it as easy as possible for you guys, but also for me.

Two ways: 1. Have the Obsidian Order have other effects like mitigating intel point decrease (weakening) or reducing system rebellion probabilities as well as intel success modifications and it is "wiser" to let it on all day long. It could also have a 5-turn starting lag period where the benefits are not taking effect, also 5 turns inability period after you disconnected the building from their power source.

2. If you create intel point depots for each race where generated intel points are stored, you can exploit the system the way Iceman described but not if the depot has a saturation curve, i.e. a max velocity with which it can fill up per turn. Then you can't exploit anymore, even the other way round, you are prone to waste IP if assigned 100% of accumulated IPs to a certain depot in 1 turn. The Obsidian Order can then increase vmax continuously where each turn it is online counts, so it's giving you a bonus having it online all the time. The latter is actually a nice idea for the current BotE system. IIRC the depots there do not have a saturation function..

1. The 5 turn lag not only does not make sense, it also goes against the energy requirements aspect of the game. The real problem is precisely how energy requirements were implemented.

2. The saturation curve doesn't make sense with a fixed % bonus. If the description says 20%, but people will only get 5% at a certain point, they'll go WTF. Also, restricting intel is counter-productive, as the game relies precisely on accumulating intel to take actions. If all races top out at intel, then it becomes moot.

1. It takes time until the "machine is running". Nevertheless it consumes energy until it does. Each machine in production everywhere is working that way (a prominent example is the large hadron collider), even your car. Before you can drive away you have to start the motor and that costs energy which is not used to get you any meter forward from your position . Now extend and stretch this on a longer time period.

2. It's not the 20% bonus that gets a saturation. It's the race-specific depot intel point assignment that gets the saturation. It is actually realistic. "Applicable" Intel isn't generated in one turn. Agents need to be trained, fly into a specific system, get acquainted there and gain trust, etc.pp. so there's a difference between applicable intel and general (potential) intel generated by the normal intel production by standard intel buildings.

There's one general depot, where all generated intel points are stored but there are 5 more depots plus the inner security one, the 5 representing each race. Now you can assign points (percentage-wise automatically each turn, much like research; load bote and open intel menu then you see exactly what I mean) from your big general depot into the race specific ones or the inner security ones and the depot there grows (saturated!). That symbolizes the intel agents infiltrating one specific major. Shuffling around is equivalent to drawing depot points back into the general depot (with malus) and reassign it (with saturation!). The realistic counterpart is the difficulty to retrieve agents back out of business once they have attained a higher position inside the former major's society or military and then reassign them to another major. From the applicable race-specific depot, actions can be funded percentage-wise again (not saturated).

1. I'm not going to discuss moronic mechanics (car mechanics) with you.

2. Yes, our realities are different.

moronic? still going down this route of conversation?

I don't know what to do with you. You seem not to be able to refrain from using certain adjectives to describe things and ideas other people talk about. I don't know how the others think of this but this is unacceptable to me. Nonsense like this will be edited out or the complete post removed by me personally if there's no value to the topic's discussion visible next time. Let this be a warning cause I won't edit often.

Btw. the tribunal in botf took also a longer time before it had an effect. Extending this on certain if not all buildings with production percentage bonus would benefit those who have them constantly (or at least as continuous/connected as possible) online.

*Edit - stop posting tiny messages and give me a chance to post one of my uber messages guys! I had to add to this uberpost five times because every time I tried posting it, you guys had beaten me! Grr...

Anyways, back to the post...

If that's the error message that you're getting .Iceman, reinstalling the game (And therefore the editor) is the only way you'll fix it. I assure you that the editor is still working for me, so some of your files have corrupted or something somewhere along the line.

...

The Orbital Batteries structure is intended to be used by all races, but as you pointed out, it is superseded by the Orbital Batteries of the empires. This is intentional, as it ensures the minor races build their own Orbital batteries - and therefore have their own Orbital Battery models in 3D combat - whilst the same is true for each of the Empires. Their own Orbital battery structures will be present in the combat system.

Having a specific structure would work as you say, but it would actually come at a cost - adding an extra individual building to all of the hundreds of minor races like that would increase the size of the database, therefore impacting on performance. Due to the way the database is programmed, if the "available to all" option is selected, then the game doesn't need to add the structure to the database of buildable objects - it knows to simply make it available anyways. Whilst sounding strange, this workaround therefore both reduces the potential size of the database AND allows the Empires to have their own unique Orbital Battery structures.

The Empire Orbital Batteries obsolete the standard orbital batteries because i'm not sure how the game will respond to having two different types of Orbital Batteries in the same system (Once the Orbital Batteries and the Combat system are fully implemented and working); I thought it would be safer to play it safe and remove any existing Orbital Battery models completely from systems that are taken over by an Empire. You might argue that simply having them upgrade would negate the problem, but that would only work until the Orbital Batteries are needed - what happens if the system is attacked before the Orbital Batteries have been upgraded, or a player orders the construction of one of the "new" empire Orbital Batteries? I can remove the obsoletion paths easily enough once we know for definite that multiple Orbital Battery types in a system won't cause crashes or anything.

The difference in the tech levels and the tenses is a mistake though, so I will correct those problems.

The Quantum Batteries is a different defensive structure. It's kind of like an uber Orbital Battery, and is an expensive, late-tech structure that was supposed to only have a limited buildable number (Eg. 6 per empire), so players would have to decide which systems really needed to be defended by such an awesome structure - you wouldn't defend a piddly little system that has no resources or is of limited tactical use with this structure afterall. Since the "x no. per empire" option is not available in the editor though, the structure is a bit in limbo at the moment.

...

Minor Advanced Gravitron Shield
Read the description of the structure. It needs Biotech or you could end up shredding the atmosphere of the planet.



-This would be a great structure to add a structure-specific random event to if it were possible to do that - just imagine something went wrong and the atmosphere of a planet was shredded...

Air Command HQ
The Air Command HQ doesn't upgrade to Combat Grid. Think of the Air Command HQ as an advanced Air Traffic Control system and the Combat Grid as a cross between a Sensor Platform and an Orbital Battery; the two structures are completely different but only really come into their own once they are supporting each other.

Fighter Squadrons
This bonus from this structure is a bit up in the air because myself and Dafedz are a bit confused over the defence options in the editor. We wanted an Anti-Invasion bonus for this "structure" rather than a Ground Defence, Ground Combat, or Anti-Ship bonus. I'm still waiting for a reply from Mike about this. If Mike doesn't include an Anti-Invasion bonus, we'll discuss which of the existing bonuses would be more appropriate, regardless of the existing structures, since it makes sense that you would have fighter squadrons to defend the system with anyway.

Missile Siloes
The Combat grid doesn't upgrade to the Missile Silo; it's more of an extension than an upgrade. If you read the description for the structure as well, the physical bonus makes more sense than a percentage bonus:



Tachyon Defense Grid
This structure is over-powered for a reason; very, very few of the minor races can build it. Only the most powerful or important minor races can build it, such as the Vulcans and the Devore Imperium. And even then, it's a really high-level structure and it will take them a long time to research to that level.

...


I don't mean big, I mean really freaking huge massive gigantic enormous big.

Seriously, it would have to be a huge effort from all of your systems to break through the built-up security of an enemy race in this way, and in the mean time you would be suffering in all of the other areas - your own internal security, your research, system production, etc etc. I'm not sure it would be worth it in the long run, even if you did it for a short time, because the impact on your own security would be great.


...And in the mean time you take a massive hit to internal security as you send all of your operatives off into the great unknown with little chance of backup. Intel efforts are exactly that - an effort. It's a long-term activity where your operatives build up their contacts as information about their targets. You can't maintain those contacts if you suddenly pull out or don't give your people time to do their work.


You only have one pool of Intel operatives - each operative can only work in Internal Security or Foreign Affairs, they can't work in both at the same time. If you want to increase one, you either have to increase your overall Intel expenditure, or you will have to shift resources to the other area. Take a look at the Intel screen to see what I mean. It's got sliding bars just like the Production screen.


You're not thinking about how Intel operatives would work. To do their job, they have to build up contacts and information. No matter how many people or resources you throw at something though, sometimes the job just can't be done in the timespan you're given.


As i've said before, let's just agree to disagree on this point. The percentage bonuses worked well in BOTF, and I don't see any reason to lose them.


Project manager? I prefer "Evil Romulan Overlord of Evil".

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Your mitigating point decrease and reduced system rebellion ideas are interesting Mal, but there's no way to implement them yet as there's no such bonuses in the editor. It's worth mentioning to Mike though.

I'm not entirely sure about how exactly intel points are accrued, so i'll pass on your second point to Mike as well. This might be a system that both games will share.

I'm not sure about including a lag period from the effectiveness of the special buildings, but i'll still mention it to Mike...meh i'll just copy-and-paste your entire post.

...

.Iceman, if a saturation curve was included, then an explanation could also be included so players know what is going on. There could even be a temporary graphical display showing the building "powering up" to make it an easier to understand concept for players or something.

As Mal said, it does take time to get a machine running, and I think that *if* a saturation curve were included, it would most likely apply to when changes are made to funding levels - it wouldn't place a cap on maximum output. In fact, this might also be an interesting idea to apply to research as well, so players can't exploit research either. The lag would be explained as new research projects being set up thanks to new funding, or dedicated scientists performing the last few experiments that they can with their dwindling funding levels.

...

.Iceman, try to be sensitive to peoples' feelings when you post. Mal was obviously offended by you calling his analogy moronic, and he does have the power to make the changes he says. I've continued this discussion because i'm not easily offended by words, but I draw the line when other people start to be offended. Please just try to be a bit more sensitive in future.

...

Mal is correct about the Tribunal - in fact, each of the races had their own equivalent. (Martial Law, Police State, Inquisition, Festival of Fun) They were "structures" that could be "built" an unlimited number of times but could only be built when morale in a system became too low. They essentially weed out any malcontent's and deal with them in different ways. This meant some were better than others - the Police State executed them, the Festival of Fun made them "see the good things in life again" lol. Once initiated, they took 5 turns to complete, and they couldn't be interrupted, cancelled, or speeded up. There is no option in the editor yet to correctly implement these "buildings", but i've already told Mike about it.

hm, let's say we follow Iceman's tactic and try to exploit it. He says he would turn it on when he needs it and generate uber-output with 20% bonus on top. hm, where's the uber-output coming from? It can only come from the intel buildings you can build and need to keep upgraded. I would think it's a waste of resources not to have them constantly running but have a large most-of-the-time unused surplus of buildings which are needed to get the uber-output at a specific point (the turn-on point). So in the end, it seems a waste of resources to follow the exploit the way he described (you wouldn't need that many intel buildings otherwise if used more continuously) which lowers the exploit effect if not turning it around, i.e. the problem solves itself.

Having the Inner Security (maybe not only the obsidian order (building) but the whole intel points stored there or all officers working there in the inner security sector) control the system rebellion probability (all systems with less than 80 morale draw internal security officers into those systems that try to infiltrate rebellion leaders and take them out) could be a key feature of the Inner Security making it even more important, even when the enemy has no competitive intel team but good fleets that keep winning hence your morale keeps dropping. Then the Inner Security would be better used to keep your own people under control. One could think of long-term morale effects of doing so but I think that goes a bit too far down the road .

Hmm, I didn't mean adding one per race. I meant identifying it clearly as a minor race structure, like the other *minor* race structures. One for all of them. No real change.



Actually my observation came from the fact that the basic gravitron shield didn't require it, but the advanced one did.



Right, but the Air Command HQ is a OPNS structure, the Combat Grid doesn't have any restriction. So does that mean that you can have as many CGs as you want, since it's not meant to be an upgrade?



I don't think you understood. There are structures that add %ASDef, and others that add ASDef. Those that provide ASDef come *later* (at least some) than those that provide %ASDef, which doesn't make sense.



I never mentioned overpowered. I only said there are a lot of structures granting %ASDef, as opposed to just a couple granting ASDef. Also, this structure doesn't have any restrictions, is that intended? If the Silo is a Home system structure only, for whatever reason, this one would qualify even more IMO.



I'm not sure why you're assuming a massively built up internal security for each other race, but I guess this will lead nowhere at present. Also, the production system, for one, is made as to not suffer all that much from removing pop from factories. Food and research, I'd venture that the hits are well worth it if sabo actions will have meaningful effects (which they need to, else might as well remove intel from the game).



Will you do that for *every* building? Or is this one a special case? You want it to make sense for one building, and disregard the rest? Nice logic. Would put a Vulcan to shame. I'm not even going to mention it taking up to 10 years powering up... but then, we're very selective about our realism, aren't we?



I call things by what they are.


These are "events", not buildings. Do they take energy to run? Are we talking the same thing?

so you know what things are.. (I edited out his last part, you can see it in his profile warning quoted)

as I wrote you, last warning before a ban will be issued (will be discussed internally). Enough is enough. That's not the way things run here. Keep a decent language and don't assume others just want to look smart when discussing with you. They want to get to a point, discuss things freely without hearing excessively and irrespectfully about how you think of their ideas and explanations. Trying to put oneself on a logic throne and directly and indirectly intimidate others to not voice their opinions and proposals is a no-no. This is (mainly) a Star Trek board and we live by the standards of Star Trek so fit and adapt, that's the only advise I can give you at this point. When voicing your opinions, stick to the simple rules of good conversation. Also people here want to improve the game, not their reputation, something I don't see very often in your posts. You seem only to want to make sure everybody gets the message that they'd be less smart than you. Inacceptable.

It (Saturation and/or lag period) will be done with all buildings (outputs and their distribution (like the application of intel points)) that come with a reasonable explanation for doing so. Besides it's not the ten years in this case since the building has tech 5 requirement. Even so, reinstating a full effect for those specially trained intel personnel takes time. The tuition in special ops is a full-time study and having the Obsidian Order build up its "network of trust" (trusted people) in the common intel area of their empire takes time too. The whole intel area is one of the most people-depending and "grey" area in the whole game. A farm is a farm and their output is clear: food. But intel points and application is more diffuse, that's why we could separate this from the other buildings and give them special effects like a lag period for example.

I'm not saying it needs to. It's just a possible way to go. The initial problem can also be solved by the other means I proposed.

Oh, well that's an easy enough change to make. Done.


Who says the requirements need to stay the same though? If players want to get the advanced structures, they should work for it.


As i've said before, there's a bug in the restrictions. ALL structures by default have the one per system restriction turned on - but for some reason this isn't always showing up in the game files. Virtually all of the structures therefore *should* have at least one restriction. I've given the Combat grid an Native System restriction so it is in keeping with the Air Command HQ.


Oh, I didn't think about that. All of the minor race defensive structures were created by me rather than Dafedz (He simply listed generic defence types rather than structures in the editor). I'll have a look at making some changes to the bonuses and will let you and Dafedz know about the changes I make. Most likely, i'll increase the tech level requirements, because i've just noticed that the Air Command HQ is actually buildable before even the Orbital Batteries are at the moment.


I meant overpowered by including the structure along with the other %ASDef structures. I'll give it a Home system restriction, and i'll change the Missile Silo restriction from Home to native system.


I'm not assuming a massively built up internal security for the other race, but, as long as the AI works as we expect it to, the AI will have *some* defences - and offences - built up. The moment you lower your internal security so you can attack them, you leave yourself vulnerable to attack from the enemy at the same time.


I'm Romulan, not Vulcan. Who says logic has anything to do with it?


That may be so, but it doesn't mean you have to voice those opinions. You've essentially just insulted Mal all over again just by making this comment, which implies you don't know how to be sensitive to other people's feelings. If you have a problem with Mal, myself, or someone else on the forums, then discuss it with them via the PM system, but don't use the PM's simply to abuse people either. These forums are for people to discuss the game in the spirit of cooperation, not to flame each other with. I must also warn you that we have the power to take people's access to PM's away, so don't give people cause to complain.


They might be events, but they were still listed in the "build" queue. There was no other way to initiate them and you couldn't commence production on anything else whilst it took place. I just received a PM from Mike about the Martial Law, and he says he's got plans for this area but doesn't want to discuss them yet until he's had more time to work on it. For that reason, I won't continue to discuss this particular issue any further.

Nobody. But it was just an observation. As in, checking if it was intended or not, since they're similar structures. Having to work for it is ok, but that's why the tech requirements are higher. Having other reqs is neither good not bad. As has been seen already, there's a lot of stuff that is not intended still, so I'm just running checks. I may stop doing it, but I'd think it might actually be useful - at least occasionally.



Some of the observations I make might not even have an impact (OpS and HS for example should be equivalent to OpE), but I think it's better to play it safe than having to dig through the files later, in case anything changes. It doesn't hurt to be thorough.



That being one of my points



Again this was just an observation based on consistency, not just being picky.



Hmm, I still don't understand the boundaries between Intel and IS, so I'm going to reserve any comments.
Regardless, an attack takes one turn I guess, it'd be a really lucky shot if another empire would strike that same turn. Anyways, if that's really how it works, then that enemy will also be vulnerable to atack, etc. Of course, that same enemy would have to already be ready to attack...



You are not renegating your origins, are you?



Actually, I could reply to this with what actually went on, but I'm going to just ignore him. I like to discuss things with serious people. And TBH, I couldn't care less if he bans me or not, I can use my time elsewhere.
Moving on.

What was there going on? I didn't notice anything besides you attacking me. So you don't even feel the need to explain yourself but feel it's appropriate to stick to your uninspired insults and expect people to acknowledge that. Nice.

I won't go down to your level of acting on forums. That remark about me being not serious and trying to openly separate forum users into two categories has just invited you to a internal ban discussion. Before banning someone, we discuss things and in the end do that all together cause we are convinced there's no other way to deal with the problem appropriately. No quick-judging people/things and no dictatorship bans. That's something I guess that differentiates your way of thinking from ours.
Btw. I don't care too what you do with your time as long as you keep painting that ignorant picture of you.

Actually it's a pretty sad show that you're delivering here. But I'm not going to comment much further on this.

Reinstalled, rebooted. Both with the default files, and your updated files:
Editor2 : doesn't even load
Editor3 : starts loading, loads screen, clr20r3 error




Not sure what other way there is... so I guess I don't see the point.



I took a look at the intel screen (again) and frankly, I don't see anything like you describe. There is no intel *expenditure*, there are 3 sliders that basically distribute your Personnel "income" (which has nothing to do with intel facilities, like I mentioned before, it's a fixed amount that depends on your colonies' pop and your race) among the 3 areas - Officers, Internal Affairs and External Affairs. So you're not *shifting* resources on a turnly basis, you're you're allocating personnel "production" which is then permanent. Also, again, like I mentioned before, there's one global intel pool, that is not working yet - at least not accumulating anything.
Now, as for what each of the 3 categories of Personnel, the *game* describes them as:
Officers - ships and bases
Internal Affairs - internal morale strength (fluctuation or stability of morale)
External Affairs - diplomacy effectiveness (majors and minors, treaties, joining, sympathy)
And the intel base facilities - analysis of reports from field agents.
I think you may be projecting your own thoughts into the mechanics of the game, as it doesn't seem to do anything like that. At least as of yet. The whole operatives thing, it's irrelevant really. It's just a way to try to explain what you can't otherwise. If you'd have to train your agents, then the intel base structures would be irrelevant, as there would be no data to analyse while those "agents" were being trained. So basically, you start the game with the agents already trained. Regardless, in what the game is concerned, that whole line of reasoning is irrelevant. Contacts and whatever, same thing. So I am thinking about how intel operatives would work You're just mixing your idea of intel operatives with the "agents" the game puts at your disposal.



The Internal Affairs agents already do qualm rebellions by increasing your empire morale, so that's basically already covered by game mechanics. Those "events" that were mentioned also increase morale, having the same effect.



I bet it'll be way easier than what you think



About the energy consumption increase when upgrading structures, I actually meant it regarding stuff like
Free Market > Agricultural Centres
Dom Provisions Dispenser > Dom Organics Replicators
etc...


@Mike:

Starmap:
When the influence area of a system expands due to pop levels, if there's a system within that area that is inhabited by a minor, that sector is not colored in the empire's color, and the system is not marked as belonging to the respective Affiliation. If that system is uninhabited though, it'll be colored and Affiliation will reflect the area of influence.

My hard drive died on me this morning, so i've lost about a weeks worth of Supremacy updates. Thanks to the forums though I know what has been lost, so it's not a big deal. I'll get working on it once i've finished reinstalling everything. I'll post a reply to the previous messages as soon as I have time to do so. Dafedz has just finished work on the database update i've mentioned previously, so you might want to check it out.

I realize I've been missing for over a year, but I don't know anyone that goes through more hard drives or some other technical issue then you.

actually it can happen pretty often if there's a systematic error hidden somewhere. For example my last (and only ) hdd died because I had the backside of my computer in direct sunlight contact (rearranged my computer room without checking the angles ). It simply overheated. Sometimes it's also a bad or underdimensioned pc case that has not enough circulation inside. Or a speed fan that ain't working anymore.

My computer has gone through three hard drives in five years. I think that's pretty good going, considering my previous computer went through eight hard drives in six years. As Mal said, the cause of all those hard drive failures (On my old computer) was because the fan was bust. It wasn't until I opened up the case to install drive number eight that I noticed the fan didn't have any blades! Prior to my installing the drive, I had a PC performance agreement with PC World and they fixed it for me. But by drive eight they had changed their fixing policy and asked if I could install the drive myself if they sent me the parts. (It's much faster and cheaper to do it that way) I'd never even seen the inside of a computer before that point, but I said that I could just to save time. Luckily the instructions they sent were brilliant, and i've been selecting that fixing option ever since.

Hard drives are definitely the weakest link in my computer set ups though. I really want an Alienware computer; their best one can come with Terrabyte drives. I'd love to see how long one of those would last me.

I wonder how fast the read/write times are on those drives, though. I'm running two 10,000 RPM WD Raptor drives (150 gb each) in my desktop as I built that from scratch a couple years ago. I've heard that the faster drives are prone to failures, but I've had no problems so far. The funny part is that the second drive isn't even formatted yet, so it's just plugged into my case, drawing power, and it's not even doing anything. I might install Windows 7 on it (I've heard 7 is really sweet from a few people, Mike included).

You should do some research (emphasis on research, as opposed to buying) on solid-state drives. Since there's no moving parts, it may be a bit more durable, depending on what's causing your drives to fail. Plus, the access times are quite faster then normal hard disks, but the capacity is typically lower.

Have we properly derailed the thread yet?

there's a good freeware program called Everest (Home Edition) that gives a lot of information about your computer internals. For example it reads data from your internal hard drive temperature sensors. Mine has 25°C right now, so it's pretty well . After installing the program, go to Computer->Sensors and have a look. Beside the CPU (has 68° right now) nothing should have over 40°C. If so, something's wrong with a fan or in general with air circulation.

It's a good tool to prevent bad surprises like HDD failures. I use it (and SiSoft Sandra, but you won't need it, Everest is good too) since August 2000, that's when I bought my first self-owned computer. Once in a while I check temperatures and fan rpms (should be above 1000 for case and >3000 for CPU depending on the size of your fans; I've got 80x80mm) with it and if there's a rise in temperature (an explicable rise would be fore-going heavy cpu load which increases temperatur naturally) I know I need to open the case and check everything inside. Mostly it's just a cable loosen, or simply thick layers of dust . That way I had only one hard drive failure in all those years .

Azhdeen, yep .

Since when have I ever cared about keeping on thread Azhdeen? If anything, i'm probably the worst offender on the forums.

I've never considered buying a solid state drive. I know they're faster and more reliable, but the capacities are a bit on the pathetic side compared to what you pay at the moment. If I bought one, it wouldn't be until prices came down and the capacities increased. At the rate things are advancing though, I don't think it'll be long before solid state drives take over from hard drives as the standard.

Thanks for that link Mal. I've installed the program, but if i'm reading it right then i've got a problem; the temperature is currently 42*C but it's apparently been as high as 90*C...

yeah I guess. 2003 when I bought my second pc which is still my current pc, I was buying a special pc case (Casetek, I don't remember the exact model but it did cost 79€) that was test winner in a good german pc magazine (c't) and big fans (pabst 80x80, 4 of them) and build the pc up myself with (well-)chosen components. It has paid off since then. Judging from your high temperatures, I'd say the fans are failing from time to time and/or they cannot cope the pc's heat development when it's run under max performance, i.e. most heat development.

My display is a bit different from yours (I use the german everest home version). I've uploaded my state below. Degrees above 90° are certainly a killing factor and if you ask me it's just a matter of time and heavy cpu load until the next drive will say goodbye . I'd consider looking if I could install bigger fans and I'd watch if my harddrives have enough air and room inside the cpu case. If they are stacked tightly it's no wonder when they get hot very quickly. Air circulation is all-important there so a bigger tower (not necessarily a "big tower" like those in the ancient past ) might also be helping.

After my comment on Remus' inhabitability, I see it was changed to a Desert planet. That's nice, but there are some side effects to that. Just observations though. System max pop was decreased (from 220 to 160 - Area of Influence too), which means starting pop was also decreased as they're related (from 98 to 71) - that's a 7 turn set-back in terms of pop/development. Growth rate was also decreased, as well as production in a general way. This is of course only for the HomeSystem, just a heads-up for the slower start of the Romulans.

Can't recall, should the Romulans be able to build the Free Market? Also, it shows Upgrade Options as blank (because they can't build Agricultural Centres? - Federation shows ACs), maybe that line shouldn't be displayed if there's nothing to display.
In the same line of thought, level 1 Shipyards shouldn't also display Obsoleted Items as it's also blank.



Some inconsistencies:


Races.xml vs HomeSystems.xml
----------------------------

Bolians
- Races.xml
Hailing from the ninth planet of the Bolarus system, the Bolians
- HomeSystems.xml
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="8" MaxNumberOfPlanets="9" />

Cytherians
- Races.xml
HomePlanetType = Terran
- HomeSystems.xml
doesn't force the existence of a Terran planet

Ornarans
- Races.xml
HomePlanetType = Barren
- HomeSystems.xml
Ornara = Medium Desert (Marginal)

The Bolian and Cytherian planet problems were the result of bugs that used to be in the game. These bugs have since been fixed, and I went through and fixed the races that were afected. Obviously I somehow missed out these two races though. I've fixed them and the Ornarans now.

I've changed Remus back to a Class-M planet. I've rewritten the description of Remus to explain the problem better. Let me know what you think.



No, the Romulans are not supposed to be able to build the Free Market. I've removed the structure from their build list now. The blank upgrade bug that you've noticed is interesting though. I'll mention it to Mike. The Romulan shipyards were in need of a minor update, which i've now done. Check your PM's for the updated files.

It's good. The only problem is the old problem, it has the exact same max pop as Romulus Prime, which directly contradicts the description:



Turning it into a Desert planet was actually a good thing IMO, except for the problem I mentioned. Not sure if Desert is too "far" in the habitability scale (Marginal, 2% growth) for the Romulans, but IIRC the options for Comfortable (4%) are Oceanic and Jungle, which don't quite fit. Alternatives could be to have a new planet type for Adequate (3%) - which doesn't seem to be used (it could be tricky though); or increase size for the Tiny Oceanic (Romulus IV) planet for the Desert option; or a new planet special (like Food and Energy) that gives it -X% population [random events potential here, for comet impact areas, bombardment effects, industrial accidents, plagues, etc.; even replacement of Moons, with +X%].


@Mike:
Speaking of planetary bonuses, The Great Link (the Dominion homeworld, not the structure) only shows the Food planetary bonus, and not the Energy one. I guess each planet can only display one icon, and since TGL has 2 bonuses, only one of them is displayed. AFAICT both are working though. It's just not an accurate display of info.

About the Research Matrix, techs not yet researched for the Federation show in a light gray, and for other races show in a dark gray which makes them almost unreadable.


@MoE
Still on the Research Matrix, in level 4 techs for the Dominion, unlocked techs include the Type 4 University (Federation). Also, unlocked techs are showing Orbital Batteries for level 4, and Orbital Battery for level 3 - they're displaying the minors structure which is somewhat confusing.




It only happens with the Romulans it seems, Class I Imperial Shipyard.

BTW, speaking of shipyards, Shipyards of Axanar still do not obsolete the major empires' shipyards, only minors'.


The Upgrade paths of Space Stations (Outposts and StarBases) are a bit strange. Doesn't make much sense that I can upgrade an Outpost I to a Starbase I (without going through the Outpost II), but I cannot build a Starbase I from scratch...

But the description also says it is class M, so keeping it as a desert would contradict that part of the description. If the planet had a less wierd axis, the day side of the planet wouldn't melt and the night side wouldn't...be dark. And then we wouldn't be having this conversation lol.

As i've said before, I can't change the population sizes of the planets. I've asked Mike to add in an additional population density category that would certainly make life easier, but it's up to him to decide whether changing the game code to allow for this is a useful use of his time. And to be honest, I don't think he will see it that way. He hasn't done it yet to my knowledge, at least.

I'll have a look at the Orbital Batteries. There is definitely something wrong there - but if it's what I think it is, it's a bug and not an editor problem. I'll look at the shipyards too.

As i've said before, the stations are a bit of an experiment on my part. I never said the current path was perfect. I'm thinking about removing some of the prerequisites so it is easier to upgrade (Since you wouldn't want to build Outpost I's when you can build Outpost II's for instance as Outpost I's are built from old tech.

One of them should be made to match the other, that being the point
BTW, an inconsistency (regardless of any gameplay reason), the Reman Dilithium Mine requires Construction 9. Odd, since dilithium mines in Remus acording to the description you just mentioned should already exist



That was for Mike basically. I don't see the benefit of population density. ?



Again, just reporting. No use in sending me the files if I'm not going to report, right?



I might, for their lower cost and maintenance, if I don't really care for the improvements the upgrade brings. This is basically the weirdness in the whole upgrade system with this game - every upgrade really.


More stuff:

Ullians
Races.xml <HomePlanetType>Barren</HomePlanetType>
HomeSystems.xml <Planet Type="Jungle" Size="Giant" />


It's not just the Aquaculture Centre that has no Energy cost, the Card State Rations too.


It'd be nice if in the Research Matrix, only one of the basic structures icons for each structure type would be displayed; I mean, no need to display 11 icons for Type 1 ~ 11 Organics Plant, etc. in Basic Weapons, for example. The first one would suffice, and the display wouldn't be clogged with useless information.

I'll ignore the Reman Dilithium mines for the time being.

The population density selection would allow me to solve a number of problems. Firstly, I would be able to make the home systems of the empires larger without changing the planetary makeup of their systems in any way. I would also be able to give minor races that are known to have problems with overcrowding huge maximum population levels, or races that we know have growth problems inhabit systems with low maximum populations. Basically it would allow the empires to grow better and would make the game more canon at the same time.

The State Rations don't hvae an energy cost in Dafedz's database, os I haven't exactly implemented it wrong. The State Rations is more of social provisioning system rather than a specific structure, which is probably why Dafedz hasn't given it an energy requirement. And before you ask, the industrial cost is probably to pay for the admin side of it.

I know about the research icon problem; i've told Mike about it before. With any luck he'll fix it with the next update, but i'll give him another nudge to be sure.