It would be great if there was a way to implement "rebellions". eg. You are playing as Federation, suddenly you get a report that you lost contact with some of your colonies. You send a ship to investigate and you are attacked by your own ships that you have dicomissioned. You win or lose that battle and the next thing you know there is a report that some of your colonies have left the Federation and formed a new group called "The Maquis", they will either attack you or some other empire, if they attack some other empire the relationship with that empire will suffer.

The Federaton would have "The Maquis", Romulans - "The Reman Rebellion", Dominion - "Renagade Jem'Hadar", Klingons - One of the conqured species, or the Duras sisters, Cardassians - "?"....

Hope you get my meaning.

Whilst it isn't exactly identical to what you suggest...



Once we know precisely how the randoms will work and how to to actually implement them, we can then start experimenting with spicing them up a bit like you suggest. You never know, it just might be possible to include all of your suggestions.

LOL, I've actually read those but it probably slipped from my eye.
Nice to hear it, but it would really be cool if they commited some hostile acts against someone.
Perhaps it could be both, two different events, hostile and peacefull groups.

If they're independent, then the AI will control them. So it's anyone's guess how they will respond to diplomacy...or a full spread of plasma torpedoes.

I suppose if the system has access to Dilithium, they should be able to build their own fleets. Just imagine going up against a fleet of your own ships...

Implementing rebellions that end in independence for a colony would require dynamically creating new empires during the game, which (among many other things) means coming up with meaningful names for those civilizations. Then there's more complicated issues to consider, like differences in diplomacy mechanics based on whether or not an empire is an offchute from your own, and what (if any) ships the colony will take with them. It's certainly possible to come up with a workable set of rules for such a feature, but it's a hard sell considering that the implementation cost likely outweighs the gameplay value.

In the original BOTF, the rebellion was the cause of the collapse of morale in below average and a colony could be lost with this kind of picture:

So it is harder than just reestablishing the minor race under the AI?

In fact, if we want to regain lost planet, we must colonize it.

If the rebelling planet is inhabited by a minor race, then the problem is trivial. It's basically just a matter of dissolving the membership agreement. Getting the planet back just requires going through the same diplomatic process as before (earn/buy their trust, send membership proposal). The complications arise if we allow rebellions from native systems.

Actually, it's I lied--it's only trivial if a member minor race inhabits a single planet (or all of the minor race's planets rebel). If a member minor race has more than one planet and only one of them rebels, then things get more complicated. We can make things a lot easier if we put some restrictions on the mechanics:

• If a single member planet rebels, the original minor civilization is restored, but it controls only the system that rebelled.
• The "parent" empire retains the other systems gained through the membership treaty, unless those systems rebel also (in which case they rejoin the reestablished minor civilization).

These rules are workable. Having non-native member planets rebel and fork off into new, separate civilizations would introduce all kinds of complications that really aren't worth the cost of a little added realism. The same goes for native colonies--they have to either stay with you or join another empire. Forking off into a new civilization is not a scenario I'm willing to support at this point.

But could they join a minor race or other empire, would you be willing to do that?

AK 47
Make it simple - make it work.

Yep, and though joining a minor civilization isn't supported, so they could only join another empire.

Actually for me rebellion in old botf (klingon rebelled governors) was a cool thing, i don't know from programming aspect but i would like to see that feature in the game. I mean rebellion of native systems. I can create few emblems for rebels and for naming there is an easy solution, if tau prime system is rebelled the new civilization should be called tau prime humans, tau prime klingons etc.

Yeah, but those names become dubious if the spinoff civilization starts conquering other civilizations. Suddenly the "Humans of Proxima Centauri" control not just Proxima Centauri, but Gamma Eridanis, Betelgeuse, and Qo'nos. Anyway, spinoff civilization names are among the simplest in a whole slew of other complications. And it's not so much the programming aspect that raises concerns, but the impact on gameplay and how sensible/intuitive the game mechanics are to the player.

In fact, I tested this rebellion when i added a "Forced Labor Farm" the structure had "-1 Morale".

I don't know you are in charge though as i said i liked it in old botf (klingon governors) and would like to see it supremacy little bit expanded.

How did it work in BotF? Did they break off as an unclaimed neutral system that you could re-colonize?

Botf: After rebellion player looses control over the system and territory influence, rebelled system acts as independent world though it can't enter in diplomatic relationships if player wants to take back the system only solution is conquer so you can invade or bomb the system but you can't re-colonize it.

The way i see this feature possibly in supremacy is the same way with exception that rebelled system becomes minor race which can enter diplomatic relationships (trade agreements, affiliation, membership etc.) though they are restricted like other secondary or tertiary races, low expansion ratio maybe one or two systems, few ships which can be supported by their resources. I'm not fan of big rebellions which involve 10, 15 or more systems cause this will bring chaos in the game and it's not after all local rebellion it's a civil war. Though if player has 3,4,5 or rebelled system they should act independently without joining in same goal or to form new big empire, they should independently seek they freedom. I know this is not most realistic but after all we are creating the game not the simulation.

I propose an add to these texts:

Splinter colonies
A system breaks away from your Empire. You can regain control by either subjugating it or through diplomacy. Other Empires can also gain control of it in the same way, so you'll have to establish Diplomatic relations quickly!
The Planetary System of _____ has declared independence from the Federation. All system-related assets have been frozen. The new government has not committed any acts of aggression and is allowing a peaceful evacuation of all Star Fleet personnel and equipment, and Federation citizens. The administrator of the colony passed in court-martial.
The great Klingon Warlord has taken control of the _____ system and has executed the predecessor who ruled this system, and has proclaimed the system as his own. Whilst he was a great Klingon warrior, such an act is threatening to tear the Empire apart, and he is no longer welcome in the Empire. This is as much a failure of the Empire, as it is for Klingon Intelligence. Loyalty throughout the Empire is at a record low.
R* (in BOTF1, the expression was: The Commandant has been imprisoned) (Suggestion: The Sub-Commander has been imprisoned)
C* (in BOTF1, the expression was: The Prefect fled)
A Vorta Commander was newly placed at the head of the _____ system. His predecessor was defective. He killed his advisors and mortally wounded his Founder overlord, taking command of the system and the Jem'Hadar stationed there. But do not worry; we just learned that the Vorta activated his implant and committed suicide.

If a joined or subjugated minor breaks free from your empire, how will their (new) tech level be handled? Will they retain the empire's tech, or will they revert back to their original (before joining/being subjugated)?
The former makes this a dangerous thing (though they'll still only be able to build their own ships again - with the new infrastructure though).
The latter means they lose a bunch of research while being part of an empire, and getting them back shouldn't be too hard.

On a side note, if you subjugate a system from another empire, and then that empire tries to conquer it back, won't the population (which is from that empire's race) be fighting their own kind?

Subjugated systems wouldn't have much knowledge of the subjugating empire's technology--they'd simply be told what to build (i.e. given replicator patterns). If they rebel, I see no reason why they should gain any of their oppressors' technology.

The issue is less cut-and-dry for member races. As it stands, their tech levels would return to what they were prior to the membership agreement. However, if their tech levels are, say, Level 6, and one of their systems has Level 9 facilities, then they would be able to build additional Level 9 facilities in that system (as long as any exist). You can always build additional instances of facilities that already exist in a system.

The only way I can see to get around this problem is to have them auto-scrap tech they shouldn't have. But can this be programmed?

"Problem"? That rule is not a "problem"; it's by design and exists for good reason. Scrapping every food facility in a colony because the tech requirements are no longer met is not an acceptable option. Especially if all the production facilities were also scrapped; your population would starve itself half to death before you could build enough food facilities to sustain it. Preventing further structures from being built is not acceptable either.

Well, they'll be researching tech for the empire. At the empire's tech levels. Surely they would need to share knowledge. And they could probably reverse-engineer a lot of stuff.



Instead of scrapping the farms, they could be converted to Primitive Farms.

Well, the realistic solution is somewhere in between. The Bajorans didn't have the Cardassian tech level after the occupation, but their technology was influenced by Cardassian technology (phaser rifles were similar, the ships were similar in some ways....). Perhaps the game should compute the difference of tech levels and then take half of the difference and add it to the tech level of the subjugated race after they free themselves.

I have a better question, what if less developed race managed to conquer more developed race (Kazon and the Trabe)



Agreed, couldn't they just be converted to the most advanced structure that the race has.

Yeah, but it's really an all-or-nothing proposition. Either they get all of your tech or go back to where they started. Tracking the research contributed at individual systems is just too much additional work for very little payoff. There are also issues with the fact that minor races may inhabit multiple systems. If you subjugate one of them, the minor race's government will still exist and will be doing its own research at the race's other systems. Same goes for the subjugated systems of other empires.

Not gonna happen. I'm firmly attached to the current rules regarding externally-constructed facilities.

Yeah, I was really just pointing out how minors are a can of worms when implemented like majors.

Yes, I am painfully aware of this. The notion of expanding minors has the potential to explode into a clusterfsck of issues. Minors may ultimately get scaled back to how they were in BotF (confined to one system).

Yup.

A couple of alternatives, which can be used together or seperately:

1) Once membered/subjugated, minors can't break away from the empire. Period.

2) Each minor has a set tech level (from the beginning). They wouldn't research at all, so they can't go up in tech level.
An empire would only be able to member a minor of an equal or lower tech level (empire's average most likely).
A subjugated minor of higher tech level would not be able to build anything of a tech level higher than the empire's.


It's not perfect, but it could mitigate some of the problems. The system management AI for minors would have to take some things into consideration, like not assigning pop to research, not building labs, only building minimal facilities.
With the era based tech matrix, tech levels shouldn't be hard to sort; with a techtree though, it could be not so easy.

Minor races are the most important thing in the game. They are fundament of Botf 2 project. Non expanding and crippled minors would be evidence that we did nothing in last six years. Actually I don't see any problems about their research and expansion. We can analyze how it was done in old botf and make it better. I think that Mike knows that minors in Botf had evolution levels (10),membered and conquered minors in Botf [b]continued with their own development regardless to their owners. More advanced minors had faster EL's and backward slower.

Issues:

1. Independent minor- that is not problem
2. Membered or conquered minor by player- player builds stuctures according to his empire's tech
3. Minor race break off from player- easy, minor race hidden evolution level is back in the game, minor keeps all advanced buildnigs but further build would be equal to minor's evolution level. Note: If minor's system has automated farm type 6 in that system minor builds automated farm type 6 but if minor establishes new colony all buildings will be built according it's evolution level, exp. automated farm type 4. Is it realistic? Who cares? It's a game.

4. Backward empire conquers Advanced empire- actually this is going to be rare situation but when it happens difference in tech level woud be small, Example: Breen conquers S'ona (they are almost same in tech).

Let's say Chalnoth (primitive) conquers Bajorans (developed), this can be handeled in same way as I described in point 3 only vice versa.



It's not all about logic , it's about feel and what players want, they want star trek universe full of different civilizations,exploring, expanding, fighting wars... they want trek feel, if everything is about logic then cinemas should be empty and Hollywood bankrupted long time ago but all we know that it's not case.



and you had problem 20 mil pop in the colony ship but such idea is workable for you?


How it was done in Botf: