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 A few thoughts 
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@MOE:
Looks like we need to add an Orbital Battery to the shared resources for the minor race ship list?

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14 Mar 2009, 13:43
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The minor races are using the BOTF Orbital Battery image at the moment. Make the model and image if you want and i'll add them to the list. :)

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14 Mar 2009, 13:54
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An idea for the minors tech curve issue: how about setting minors' morale levels according to their tech curve? A Backwards minor race would start with their Morale level really low, therefore having their research, production and credits greatly reduced. A Supreme minor would start with top Morale. The special structures for the low level minors would have to have their costs reduced (and maybe the bonuses reduced accordingly) most likely. As they join an empire, the chances for Morale to increase are higher, so they'd be developing faster, which would be kind of logical. I think empire-wide morale for the empire that takes them in would decrease, but that'd be the cost of annexing them - provided they have an interesting special structure. Just a thought.

About scanners: the top of the line scanners for the empires obsolete the (minors) Tachyon Defense Grid. But, the TDG is not a scanner (or at least does not provide scan range bonuses). Something is fishy there. Also, again, the bonuses from this structure are better than those for the empires: 100% ASDef is much better than 50% for the Kli DSR and Rom ST; 60% Anti-Cloak is better than 50% of the Fed GSA. [It provides AC but not scan range, some inconsistency there?]

Still about top of the line scanners, the Kli DSR and Dom APA are OpE, all the others are only OpS. Is that intended?
And the Rom ST should have a Weapons tech req, since it provides %ASDef.


16 Mar 2009, 17:42
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Hmm...god knows what I was thinking when I did that. Fixed.

I can't remember if i've mentioned this before, but there's currently no opton to set the scan strengths in the editor. For this reason, that stats of the scanners are incomplete. Mike knows of the problem, it was apparently an oversight on his part. He'll be adding the option in soon.

I'm not so sure about the morale impact though; many of the "backwards" races were actually extremely happy with the way things were in the various series and films - some of them actively avoided technology, while others simply needed more time to develop. Why should backwards races suffer a major morale penalty just because they are backward?

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16 Mar 2009, 18:03
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MoE's right. Morale has significant influential factors other than tech which can completely reverse your effect. Sure, good tech progress can strengthen the pride of a nation, but that depends on whether this tech is used at all, let's say to produce "popular stuff" like battleships for example. If it's hidden tech that no one knows or cares about, the morale effect should be zero. Also the nation's pride could be influenced by other things than plain tech, effectively everything ranging from just enough food stocks for the next 200 decades up to a fairly large-sized fleet. I think all these morale effects are built into the increased output of higher tech buildings and the absence of lost battles which drop morale when having a large enough fleet that does not loose that often. It's a bit played around the issue but I think it's sufficient in this case.
Besides, many scifi shows point out the difficulties of tech perception in a given population so in other words, too much tech could also mean resistance hence dropping morale for such a society. Depends on its race characteristics, namely its tech crazyness.
Annexing or invading another race already has race-specific morale modifiers that take effect immediately. The cost of annexation is represented by an initial low morale on the subjugated system. No need for empire-wide morale effects outside the ones defined in the morale modifier table.

speaking of logical, how is a minor with less than a tenth of number of systems compared to a major hence corresponding lower research points supposed to keep up a decent tech development throughout the game and not become static very quickly after RPs needed to get to a new techlevel have risen (exponentially) enough? Only thing I could imagine here would be shared research contracts with majors if they happen to know a few but aren't affiliated with them. When affiliated and not member, such a shared tech development could be more easily signed (added up research points of both allies and sharing of all tech up to the point of the contract).


16 Mar 2009, 18:44
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That's actually a good point; perhaps there could be things like a co-operative research treaty or the like. I imagine some races - like the Vulcans - would actively persue treaties like that, whilst other races - like the Yridians - would shun them. Finding out which would add further stuff for players to do. :)

By the way, Mike gave me an update on his recent updates last night. He's started programming a rudiementary random event system - so the game might start to get rather more interesting in the future. I wonder just how many of my random events i'll be able to get into the game...? :mischief:

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16 Mar 2009, 21:59
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
I'm not so sure about the morale impact though; many of the "backwards" races were actually extremely happy with the way things were in the various series and films - some of them actively avoided technology, while others simply needed more time to develop. Why should backwards races suffer a major morale penalty just because they are backward?


Ermm, you get too involved with canon at times and forget about the... game. IMO of course. Like I said above, morale impacts research, production and credits. A backwards race would have lower research (those with really low morale would "avoid" tech, average morale would need more time to develop, etc), but also production (hmm, they're technologically underdeveloped), and money (hmm, they're technologically underdeveloped). It's not about _Morale_ per se, but its _impact_ in the game. What you're saying is similar to why should the energy bonus affect the output of fusion plants.
Point is, which is "less canon", backwards minors researching as highly developed empires as soon as they join such an empire, or their morale level (of which you only really see a general description in the form of a word in the system overview) actually representing their development aptitude?

Anyways...

---


Scanners:
Cardassians cannot upgrade a Listening Post to a Card Listening Post (in case of conquest for example). In fact the former obsoletes the latter. Same thing happens with the Isolinear Scanner and Card Isolinear Scanner.
The Isolinear Scanner should also upgrade to the Card Covert Sensor Array, as the latter obsoletes the former.
I'm not sure the Minor Tachyon Defense Grid should be related to these structures (upgrade/obsolete), as it doesn't provide scan range, only %ASDef and ACloak.
If I conquer a system with a top of the line scanner, I cannot upgrade it to my own empire's top of the line scanner, right? It's a bit odd, them obsoleting all the others.

Asteroid Sweeper, Klingon Aqua-Dredge, Desalination Plants, don't have the RawMaterialsBonus restriction.

Resistance Network should have a Native System restriction, not NonNative, to be consistent with Bunker Network and Klingon Bunker Stations (else it doesn't work).

Card Metagenics Lab should probably have a Native System restriction.

Card Mining Program, Card Basic Replicator, Klin Simulator Lab, don't have any tech requirements.

Dom Vorta Cloning Lab doesn't have the OpE restriction.

Shipyards:
Minor Medium and Advanced Shipyards don't have any upgrade options (including from Medium to Advanced).
Kli shipyard III doesn't upgrade to fleetyard.
The fleetyards should all probably be Native systems only.

Ships:
Fed Hospital Ship II, Frigate II, Transport II, are set to Colony
Fed Heavy Cruiser III has raw materials cost = 89128960 and is set to Colony
Fed Tactical Cruiser has raw materials cost = 94371840
Cardassian ships don't upgrade
Card Transport II and III, Destroyer II, Cruiser II and III and IV, Heavy Cruiser II, are set to Colony
Bolian Freighter I and II are set as Construction but have no Work capacity set. Should they be Transports? They don't seem to have the raw materials cost of construction ships.
The Fed Construction Ship II upgrades to (and obsoletes) Construction Ship I.
Breen BattleCruisers, Boslic Transports, Coridan Cruisers, are obsoleting 1 level lower ships instead of 2.

----

Back to the Rakosans issue. They're still doubled in the TechTrees.xml file. Should be easy enough to edit the file by hand and remove the Rakhosans entry (and update Races.xml).


TechTrees.xml

- <TechTree Civilization="RAKHOSANS">
<ProductionFacilities />
- <Buildings>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SECURITY_BUREAU</Building>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SURVEILLANCE_SYSTEM</Building>
<Building>MINOR_ADVANCED_GRAVITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_AIR_COMMAND_HQ</Building>
<Building>MINOR_BASIC_SHELTERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_CIVILIAN_RESERVE</Building>
<Building>MINOR_FIGHTER_SQUADRONS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_GRAVITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_HARDENED_BUNKERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_HEAVY_BUNKERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_MISSILE_SILO</Building>
<Building>MINOR_MOLECULAR_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_POSITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_COMBAT_GRID</Building>
<Building>MINOR_TACHYON_DEFENCE_GRID</Building>
<Building>MINOR_RESISTANCE_CELLS</Building>

- <TechTree Civilization="RAKOSANS">
<ProductionFacilities />
- <Buildings>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SECURITY_BUREAU</Building>
<Building>RAKOSAN_SURVEILLANCE_SYSTEM</Building>
<Building>MINOR_ADVANCED_GRAVITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_AIR_COMMAND_HQ</Building>
<Building>MINOR_BASIC_SHELTERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_CIVILIAN_RESERVE</Building>
<Building>MINOR_COMBAT_GRID</Building>
<Building>MINOR_FIGHTER_SQUADRONS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_GRAVITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_HARDENED_BUNKERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_HEAVY_BUNKERS</Building>
<Building>MINOR_MISSILE_SILO</Building>
<Building>MINOR_MOLECULAR_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_POSITRON_SHIELD</Building>
<Building>MINOR_TACHYON_DEFENCE_GRID</Building>
<Building>MINOR_RESISTANCE_CELLS</Building>

Races.xml

- <Race Key="RAKHOSANS">
<SingularName>Rakhosan</SingularName>
<PluralName>Rakhosans</PluralName>
<Description>The Rakosans employ a series of deep space scanners and surveillance devices to protect their planet. It has thus far proven its value as a measure of prudence - particularly in granting the Rakosans an early warning capability to detect invaders, raiders, or any other nearby spacecraft. Their world suffers from overpopulation, so the first step in assisting their people would be the expansion and continued development of their home system.</Description>
<HomePlanetType>Barren</HomePlanetType>


17 Mar 2009, 13:26
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In BotE, minors use buildings with the output from their most alike major, i.e. when a minor joins a major, the major has control and can build buildings with a different output to reflect the minor's uniqueness. You can of course set additional modifiers to this output but since the existing buildings on the minor's home system(s) are techupgrade-wise adapted to their development level (i.e. a underdeveloped minor comes with low-tech buildings hence low output), a morale effect is not needed here since you can upgrade those buildings and "erase" the effect over time just as it should be.


17 Mar 2009, 14:31
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Meh, my final word on the morale issue is leave it to Mike. It's his decision in the end.[/change subject] :lol:

.Iceman wrote:
Cardassians cannot upgrade a Listening Post to a Card Listening Post (in case of conquest for example). In fact the former obsoletes the latter. Same thing happens with the Isolinear Scanner and Card Isolinear Scanner.
The Isolinear Scanner should also upgrade to the Card Covert Sensor Array, as the latter obsoletes the former.
I'm not sure the Minor Tachyon Defense Grid should be related to these structures (upgrade/obsolete), as it doesn't provide scan range, only %ASDef and ACloak.
If I conquer a system with a top of the line scanner, I cannot upgrade it to my own empire's top of the line scanner, right? It's a bit odd, them obsoleting all the others.
I've made some changes to the upgrade/obsoletion paths. Check your PM's and let me know what you think. I already removed the Tachyon Defense Grid association a day or two ago after your last post about it.

.Iceman wrote:
Asteroid Sweeper, Klingon Aqua-Dredge, Desalination Plants, don't have the RawMaterialsBonus restriction.
No, they don't need this restriction because they already have other relevant restrictions. The Asteroid Sweeper turns Asteroids into raw materials - you can't "mine" Asteroids because the Sweeper does it for you. The Aqua-Dredge turns the silt and sludge on the ocean floor into raw materials - again, sludge isn't really mineable, the Aqua-Dredge doe sit for you. The Desalination Plants produce raw materials as a by-product of the way they work. Again, you can't really "mine" sea water. All of these things are naturally occuring objects/substances that have at least some value if used correctly. Just because a planet doesn't have any useful rock deposits doesn't mean it didn't once have them because of erosion etc. So adding the raw materials restriction doesn't make sense because raw materials generally means there is something mineable. All systems produce at least a small amount or raw materials, but systems with the raw materials bonus produce much greater amounts per turn.

.Iceman wrote:
Resistance Network should have a Native System restriction, not NonNative, to be consistent with Bunker Network and Klingon Bunker Stations (else it doesn't work).
Yes it should and now it does.

.Iceman wrote:
Card Metagenics Lab should probably have a Native System restriction.
Yes it should and now it does.

.Iceman wrote:
Card Mining Program, Card Basic Replicator, Klin Simulator Lab, don't have any tech requirements.
Card Mining Program now needs 2 Construction, 2 Energy, and 2 Weapons (Same as Rom Imperial Mining Program). the Card Basic Replicator and the Kling Simulator Lab DO have tech requirements set.

.Iceman wrote:
Dom Vorta Cloning Lab doesn't have the OpE restriction.
It does now.

.Iceman wrote:
Shipyards:
Minor Medium and Advanced Shipyards don't have any upgrade options (including from Medium to Advanced).
Kli shipyard III doesn't upgrade to fleetyard.
The fleetyards should all probably be Native systems only.
The minor races don't have any fleetyards, so their advanced shipyard doesn't get any upgrades. I've fixed the problem with the medium shipyard though.

I've made some major changes to the prerequisites for all of the non-special shipyards. All shipyards can now upgrade to follow the upgrade paths of another race if the system is conquered. For this reason, I have set each shipyard prerequisite individually - so the prerequisites might look a little strange from now on when you look at the files, .Iceman. This is intentional, so don't worry about it. The strange setup means you don't need all of the shipyard structures that are in the game beforr you can upgrade it to the next level, which would obviously be impossible for players to have.

I've also standardised the object names for all of the non-special shipyards. That should make it easier for people to find the shipyards in future should they want to mod the game. So for example instead of it being Fed_MK_I_Starfleet_Shipyard, it's now Fed_Shipyard_I and so on. The object names remain the same though, so there won't be any difference ingame.

.Iceman wrote:
Ships:
Fed Hospital Ship II, Frigate II, Transport II, are set to Colony
Fed Heavy Cruiser III has raw materials cost = 89128960 and is set to Colony
Fed Tactical Cruiser has raw materials cost = 94371840
Cardassian ships don't upgrade
Card Transport II and III, Destroyer II, Cruiser II and III and IV, Heavy Cruiser II, are set to Colony
Bolian Freighter I and II are set as Construction but have no Work capacity set. Should they be Transports? They don't seem to have the raw materials cost of construction ships.
The Fed Construction Ship II upgrades to (and obsoletes) Construction Ship I.
Breen BattleCruisers, Boslic Transports, Coridan Cruisers, are obsoleting 1 level lower ships instead of 2.
All fixed. Cardassian ships now also have weapons, and I added in the missing Konar class Heavy Destroyer I description.

The Rakhosans are now dead. :wink:

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17 Mar 2009, 20:28
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
No, they don't need this restriction because they already have other relevant restrictions. The Asteroid Sweeper turns Asteroids into raw materials - you can't "mine" Asteroids because the Sweeper does it for you.


If it turns asteroids into raw materials, how can it not need asteroids?! :?

Quote:
All of these things are naturally occuring objects/substances that have at least some value if used correctly. Just because a planet doesn't have any useful rock deposits doesn't mean it didn't once have them because of erosion etc.


If it once did, it *has* raw materials. They don't disappear, just because they took another form. The resource is not called mineable, rock-state raw materials, is it? :wink:

Quote:
So adding the raw materials restriction doesn't make sense because raw materials generally means there is something mineable. All systems produce at least a small amount or raw materials, but systems with the raw materials bonus produce much greater amounts per turn.


*If* this is indeed a bug, and every system actually does produce (will produce in the future) raw materials, this would be ok - of course, a small % of a very small amount is perfectly negligible, and not really worth the cost, but that's another issue. If, however, it's not a bug and only systems with the raw materials bonus are meant to actually produce raw materials (which is how it's working now - barring the zero extraction bug), then it does make sense.

Quote:
The minor races don't have any fleetyards, so their advanced shipyard doesn't get any upgrades.


If fleetyards don't get the native system restriction, then you might want to upgrade the advanced shipyard of a minor that joins your empire to your empire's fleetyard.


18 Mar 2009, 10:11
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.Iceman wrote:
If it turns asteroids into raw materials, how can it not need asteroids?! :?
? It does have an Asteroid restriction. :?

.Iceman wrote:
If it once did, it *has* raw materials. They don't disappear, just because they took another form. The resource is not called mineable, rock-state raw materials, is it? :wink:
It implies it though. I could always change raw materials to say "rock materials" you know. :P

.Iceman wrote:
*If* this is indeed a bug, and every system actually does produce (will produce in the future) raw materials, this would be ok - of course, a small % of a very small amount is perfectly negligible, and not really worth the cost, but that's another issue. If, however, it's not a bug and only systems with the raw materials bonus are meant to actually produce raw materials (which is how it's working now - barring the zero extraction bug), then it does make sense.
We'll just have to wait for the results on that one.

.Iceman wrote:
If fleetyards don't get the native system restriction, then you might want to upgrade the advanced shipyard of a minor that joins your empire to your empire's fleetyard.
Fleetyards do now have the Native System restriction - it was in the update I sent you last night. The only technical exception to this is Utopia Planitia, and that's because it has a Home System restriction already.

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18 Mar 2009, 17:01
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
? It does have an Asteroid restriction. :?


Argh, the raw materials restriction! Sorry about the confusion. These were all about the raw materials bug/non-bug thing.

Quote:
Fleetyards do now have the Native System restriction - it was in the update I sent you last night.


Only got it this morning, haven't been home yet. I'm not :borg:


18 Mar 2009, 19:11
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
I've made some changes to the upgrade/obsoletion paths. Check your PM's and let me know what you think.


The Card Listening Post cannot be upgraded to an Isolinear Scanner; in case of conquest of a system with one of these, no more upgrades can be made. Same thing with the Isolinear Scanner to other empires' top of the line scanners.

The Minor Tachyon Defence Grid upgrades from and obsoletes the Isolinear Scanner, even though it is not a scanner. Doesn't make much sense.


Quote:
No, they don't need this restriction because they already have other relevant restrictions.


Why not just give them a hard raw materials bonus instead of a % bonus? %s again. Problem solved.


Quote:
Card Mining Program now needs 2 Construction, 2 Energy, and 2 Weapons (Same as Rom Imperial Mining Program).


- <Building Key="ROM_IMPERIAL_MINING_PROGRAM">
- <TechRequirements>
<BioTech>2</BioTech>
<Energy>2</Energy>
<Computers>3</Computers>
<Construction>3</Construction>
Just a heads-up, not exactly the same.


Quote:
the Card Basic Replicator and the Kling Simulator Lab DO have tech requirements set.


I meant no restrictions. Sorry, a mixup on my part.


Quote:
I've made some major changes to the prerequisites for all of the non-special shipyards.


I don't have the energy to look at those just yet, but I will as soon as I can.


Quote:
I've also standardised the object names for all of the non-special shipyards.


I've already seen a few that don't conform to this (either the Dom or Card shipyard I that I can remember), but that'll also have to wait.


Quote:
The Rakhosans are now dead. :wink:


Not quite. :D TechTrees.xml still has both the Rakosans and the Rakhosans techtrees. You do know how to edit the xml file, right?


19 Mar 2009, 12:19
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Sometimes I just want to bang my head against a wall. I honestly don't understand how these problems are still there. I fixed them i'm telling you! Grr...stupid editor. Right then, check your PM's. If any of these problems show up again i'll...do something... :lol:

Ignore my comment about the mining programs being the same, Dafedz recently made some changes to the database, thats why the apparent inconsistency is there. They are meant to be different.

The offending shipyard was the Dominion fleetyard. Fixed.

Cheek! Of course I know how to edit an .xml file! How else do you think I made the err...recent minor changes that we discussed but didn't want Mike to know about? :mischief:

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19 Mar 2009, 13:18
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Hehe, those changes were in a plain text file, the definition files in \Tables. This is about the xml files, in \Data. [Just checked it, and now they are dead :wink: ]

Got your PM, will check it tonight when I get home. Meanwhile, here's some more stuff from the previous versions, stuff in that huge post I mentioned that wasn't fixed, and stuff concerning the previous fixes. Some might be intentional (not to fix), some are definitely not. It's a lot of stuff, I'll let you sort it out :D



Type 1 University is producing 12000 research (instead of 12). Probably a leftover from testing.

Research Matrix
In level 4 techs for the Dominion, unlocked techs include the Type 4 University (Federation).

Trade Centre upgrades to Trade Hub, but Trade Hub does not obsolete Trade Centre. They shouldn't be cumulative.
Trade Centre doesn't have any restrictions (which makes Trade Hub not have too), should probably have OpS (in case the default OpS is fixed). Same happens with the Fed Replicator Plants.

Starfleet Intelligence
Doesn't have the One Per Empire restriction. For consistency only.

ASDB Complex
The Dilithium restriction is a bit redundant because Sol has the Dilithium bonus by default. Even if it were made not to have, then the facility wouldn't make sense.
Same thing for the Dilithium Cracking Station of the Coridan (BTW, its description text sounds more like a first contact text than the description of a facility of a race which *already* is allied with you...)

None of the universal scanners have the OpS restriction (besides the default).

If I conquer a system with a top of the line scanner, I cannot upgrade it to my own empire's top of the line scanner, right? It's a bit odd, them obsoleting all the others.

Cardassians cannot upgrade a Listening Post to a Card Listening Post (in case of conquest for example). In fact the former obsoletes the latter. Same thing happens with the Isolinear Scanner and Card Isolinear Scanner.

Aquasphere
The description mentions a Biotech research bonus; Statistics says +100 Research (global) though.

Planetary Shield doesn't have the OpS restriction.

Starfleet Academy
It's a OpS and OpE facility, shouldn't it also have the Home System restriction?

Subspace Jammer doesn't have any restrictions.

Fed Global Defense Net
No restrictions whatsoever. Should probably have OpS (in case the default OpS is fixed).
Should probably give an Anti-Ship Defense (-> Defence) bonus, and not a +% Anti-Ship Defense - if there isn't already an ASDef value, GDN does nothing, and its description sounds silly (and misleading).

(Elaysians) Low-Grav Resort
The Non-Native System restriction should be removed.

Some structures are set to not be universal, but they're not in any empire's techtree: Aquaculture Centre, Commerce Centre, Commercial Exchange, Commercial Hub, Subspace Jammer.
(The Aquaculture Centre could actually help the Romulans at game start)

Card Obsidian Order
Is still missing the One Per Empire restriction.

Card ReEducation Centre doesn't have any restrictions.

Rom Reman Dilithium Mine doesn't have the OpE restriction.

Rom State Broadcast Bureau should probably have a native System restriction (OpE).

(Klingon) Great Hall
Should it have the OpE restriction?

The Cardassian Relocation Project has energy cost 200, and restriction NonNativeSystem, while the Romulan and Federation equivalents have zero and Moons respectively. The Klingons and Dominion don't have these?

(Klingon) War Room
Is it supposed to only have the OpS restriction (default)?

(Klingon) Forced Labour Farms
Should also have the Conquered System restriction, like the Foundry?

The Klingon and Fed Apothecaries don't have any restrictions.

The Combat Grid (minors) should get the OpS restriction, or you can build as many as you want (in case the default OpS is fixed).

The Cardassian Union Broadcast Network doesn't have any Restrictions. Besides the OpS default that is, but if that is fixed, it isn't restricted in number. Since it grants +1 morale empire wide, even the OpS might be a bit much.

The Klingon Mark 1 and Mark 2 Replicators don't have an upgrade/obsoletion link. They also have no restrictions. They're worthless because of the Basic Food Processor, which is supposed to not have any restriction, and is much cheaper and consumes much less energy.

Shipyards (level 1) should get the OpS restriction. They should obsolete the minors shipyards too (Romulan already does).

Minor Advanced Shipyard is available at tech level 8 instead of 9.

Is it intended that the Cardassian shipyard III has energy cost only 75 and 6 build slots? A bit inconsistent with the respective fleetyard.

Cardassian Colony ships still don't upgrade.

Bolian Freighter II doesn't obsolete Bolian Freighter I.

Breen BattleCruiser III is obsoleting Breen BattleCruiser II instead of Breen BattleCruiser I.

Coridan Cruiser II is obsoleting Coridan Cruiser I.






Minors:

Acamarians
They're described as "With the military infrastructure that they have, they are more than capable of defending their homeworld.", and they're considered Developed, but their techtree only includes the Civilian Reserve and Resistance Cells defensive techs (plus the Orbital Batteries).

Algolians
Should the Algolians be Backward techwise, with the minor structures they get (compared to other minors) and the gift for intellectual capacity they're described as having?

Cytherans
They're supposed to be made of pure energy, but they can build all of the defensive structures for minors (probably because of the Supreme tech rating).


HomeSystems.xml:

Arbazan
Arbaza I should be called Arbaza, according to the race's description.

B'Omar
Their homeworld: Bomar -> B'Omar

Ba'ku
Their homeworld: Ba'Ku -> Ba'ku

Elaysians
Elaya III should be called Elaya, according to the race's and Low-Grav Resort descriptions.

Ferengi
Races.xml, is their homeworld really supposed to be the Oceanic planet, or should it be the Jungle planet instead? The system has both set as mandatory.

Yaderans
Swap homesystem (Yadera Prime) and homeworld (Yadera) names.

Races whose Inhabitants are set as Humans:
Baneans, Malcorians, Mintakans, Pakled

Races that don't force the class of the homeworld:
Bothans, Coridan, Dosi, Sheliak (system has no planets AT ALL)

Star system name and type not defined:
Tilonians

Unnecessary <Planet /> tags (probably leftovers from editing):
Zibalians, Ventaxians, Ullians, Tilonians, Tanugans, Talosians, Takarans, Sikarians, Rutians, Ramatians, Wadi, Trill, Tholians, Tellarites, Son'a



Systems that can have more than 10 orbits:

HomeSystems.xml
Bre'ellians 10~11 orbits
Coridan 3~11



TechTrees.xml
The Axanar, Coridan, Kazon and Tellarites shouldn't have the Basic/Medium/Advanced Shipyards, since their special shipyards are supposed to obsolete them.
The Alsaurians have shipyards but have no ship designs.
The Brekkians have one ship design but no shipyards.

TechObjectDatabase.xml / TechTrees.xml
For easier reference:
HYDROPONICS_DOME -> CARD_HYDROPONICS_DOME
FREE_MARKET -> FED_FREE_MARKET
PRIVATE_FARMS -> FED_PRIVATE_FARMS
HOLOCENTRE -> FED_HOLOCENTRE
AGRICULTURAL_CENTRES -> FED_AGRICULTURAL_CENTRES



Ships:

All ships should require at least Propulsion 1, which is the Warp Drive (probably Construction and Weapons 1 too, while at it). The Outpost I should also probably require Construction and Weapons 1.

Federation New York Class
Upgrade Options reads Berlin Class (which is the predecessor, Obsoleted Item).

Dominion Battle Cruiser III
Has Range = 0.

A bunch of Cardassian ships have no Dilithium cost.

All Cardassian colony ships have no Work Capacity set, that's why they can't colonise. The Federation Colony Ship III has the same problem. It's easy enough to fix (TechObjectDatabase.xml).

I was under the impression that you said that Federation colonies were supposed to be the best, but the Work Capacity of their colony ships is actually the worst (25 vs 50 for everyone else in Colony Ship I, 50 vs 100/150 in Colony Ship II). That means the colonies start with not only half the pop of others, but also half the initial structures (as they're related).

The Romulan Transport Ship II has Work Capacity = 50 (same as the I), it should probably be 100 like every other empire (the III has 150).

The Colony Ship II for the Klingons and Dominion (they don't have the III) have the same Build Cost (approx.), Raw Materials and Crew as regular IIs, even though they have the Work Capacity of IIIs (and are armed). Maybe an intermediate value?

The Federation Colony Ship I has a value for Population Health, no other colony ship in the game does. Intended?

The Romulan Colony Ship III is a bit on the cheap side, when compared to the others.

Acamarian Raider I: are the Scan Power and Sensor Range values switched?

Angosian Transport: no Crew.

Bilanaian Destroyer: no Tech preReqs, Type = Colony.

Boslic Transport II: no Dilithium cost.

Breen Battlecruiser III: ClassName = Breen Corasta Class -> Corasta.

Brekkian Transport: no Tech preReqs.

Bynar Cruiser: Type = Colony.

Caldonian Explorer: Type = Colony.

Denobulan Frigate: Range = 0, no Maneuverability value.

Dosi Cruiser: no Tech preReqs.


19 Mar 2009, 14:03
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Oh boy...uber post time.

Yeah, I was doing some testing on the university. I noticed it this morning and fixed it after I sent you the update.

The type 4 Research Lab was set to produce Intel not Research; since the Dominion didn't therefore have a research building, the game defaulted to Universities. Fixed.

Trade Hub now obsoletes Trade Centre. Trade Centre, Trade Hub, and Replicator Plants now have Native System restrictions for the time being.

Starfleet intelligence now has a One Per Empire restriction. Players wouldn't be able to build more than one anyways - it already had a One Per System and Home System restriction.

Dilithium restriction removed from ASDB Complex. I personally would like it if the structure used up 1 Dilithium per turn - it is performing research afterall. There's no such option in the editor at the moment to set this though.

I see what you mean about the Coridan structure, but that's how it is in Dafedz's database. I've rewritten the text and will let Dafedz know about the change.

Why would you put a restriction on the scanners? They never had a restriction in BOTF, and I don't see a reason to change this.

There's only so much I can do with the editor; what I could really use is a fourth box - a "removed structure" box alongside the Prerequisite, Obsolete, and Upgrade boxes. This box would then allow me to remove stuff without obsoleting it if it already exists. Without it, if you were to upgrade a top-of-the-line scanner to another type, you *need* it to obsolete the old one or you'll end up with both. But obsoleting the other structures means you can't build them so the cycle repeats. Not being able to upgrade them is the only way around the problem at the moment.

I fixed the Scanners this morning.

The Aquasphere *should* produce Biotech research, but it's impossible to set this - and i'm not even sure if Mike will be able to program it. I'll remove the biotech bit from the text instead.

As i've said before, ignore the One Per System restriction for the time being. It's buggy. I tried deselecting then reselecting the One Per System option to see if it had any effect though, so check it for me.

Starfleet Academy now has a Home System restriction.

The Subspace Jammer was supposed to have an x per empire restriction. Since no such restriction exists though, the restrictions are a bit in limbo.

I've added Orbital Batteries as a prerequisite for the Global Defence Net. It WILL provide a bonus without needing any other change that way.

Non-Native System restriction removed from Elaysian Low-Grav Resort.

The Aquaculture Centre IS meant to be a Romulan structure - but its tech requirements and build costs are also supposed to be higher, so it won't be of benefit to them straight away as you suggest. I've fixed it now, and changed the associated image name name so it continues to work.
The Commerce Centre is meant to be the Cardassian Centre of Commerce. Fixed.
The Commercial Exchange is meant to be a Dominion structure. Fixed.
The Commercial Hub...shouldn't exist. Removed.
Subspace Jammers are now Universal.

Obsidian Order now has a One Per Empire restriction. I'm sure I already fixed that though. Wierd.

Re-Education Centre now has a native System restriction.

Reman Dilithium Mine now has a One Per Empire restriction.

State Broadcast Bureau now has a Home System restriction.

Great hall now has a One Per Empire restriction. Native System restriction has been changed to Home System.

There was an ancient thread on the forums where we discussed the Moon colonization. Actually it was a thread started by me. We came to the conclusion that the Klingons and Dominion shouldn't have it. I have no idea what this reason was now, and it sounds silly not to let them all have it, so all of the empires are going to have a colonization project of some kind. I'm still discussing with Dafedz the build costs etc. Obviously the stats for the Cardassian project will be changed as part of that. Chances are that any energy requirements will be scrapped to avoid problems with players murdering their people for a bit of energy. :P

War Room now has a One Per Empire and Home System restrictions.

Forced Labour Farms now have a Conquered System restriction.

Apothecaries, health Clinics, and Medical Centres now have Native System restrictions.

Combat Gird...meh you know by now not to mention the One Per System problem. :P

Union Broadcast Network now has a Home System and One Per Empire restriction.

I've made changes to the Basic Food Processor, Mark 1 Replicator and Mark 2 Replicator. I've notified Dafedz of the change as well.

As i've said, forget the One Per System restriction. I've already changed the shipyards so you're probably still looking at yesterday's files.

Advanced Shipyard now has a tech 9 requirement.

Mark III Union Shipyard now has 100 energy cost.

Cardassian Colony Ships now upgrade (And obsolete).

Breen Battlecruiser III now obsoletes Battlecruiser I.

Coridan Cruiser obsoletion has now been removed.

In TNG, the Acamarians were a relatively violent race with some spacefaring capability, but they were still relatively low tech. Their government was archaic and they had never - to my knowledge - fought an interplanetary war, so most of their military hardware was designed around fighting other clans/countries, rather than defending the whole planet or system from outside attack. So this means their hardware is best suited to more defensive rather than offensive roles. And that's why they only have Civilian Reserve and Resistance Cells.

You're correct about the Algolians. They should be Tech D - Developed - rather than backwards. Fixed.

Whilst the Cytherians are supposed to be a super race, this is still a game; you can get them to join you, therefore you have to be able to build stuff. The Cytherians are one of those races where we either sacrifice canon for gameplay by making them physical, or sacrifice canon for realism by removing the Cytherians from the game. We voted for gameplay over realism in this case. :P

Arbaza I is now called Arbaza.

B'Omar is now called...B'Omar.

Ba'Ku is now called Ba'ku.

It is unknown which planet in the Elaya system the Elaysians come from - why do you say Elaya III is their homeworld? There is no info on this in either Memory Alpha nor Memory Beta. Neither does it specify a specific planet in the Elaysian race info nor the Low-Grav Resort. Currently, their homeworld is set as Elaya I, which I have now renamed to Elaya.

The Ferengi homeworld is a Jungle. I've changed their prefered planet type to Jungle and I named the Jungle planet correctly.

Yadera Prime and Yadera swapped.

Baneans, Malcorians, Mintakans, and Pakled have no wiped out the Human invaders. :P

The Bothans, Coridan, Dosi, and Sheliak now have planets associated with them. I've given the Sheliak a particularly large system to make them more of a threat. (Several fanfics that i've read portray them as a very powerful race - in fact one of them has them declaring war against the Federation straight after the Dominion war and almost winning)

Unnecessary planet tags removed.

Bre'ell planet number decreased. Coridan only has 7 planets though. :?

The Axanar, Coridan, Kazon, and Tellarites can't actually build their own special shipyards! The empires build them in the minor race system IF that minor race joins. (Note: minor race subjugation does not grant access to special structures) This is why they have "normal" shipyards.

The Alsaurians no longer have shipyards, but the Brekkians now do.

The Hydroponics Dome is buildable by both the Cardassians and the Federation, so its name tag remains the same. Structure added to Federation build list.
Free Market fixed.
Private Farms are buildable by all of the empires, except the Klingons (Who have Private Ranches) so the name tags remain the same. Structure added to Cardassian, Dominion, and Romulan build lists.
Holocentre name tag updated.
Agricultural Centre name tag updated.

The ships are still a work-in-progress. I'm getting through them bit by bit, so you'll just have to wait for that. There's over 400 ships, plus 26 stations for me to sort out, so it's gonna take a while.

I fixed the New York class last night.

Dominion Battle Cruiser III. Range changed to 24.

The Dilithium costs for ALL ships are going to be changing soon. The lack of a cost is inconsequential at the moment.

I didn't realise the work capacities had anything to do with colonies. I thought work capacity was for transports only. (Since they build stations) I've just been blindly applying the numbers from Dafedz's database, but didn't really understand the Work Capacity stat (Which seems to double up as both construction rate and terraforming rate at the moment)

Romulan Transport II work capacity increased.

Build costs for Dominion and Klingon Colony Ship II's increased by 1000.

Population health stat removed from Federation Colony Ship I.

Build cost of Romulan Colony Ship III increased by 500. (It's still the cheapest but it has the worst shield recharge rate, the worst weapon refire rate, and the joint shortest fuel range. The cheap build cost also makes it the most expensive to maintain)

Yes, the Scan Power and Scan Range were switched. Fixed.

Angosian Transport now has 50 crew.

Bilanaian Destroyer fixed.

Boslic Transport II: as above, Dilithium stats do not mater at the moment.

Breen Battlecruiser III: Class name fixed.

Brekkian Transport: it has no tech requirements in the database.

Caldonian Explorer: now a Science ship.

Denobulan Frigate: Range = 10, Maneuverability = 5.

Dosi Cruiser: Now a tech 5 ship.

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20 Mar 2009, 02:04
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
Why would you put a restriction on the scanners? They never had a restriction in BOTF, and I don't see a reason to change this.


To prevent people from building more than one in a system? Either by accident or because they don't know they're not cumulative? If they're not cumulative, why wouldn't they have the restriction? Again, it's the impact in the game that's important.

Quote:
The Aquasphere *should* produce Biotech research, but it's impossible to set this - and i'm not even sure if Mike will be able to program it. I'll remove the biotech bit from the text instead.


The research screen does have provisions for specific area bonuses, and a few other structures do grant those bonuses...

Quote:
As i've said before, ignore the One Per System restriction for the time being. It's buggy. I tried deselecting then reselecting the One Per System option to see if it had any effect though, so check it for me.


What matters is what's in the database I guess, not what's in the editor. As long as the database itself is correct, the editor doesn't matter. When it is fixed, the database will be correct.
That's why I'm always mentioning the OpS thing - because I *won't* go back to it later, it'll have to be you screening the database. I've done all the work now, if you don't want to use it, that's your choice :wink:

Quote:
As i've said, forget the One Per System restriction. I've already changed the shipyards so you're probably still looking at yesterday's files.


Actually, the shipyards were still messed up with the update before this one (20-03).
Unfortunately I forgot to bring my updated files...

Quote:
It is unknown which planet in the Elaya system the Elaysians come from - why do you say Elaya III is their homeworld? There is no info on this in either Memory Alpha nor Memory Beta. Neither does it specify a specific planet in the Elaysian race info nor the Low-Grav Resort. Currently, their homeworld is set as Elaya I, which I have now renamed to Elaya.


Can't really recall, it's was too long ago. Maybe I just mixed things up in my files. I'll check.

Quote:
The Axanar, Coridan, Kazon, and Tellarites can't actually build their own special shipyards!


Why not? It's in their tech tree...

Quote:
I didn't realise the work capacities had anything to do with colonies. I thought work capacity was for transports only. (Since they build stations) I've just been blindly applying the numbers from Dafedz's database, but didn't really understand the Work Capacity stat (Which seems to double up as both construction rate and terraforming rate at the moment)


Mike mentioned that just the other day :wink:


20 Mar 2009, 11:04
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Quote:
To prevent people from building more than one in a system? Either by accident or because they don't know they're not cumulative? If they're not cumulative, why wouldn't they have the restriction? Again, it's the impact in the game that's important.
This is the One Per Empire restriction problem again. They WILL have this particular restriction turned on once the restriction is fixed. By the way, scan strengths are NOT accumulative - not even for ships. So if you had two ships with a scan strength of 1, that does not mean you have a scan strength of 2 in the system. I know scan strengths aren't yet implemented for structures, but the same rule applies.

Quote:
The research screen does have provisions for specific area bonuses, and a few other structures do grant those bonuses...
The specific bonuses are percentage bonuses rather than physical bonuses. I would have to set it to a 1% bonus or soemthing. Remember that the only restriction is Oceanic planets - if players just happened to colonise systems with a lot of these, that 1% bonus would suddenly become a lot larger.

Quote:
What matters is what's in the database I guess, not what's in the editor. As long as the database itself is correct, the editor doesn't matter. When it is fixed, the database will be correct.
That's why I'm always mentioning the OpS thing - because I *won't* go back to it later, it'll have to be you screening the database. I've done all the work now, if you don't want to use it, that's your choice :wink:
I don't want to risk adding things into the files manually - doing so has already caused me broken files a number of times. The game is currently designed such that you generally *need* to use the editor to make changes, otherwise you'll end up with a mismatch between the .xml and database files. Mike told me in a recent PM that he's going to be scrapping certain parts of the database system in favour of .xml though because all of the problems the database system is causing. I don't know how long it will take him to deimplement the database system though. As soon as I know it is safe to do so, i'll go through all the structures and ensure it is added.

Quote:
Actually, the shipyards were still messed up with the update before this one (20-03).
Unfortunately I forgot to bring my updated files...
Not messed up...just ever so slightly flawed. Call it Romulan sabotage if you wish. :mischief: Fixed.

Quote:
Why not? It's in their tech tree...
Simple game mechanics. The structures are there so that the empires can build them. While they are structures that the minor races might need or want, they will only be available if they join an empire and that empire builds the structure. If it didn't work that way, it would be impossible to build the structure if you member a race before they've built it for you. It's just the way the game works. Same as with BOTF.

Quote:
Mike mentioned that just the other day :?
I can't remember what I had for breakfast. Oh...wait...that's coz I didn't have any. Breakfast time! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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20 Mar 2009, 11:43
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
This is the One Per Empire restriction problem again. They WILL have this particular restriction turned on once the restriction is fixed. By the way, scan strengths are NOT accumulative - not even for ships. So if you had two ships with a scan strength of 1, that does not mean you have a scan strength of 2 in the system. I know scan strengths aren't yet implemented for structures, but the same rule applies.


It seems we're always speaking different languages. I meant *all* scanners, not just the top-of-the-line ones. Only one scanner per system is considered, right? So why not restrict them to OpS? I think this is a pretty obvious and *simple* observation. No one will be tempted to build more than one like this, by whatever reason. It has no other impact in the game other than make it play like it should. It's not even a very hard task to set it in the editor. I only see advantages. So what exactly is the problem?! :?

Quote:
The specific bonuses are percentage bonuses rather than physical bonuses. I would have to set it to a 1% bonus or soemthing. Remember that the only restriction is Oceanic planets - if players just happened to colonise systems with a lot of these, that 1% bonus would suddenly become a lot larger.


My observation had as a basis precisely that. I thought it was supposed to have a % bonus like other structures. Even though % bonuses are more trouble than they're worth... I guess you meant the game doesn't handle fixed area bonuses then. IMO *all* bonuses should be like that.

Quote:
I don't want to risk adding things into the files manually - doing so has already caused me broken files a number of times. The game is currently designed such that you generally *need* to use the editor to make changes, otherwise you'll end up with a mismatch between the .xml and database files. Mike told me in a recent PM that he's going to be scrapping certain parts of the database system in favour of .xml though because all of the problems the database system is causing. I don't know how long it will take him to deimplement the database system though. As soon as I know it is safe to do so, i'll go through all the structures and ensure it is added.


*Adding*? No, no need to add anything manually. On the contrary. All the structures with no # restriction are set correctly *in the database* (they only show OpS by default in the editor). So they'll work correctly once the game is fixed. The problem is those that _*DON'T*_ have the hard-set OpS restriction, which is what I've been trying to tell you for ages :wink: Those you can force *in the editor*, to update the database. There. Easy, simple, I can't explain it any better, sorry. It's rather obvious. The xml will be correctly updated once you set these in the editor, which is a few clicks only. If it's done now, no need to go through it later. Wheeew, this *is* the last time I mention it, you can be relieved :D

Quote:
Simple game mechanics. The structures are there so that the empires can build them. While they are structures that the minor races might need or want, they will only be available if they join an empire and that empire builds the structure. If it didn't work that way, it would be impossible to build the structure if you member a race before they've built it for you. It's just the way the game works. Same as with BOTF.


:? :? :?
Wow, just wow. So the minors can build the basic structures (at least I'm assuming so), but they can't build their own special structures?! Cough. Is there a remotely logical gameplay reason for this?


20 Mar 2009, 13:46
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hm, I don't get the impossible to build part either but there are buildings depending on their description that only make sense to be built after membership like if I remember right the Templan Disease type of building which they could not have achieved without a major that helped them "build" the thing or others. It could be a tag in the editor if the minor can pre-build his own special structure, or only when having an affiliation with a major or membership.


20 Mar 2009, 15:06
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.Iceman wrote:
Wow, just wow. So the minors can build the basic structures (at least I'm assuming so), but they can't build their own special structures?! Cough. Is there a remotely logical gameplay reason for this?

Yes. The special structures are intended as a bonus for convincing a minor race to join the player's empire, but not a free bonus. They take time to build. To ensure that a player has to endure the construction period, minor races are unable to build those structures on their own. Most of them are of little or no use to a minor race anyway, as minor races don't evolve at the same pace as empires.

The decision here was to sacrifice realism for the same of gameplay. We have to make that decision a lot.

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22 Mar 2009, 20:52
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Well, they can build their own ships (supposedly), so why not their structures?! :? :wink:

Annexing a minor is always a good thing, if not for anything else, at least to deny it to another empire and to expand your own territory. It's true that some (if not most) are crap anyway, but that's yet another reason. Take the "resistance" type of structures - why would the minor need to join an empire to mount a resistance movement?! What good is that particualr structure for a major empire anyway? Why would a major empire bother building those instead of upgrading the minor's infrastructure to its own standard? Also, about a third of the minors are expansionists, right? Oh well.

---

While at it, here's some concerns (there are more) I have about the game:

The Raw Materials RNG has too large a range of values IMO. I've seen values as low as 25 and as high as 48. This is a huge difference, especially because it's not an intended one - meaning it's random, it's not race specific (though the race descriptions do allude to differences).

(Especially) for the smaller map sizes, the Range and Speed (and Fuel) values of higher level warships are exagerated.


23 Mar 2009, 12:19
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The Bilanaian Destroyer's Speed is not supposed to be 9, is it?

Bynar Cruiser: Type = Colony.

Fed Explorer III: Fuel = 0.

Type I University was supposed to have an output of 12, not 14.

Quote:
Build cost of Romulan Colony Ship III increased by 500. (It's still the cheapest but it has the worst shield recharge rate, the worst weapon refire rate, and the joint shortest fuel range. The cheap build cost also makes it the most expensive to maintain)

It's a colony ship, weapons, defenses and maintenance are hardly a concern, as these ships won't be active for long.

Quote:
The Hydroponics Dome is buildable by both the Cardassians and the Federation, so its name tag remains the same. Structure added to Federation build list.

Doesn't the Federation have enough Food structures as it is?!?! More than a third of all their structures are dedicated to food production...

Cardassian ships, Boslic Transport II: no Dilithium cost.
Quote:
The Dilithium costs for ALL ships are going to be changing soon. The lack of a cost is inconsequential at the moment.

Doesn't really hurt to set them to 1 like every other ship, does it? At least for the next release.

Quote:
The offending shipyard was the Dominion fleetyard. Fixed.

Not really:
Fed Shipyard II has prerequisites Dom shipyard II instead of I.
All Shipyards II (including minors) are still showing
<ObsoletedItem>DOM_BASIC_CONSTRUCTION_FACILITY</ObsoletedItem>
<Prerequisite>DOM_BASIC_CONSTRUCTION_FACILITY</Prerequisite>
Dom shipyard II only upgrades to Dom shipyard III, not the other empires'.
Dom shipyard III doesn't have complete prerequisites and obsoletions.
Card shipyard II doesn't obsolete Card shipyard I. Upgrades should be IIIs, not Is.
Rom shipyard II has prerequisites Dom shipyard II instead of I.

Is it actually intended that the Cardassians' shipyard III has 6 construction slots (like the fleetyard), instead of 4 like everyone else?

Scanners:
Card Isolinear Scanner should be able to upgrade to any other top-of-the-line scanner (besides the Card one), in case of conquest.
Not sure if the Listening Post shouldn't obsolete the Card Listening Post (no upgrade). Same thing for the Isolinear Scanner and Card Isolinear Scanner.


HomeSystems.xml:

Tilonians : their homeworld should be called Tilonus IV according to Races.xml, but the system only has one planet, unnamed; Star system name (Tilonus) and type are not defined.

"B'Omar is now called...B'Omar."
Is it supposed to be B'Omari like you spelled it, or simply B'Omar?

"Coridan only has 7 planets though."
Yes, *after* you made changes to the system...

before:
- <HomeSystem Civilization="CORIDAN">
- <StarSystem Name="Coridan" StarType="Orange">
<Inhabitants>CORIDAN</Inhabitants>
- <Bonuses>
<Bonus Type="Dilithium" />
<Bonus Type="RawMaterials" />
</Bonuses>
- <Planets>
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="1" MaxNumberOfPlanets="5" />
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="2" MaxNumberOfPlanets="6" />
</Planets>
</StarSystem>
</HomeSystem>

now:
- <HomeSystem Civilization="CORIDAN">
- <StarSystem Name="Coridan" StarType="Orange">
<Inhabitants>CORIDAN</Inhabitants>
- <Bonuses>
<Bonus Type="Dilithium" />
<Bonus Type="RawMaterials" />
</Bonuses>
- <Planets>
<Planet Name="Coridan" Type="Terran" Size="Large" />
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="3" MaxNumberOfPlanets="6" />
</Planets>
</StarSystem>
</HomeSystem>


23 Mar 2009, 12:26
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Yes, the speed is supposed to be 9. Obviously that sounds wrong though. i'll mention it to Dafedz.

Fuel was put as the cloak stat. Fixed.

Fixed. The empires might start getting race-specific bonuses soon though, so I might have to unfix it. :P

Yes, they probably do, but we also know that Food production generally isn't a concern in the Federation because they have so many different food sources. The large number of structures compared to the other empires simply reflects that.

Yes, but they are still weaknesses that account for the low cost.

Ignore the Dilithium costs for the time being, even if they're set at zero. I'm going to go through all of the ships and update this stat once Dafedz has finished updating the Dilithium costs in the database. The Cardassian ships lack this stat because the database didn't have a Dilithium stat when I implemented their ships.

? I just checked my files and none of the shipyard problems you've mentioned are present, other than the Cardassian ship slot problem. I'm guessing it's because I haven't sent you an update in a few days, that's all.

Cardassian Scanner fixed.

The Tilonus system is now named and has four planets. The planet itself isn't named because the game will work this out automatically.

Yes, I believe it is meant to be spelled that way. B'Omar is the system, B'Omari is the planet.

Yes, I made changes, but I made those changes before you mentioned the problem here. You mentioned it first elsewhere. I win on a technicality. :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Coridan problem arose because of an old bug in the editor - some pre-defined planets would revert to a group of random planets. I mmissed them out when I went through and fixed the systems so races always have a fixed homeworld.

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23 Mar 2009, 19:17
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
Yes, they probably do, but we also know that Food production generally isn't a concern in the Federation because they have so many different food sources. The large number of structures compared to the other empires simply reflects that.


Well, the fed also has a lot more structures than any other empire, like 30 something to 19~25 or so. Quite a few are from an upgrade path, which incidentally (like I already mentioned) have some very similar names which IMO is detracting (Replicator and Replicators IIRC for example). Most are % bonuses, and I also mentioned that already. And it increases the size of the database, and eventually turn processing time since minors use the fed's techtree.

Quote:
Yes, but they are still weaknesses that account for the low cost.


But if those weaknesses don't really count... anyways, i'm convinced (like I already mentioned) that these ships will seldom be used anyways.

Quote:
Yes, I believe it is meant to be spelled that way. B'Omar is the system, B'Omari is the planet.


Ok, was just an observation, I actually searched for it and found no mention of B'Omari, that's why I posted it.

Quote:
Yes, I made changes, but I made those changes before you mentioned the problem here. You mentioned it first elsewhere. I win on a technicality. :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Actually, IIRC I mentioned it *here* in this thread, but on a previous post. I just had it in my files and pasted it here again along with all other pending stuff :P (I could be wrong though)


24 Mar 2009, 12:43
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.Iceman wrote:
And it increases the size of the database, and eventually turn processing time since minors use the fed's techtree.
No it doesn't; the minors only use the Fed's Facilities techtree. The other structures are specific to the Federation only, so the minors don't have access to the Advanced Starship Design Bureau, for instance.

.Iceman wrote:
But if those weaknesses don't really count... anyways, i'm convinced (like I already mentioned) that these ships will seldom be used anyways.
But they are still systems that have to be built and maintained. The weapons are designed purely for defensive purposes and will be used to lay cover fire while the ships attempt to escape. The simply fact of the matter is that you're going to have to build colony ships if you want your empire to expand, and you're going to have to more them out to the frontiers to expand your influence. That in itself places the ships in potential warzones, so I think they're going to be present in combnat more than you think, albeit unintentionally.

.Iceman wrote:
Ok, was just an observation, I actually searched for it and found no mention of B'Omari, that's why I posted it.
It's entirely possible that i'm wrong. I've searched myself and I can't find it - but neither can I find any references to their homeworld. But i've got this a nagging feeling that i've heard the word used in Trek before, so in it went. In the absence of evidence, it just sounds like a potential name. :P

.Iceman wrote:
Actually, IIRC I mentioned it *here* in this thread, but on a previous post. I just had it in my files and pasted it here again along with all other pending stuff (I could be wrong though)
Fine then, I win in my head. Either way, i'm still happy. :bigthumb: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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25 Mar 2009, 01:20
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Bolians
Their description says they hail from the 9th planet in the Bolarus system, and their homesystem is setup that way, but in a game their homeworld was the 6th planet of 6 in the system.
Their system had 555 max Population BTW, 298 pop when they joined my empire (really early, no diplomacy). A bit much IMO.

I don't think there's really much of a point in Fed colonies starting with 55 pop instead of the standard 50 like every other empire. The difference is minimal, and they start with the same # of Production Facilities.

Research Matrix
Multifrequency Beams, the tech name is messed up, you probably forgot to change the Strings\en.txt file too.
Diffusion Bonding, same thing but it's the description that is not showing.

Shipyards:
Rom shipyard II has prerequisites Dom shipyard II instead of I.
Minor shipyard III doesn't upgrade to anything. That means you can upgrade a II to an empire's III, but a III will always remain a III - doesn't make sense.
Kazon Shipyard doesn't obsolete Utopia Planitia.

Scanners:
The Card Listening Post can upgrade to the Isolinear Scanner. This is a necessity, so the upgrade path is open to empires that conquer systems with the Card Listening Post. The problem is both of those scanners have scan range 4, so you actually have to spend 8000 construction (and some more energy) to gain no benefit in terms of scan range. One way to solve this would be to increase the scan range of the Isolinear Scanner to 5 and the Card Isolinear Scanner to 6 - it'd also make more sense in terms of cost vs scan range [the increase is too large for the cost difference currently] for the top-of-the-line scanners.

Fed Particle Fountain: don't have the RawMaterials bonus requirement, only Dilithium.

Aldean Planetary Shield (PercentPlanetaryShielding): no tech prereqs, but planetary shields do have prereqs (4). So you can actually build the APS before any PS.

Antican Hunting Paddocks, Ba'ku Metaphasic Spa, Mizarian Peace Corps, Nechani Shrine of Nechani, Tamarians Uzanis Monument: have energy cost zero, just checking it's intentional (as there are other similar structures that do have an energy cost).

The Bajoran Jalanda Forum costs 10000 and gives MoraleEmpireWide 1, and the Ba'ku Metaphasic Spa gives the same MoraleEmpireWide 1 plus PercentGrowthRate 50 for only 1000 and no energy cost. There are other such discrepancies.

Shouldn't the Dreman Dilithim Mine, Halkan Dilithium Cracking Station and Zahl Dilithium Cracking Station obsolete the Dilithium Refinery, like the Coridan Dilithium Cracking Station? (there are others)

Kes and Prytt Early Warning Scanner, Nezu Astrophysics Survey, Rakosan Surveillance System: they have a scan range (7/6), but they don't obsolete/upgrade to any scanners.

Orion Syndicate, Skrreean Geological Survey, Xepolite Free Trade Network: PercentRawMaterials bonus, but systems don't have RawMaterials bonus.

Suliban Organics Lab: no build cost, no energy cost.

Tellarite Engineering Union: costs are a bit on the low side? A 150% Industry bonus?

Teplan Working Party: PercentBioTechResearch bonus is supposed to be 1%?

Vorta Common Market: energy cost is supposed to be only 10?


Are the Rakosans supposed to be Backwards techwise?
Also, the Rakhosans are not dead yet...

HomeSystems.xml:

- <HomeSystem Civilization="RAKHOSANS">
- <StarSystem Name="Rakhosa">
<Inhabitants>RAKOSANS</Inhabitants>
- <Planets>
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="4" MaxNumberOfPlanets="5" />
<Planet Type="Terran" Size="Medium" />
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="2" MaxNumberOfPlanets="3" />

- <HomeSystem Civilization="RAKOSANS">
- <StarSystem Name="Rakosa">
<Inhabitants>RAKOSANS</Inhabitants>
- <Bonuses>
<Bonus Type="RawMaterials" />
</Bonuses>
- <Planets>
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="4" MaxNumberOfPlanets="4" />
<Planet Name="Rakosa" Type="Terran" Size="Medium" />
<Planet MinNumberOfPlanets="4" MaxNumberOfPlanets="6" />
</Planets>
</StarSystem>
</HomeSystem>
</HomeSystems>


30 Mar 2009, 15:40
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Six planets? That's not possible, they're set to always have 9. Come to think of it though, i've noticed other races that have had fewer planets than they *should* have done. This is a possible bug so i'll tell Mike about it. There's not much I can about the starting populations though; if they have 9 planets, then their population starts as a certain percentage of the system maximum, same as it does with smaller systems. But a percentage of a large system is bigger than the same percentage of a smaller system.

The colony numbers aren't down to me either. I haven't set them to have 55 population.

I wouldn't forget something like changing the research matrix. Honest... :mischief: Multifrequency beams was missing the "s" at the end of beams, and Diffusion Bonding was spelled "Diffucion Bonding". Fixed.

Romulan shipyard fixed.
Fleetyards can only be built in native systems so minor race shipyards don't *need* to be able to upgrade to fleetyards - an upgrade would never be possible because a minor race shipyard wouldn't be built in a native system.
Utopia Planitia can only be built in Sol, so the Kazon shipyard doesn't need to obsolete it - the Kazon shipyard can't be built in Sol. I'll remove the Utopia and all Fleetyard obsoletions from the special shipyards instead.

Suggested changes made to scanners. The scanners will be getting a new scan strength option in the future though so the Cardassians would have a bonus in this area anyways to separate them.

The Particle Fountain now has a Raw Materials requirement. Ideally, this structure would have variable output depending on what is present in systems - it wouldn't produce raw materials in systems that lack raw materials for instance. I'm in the middle of writing a PM to Mike about this, so we'll have to wait and see what his response is.

Aldean Planetary Shield now requires Planetary Shields.

These structures intentionally don't have energy requirements. They don't really need energy.

The Bajoran Jalanda Forum had a 10000 cost in BOTF so this was just copied over; remember the game hasn't been balanced yet. The Ba'Ku planet naturally provides Metaphasic radiation so not much would need to be built, other than accommodations for visitors, so that partly explains the discrepancy. Still, this is a blatant difference, so i'll fiddle the numbers a bit.

Yes, the Dilithium Refinery is now obsoleted by those structures.

The special scanners will have their stats changed when Mike adds the Scan Strength option to the editor. These special scanners will focus on Scan Strength instead of range, which is what the scanners of the empires are more dedicated to. This is why they don't have any obsoletion or upgrade paths.

The races indicated now have a Raw Materials bonus.

Organics Lab now has a 6250 build cost and 95 energy requirement.

Engineering Union build cost increased by 2000.

Teplan Working Party bonus is correct.

The Working Party is dedicated to curing a disease, but the Teplans have had no luck with finding a cure and were losing all hope.

Common Market Energy cost increased to 50.

The Rakosans are supposed to be Developed. Fixed. There's always one tiny little entry left somewhere though. I've officially wiped out the system of the people with the H in their name...

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30 Mar 2009, 19:26
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Matress_of_evil wrote:
There's not much I can about the starting populations though; if they have 9 planets, then their population starts as a certain percentage of the system maximum, same as it does with smaller systems. But a percentage of a large system is bigger than the same percentage of a smaller system.


Yes, I know, ~44.5% like the empire's homesystems. What I'm saying is that maybe you shouldn't have increased max pops. Last night there was this system with 665 max pop. And it doesn't include moons yet.

Quote:
The colony numbers aren't down to me either. I haven't set them to have 55 population.


Someone did, and I got the files from you... Work Capacity, colony ships? Fed colonies being better than everyone else's? Don't tell me you already forgot about this.

---

Excalbians: missing image.

Tellarites
Engineering Union description sounds more like a first contact message than a description of something your empire can build.


31 Mar 2009, 10:28
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The planetary population changes that I made were relatively tiny. If there are systems with gigantic populations, then players will just be lucky to find them. If I lower the populations again, we'll be stuck with the problem that most systems have populations that are too small. I can't do anything abouyt the moons because you can't go lower than 1 population per moon. I'll nudge Mike about adding in population density settings again. :P

Err...yes I did forget. :lol: I forgot the colony size was based on the work capacity. That really isn't logical. Colony ships should have a population size stat or something rather than a work capacity.

The Excalbians do have an image - remember you've never been able to download a full content update from me before.

I fixed the Engineering Union description a few days ago but i've not sent you an update in a few days so you haven't received it.

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31 Mar 2009, 12:23
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