Hi,

I suggest to change that stations (like outposts, starbases) are not obsoleted anymore, because I still want to build outposts and not just spacedocks whenever I want to increase my range. spacedocks take ages to build

That is an interesting idea. Would it be, or should we make it, cheaper
to build outpost in the place of stations?

The stations take rediculously long to build because of a number of reasons:

• Their build costs are excessive.
• The industrial output of the construction ships is set to pathetically low levels.
• I don't *think* the output of multiple constuction ships can be combined yet to boost construction rate.

The first two points are easily fixable, but the editor doesn't currently work so the fix will need to wait until Editor 3 is released. The third point - if it hasn't been done yet - can only be solved by Mike, as it is a programming issue.

The Outposts shouldn't as such be obsoleted though - I set it so that the Station system followed the system from BOTF with stations needing to be built and upgraded over time. If Starbases obsolete Outposts altogether, then something has gone wrong there and that is my fault.

Is there a quick fix to the station problem...when you build them the games crashes? I didnt know it there was a quick download to save and over write? moe? or mike?

Sorry mate, I don't know of a fix yet for the station crash bug. Mike posted earlier and said he's got an update coming in the next few days though. He also just updated the full version download to the May 20th version.

That'll probably make starbases all but useless... (or should I say, a bit more)
Ships are way more flexible and cost effective. Starbases are static, so you can always go around them to avoid them. Their science ability, you're better off with science vessels. The range extension capabilities, abnd scan ranges, they're really only useful if the bases are set in your borders - then again, you have colonies for that too, where you can build those top of the line scanners which are way better

Maybe stations should have a zone of control similar to units in Civilization games to make them more useful.

Would you need a Starbase to push your fleet deep into an opponent's space? Could you build a station faster than colonizing a system?

Other than a tatical advantage what other uses do the stations have?

MOE will know. I depend on him for this and some much more. If I recall though they also extend ship range. If you play on a ginormis map and want to move deep and as fast as you can into opponents space you might use the starbase. It would let you reach Cardassia Prime without taking and converting one system after another at very slow pace?

You might also want to put them next to hostile race for pretection, but if i remember they take a lot of resources?

Too much trouble to extend range, which you don't really need anyway, given the values for Speed/Range for late game ships... which I already mentioned. Of course, I'm a lunatic, and I'm not a BotF "veteran".
Anyway, they're static, they take a boatload of resources (and turns) to build, construction ships have to be escorted to the site, they'll be useless once you start taking systems around it, etc... and they have upkeep.

Stations in BOTF never served a single, unique purpose; they were essentially multi-taskers, and weren't necessarily the best at any of the tasks they could do. If you built a station:

• They increased your fuel range, just like shipyards do.
• They increased the repair rate of damaged ships. (I can't actually remember if shipyards increased the repair rate in BOTF)
• They helped to aid your system defense, but they typically lacked any real strength if you had a decent fleet - or a cloaked ship. Usually you ended up needing a fleet to defend the stations.
• They increased your sensor range.

I believe that what is really needed for the stations is a massive increase in their shield and hull strength, although not necessarily their weapons. Stations, especially Starbases, should be able to take a tremendous amount of punishment and would need to be worn down rather than simply eliminated in the initial stages of a battle. The huge investment that they represent should actually mean something.

Now of course, as i've mentioned in multiple recent posts, the build costs for the stations are currently sey way too high, so I will be changing this as soon as I get my hands on the new editor. What I would like to know though is if people agree with me, or whether they think Stations need other changes.

Well, my thoughts to it:

When I compare a station to a starship:
station:
- no engine
- cant evade enemy fire and it nearly always hit
- cant evade enemy fleets so no retreat
- need much time to build
- need a huge amount of ressources

+ for the fact, that it got no engines, this energy is saved and put into the shields, so you must have a massive defense boost
+ for the facts, that you cant evade enemy fire, you need a weapon range advantage. So a starbase will maybe destroy enemy ships before they even can get in range for fire
+ for the fact, that you dont need to put ship-like construction limitations for the interior, you can nearly build everything into a starbase

So for the balance:
--> Let the costs be high for starbases, let the costs be 'low' for outposts.
--> Starbases should be able to let ships dock so that they can repair themselves. If you place a starbase into deep space or into a system it makes no diffrence for the ships that are docking. --> They can get repaired and re-equipped there.
--> Starbases should, like suggested have a huge amount of defense capabilities. They also might have something like 'point blank defense' against torpedos
--> Starbases should be a direct support for your vessels around there. Advanced command capabilities will lead into a higher damage control of your ships or a bonus like that. Let us be creative.
--> The weapons of a Starbase should be something dependent on the role it should do. When I remember DS9, it was a battle station able to take out whole fleets. There is the diffrence between a starbase and a battle-station.
(Maybe we could add this extra-station? I like to see battle-stations for defending systems)
--> Outposts have the order to support you fleet, scan the region, re-fuel them and let them eventually repair them
--> Starbases are able to build ships in top of that. They can let more ships dock on it and give a command boost)
--> Battle-Stations are not able to build ships and have nearly no science ability. But they are able to let a few ships dock at it (like an outpost) but are, when compared to the starbase, a better choice for defending systems or places.

I also think, that these stations should have its own repair-rate and its own 'officer rank'. I was really bothered in botf 1 that my starbases were destroyed in one go and werent able to gain experience.

Thats it for now.

Doesn't make any sense to increase their shields and hull and decrease their cost... They should cost a lot more than a ship, any ship.

Make them buildable in systems only (yeah, construction ships have no use). They're the first line of defense for those systems. They should have Initiative in combat (enemy fleets are coming out of Warp), so they fire first (and the casualties they cause are calculated first). They should provide a Combat Morale bonus to defending fleets, and maybe increase the max# and/or efectiveness of Orbital Batteries in the system. Scanners, anti-Cloak, etc, as now. They could also give bonuses to trade (either trade income or # of trade routes).
That should make them worth a somewhat high cost.

Question:
This description fits a battlestation. So, looking on that, is a battlestation and a starbase the same, or might there be two kinds of stations.

A starbase with huge support capabilities and a battlestation for defending front-systems, or will a starbase be the same as a battlestation?
I had a look into "Fleetops" and there is a mod avaible, that will allow you to build either a starbase or a battlestation.

- That starbase can have construction abilities, can repair ships, will give you an advanced sensor range for long range scans and so on...

- ... and a battlestation that is avaible to engage a ECM for a higher missing-chance for enemy weapons, a better coordination of your fleet, anti-cloak abilities -->
(it would be a primary ability, because this feature is cruical for defending --> Where is the bonus of 'first strike' when you cant detect enemy ships? Maybe there will be a link to scrambling stations)
--> and of course a high shield and hull strength combined with heavy firepower.

For the orbital batteries, there was a suggestion from another member (forgot where, I only have it in mind now, that I write these lines) that there could be a coordination station for orbital batteries that will allow you to control these batteries.

So, something like this:

(okay, it looks more like a spacedock, but you might replace these docking rings with battle-components and then you got it )

Until now, I think we have only outposts and starbases and the only thing that changes is the overall strength. If we could at least build two kinds of stations into the systems, we might get a little more playroom in strategic planning. Example:

You build a starbase at the second line system and a Deep-Space-Battlestation at your front-system. The front system it there for stopping enemy fleets (I take the suggestion from the "range of influence") so that they cant rund deeper into your terretory without making a fight --> they must fight against your frontline-system in order to come across and Starbases, that are able to repair, refit and rebuild your ships in order to make a very good support station.

BUT: This idea got a few mistakes:
For example: How to build up a frontline without holes? Your systems might be spread so wide, that you never can establish such a front-line.
Also: The larger your expansion grows, the longer is your line and you might not be able to support it.
Here my idea stops and I dont find a conclusion. But with ONLY starbases, we have the same problem, I think. The enemy can just avoid your heavy defendet systems and will overrun your "not-so-good" defendet systems. After a time, you will bleed out of ressources and the enemy migh get more.

Sure, this example is VERY statis and thought in one-way, but the issue, to establish a front line is'nt solved. Is there even an issue? Thoughts? Ideas? Bombs?

I do recall that someone had suggested that Starbases be harder
to kill. Mike did not want to change the way they behave
significantly from the original game. It may be how he wants the
game play to work.

Is there a reference?

PM Mike.

Thats the same station in the movie right?

Well, I searched for something that was a federation battlestation like in Starfleet Command the "Unity one". I remember that I saw a Cube like station with 4 or 6 perimeters around that was told to be a battlestation, so I searched for something that was similar to it. And yes, I think this is the one out of the movie.

Maybe we should link the shipyards with starbases and battlestations not?
So you can build only ships when you have a starbase around. A battlestation cant support shipbuilding, but will deal a massive system defence on the other hand... Hmm, would change the balance a bit.

This the station from the new film. It looks bigger.

Yep its bigger.

Even the Enterprise itself is a little bit bigger.

There is no way the "original" Enterprise could be bigger than the Sovereign Enterprise. It would be totally illogical, the design requirements in TOS era would be enormous, and it completely destroys the later canon of where Scotty says how enormous the Excelsior was (Which is a smaller ship the the Sovereign). Ok, that would effectively be in a different timeline, but I seriously doubt the timeline would have been changed to the point where all of the design lineages of the ships would have changed, rendering the Excelsior non-existant in this new timeline.

Regarding the station, I don't think it is the same as the one from the film. For a start, as Kenneth pointed out, the station from the film is larger - about three times larger by my reconning. For instance, look at the saucers - the station in the film has three rows of windows, wheras the one in the image has only one. In fact, you can even see little tables in the saucers on the image, showing it is a relatively small station.

Whilst you can't see the station in its entirety, you can't see any evidence of a docking "hole" in the film station either. This hole would also be far too small for most ships to enter in the image, based on the size of the windows and tables that you can see.

The connecting pylons between the saucers and station are also different. In the image, they are a large chunk on top of the station, with a bulge about halfway along that narrows towards the saucer. The station in the film has a long, straight pylon that physically joins with the main hull of the station, rather than being on top. The film station also doesn't seem to use the saucers for docking purposes either - there is no evidence of docking ports or landing bays on these saucers, unlike the saucers of the image one that clearly do have these features.

The saucers are also connected to a ring that surrounds the station. No such ring is present in the film image.

Incidentally, the scene seems to have been flipped at some point. I just watched the trailers for the film and the station is clearly shown on the left instead of the right. I might be wrong, but I don't remember seeing the station in the film twice. Odd.

The Original Enterprise from TOS was smaller. But with the new Star Trek Movie we are in a different Timeline. Many things have changed there. Why not the size of the Enterprise. They even changed the engine room to a place that looks like a power plant.

Maybe you should have a look at this posting from Trekweb. http://trekmovie.com/2009/06/09/new-details-on-star-trek-vfx-ship-sizes-revealed/

I like the comments people posted in that article. There's one that is a possible answer:



And why would Trek be using imperial measurements anyways?

In TNG the observation room had a model of all the ships and "D" is huge next to the origional enterprise.

What is the crew size for the origional enterprise? I cant remember.

I believe it's around 400. According to Memory Alpha though:

No information is available on the crew compliment of the Constitution Refit/Enterprise-A, which was launched in 2286.