I think your frame of mind on this game is the same as mine. My version will be unlike anyone elses, it will start earlier, take longer and generally be more boring, (at least to other people.)

I like you guys ideas of starting very early and slow.. to an extent. I'm kinda on the fence with this one, i guess it would depend on how long it would take to make it from prewarp to barely/fully warp.

I think that in the standard game you won't have thse pre-warp vessels. Because you can't expand and lots of people get irritated by that, to play the first 50 turns with these things. So i guess you have to mod this in, or ask Gavin for support, though i'm quite sure he doesn't want this.

I *am* a micro-manager. I wouldn't get bored.

I *do* get your point: most people are not as anal as I am. (Some are far more so... But that's not part of the point.) And since the average BotF player likely wouldn't want to spend the first 50 to 100 turns alone in the their home system, I agree with iwulff: the standard game should have a minimum speed of 1.

There might be a simple answer, though. Somewhere on this thread (or was it another?) someone suggested there should be an option for changing (or perhaps it was loading from a file) ship statistics. He/she suggested that before a game was begun the user could quickly modify various ship stats: build & maintenance cost, manufacture speed, weapons damage, etc. If this can be done, why not also travel speed? And, as he/she suggested, in a multi-player game, the host's settings are the rules.

*If* gturfrey would be so kind as to allow the possibility to at least mod in ships with a speed less then unity, that would be great. Mind you, if this would be a pain to implement or even if he just didn't like it, I'd be far from broken hearted. I'm really just happy BotF2 is happening! And truly elated the people making it are so kind as to listen!!

I don't know whether it would be useful, but starfleet command 2 mentions a design lineage for the Romulans (Somewhere in the manual) - They basically had 3 eras of ship design.

1) - Pre-warp - All ships were impulse/chemical engine capable, but warp physics were unknown. Low-powered Cloaking technology was already in wide use though.

2) - Warp-Acquired - The Romulans traded (Older) Cloaking technologies for warp-capable ships from the Klingons, during their oh-so-short alliance. This is why there is such a large similarity in (Older) Klingon and Romulan ships. (Because the ships were Klingon, or were based on Klingon designs)

3) - Warp-Knowledgable - By now, the Romulans understand and have expanded on the warp theories gotten from the Klingons. Their starships are now 'Decadent' in design (If I use ZDarby's terms)

I know this isn't canon, but it does use information drawn from hinted-at canon. It also make a lot of sense.

It could also help with the technology eras of the Klingons - eg.

1) Pre-warp capable - Ships have impulse/chemical engines. Journeys to other planets are possible.

2) Warp-capable - Ships are able to travel to nearby star systems, but are (Relatively) slow and poorly maneoverable.

3) Cloak capable - Technology gained from the Romulan trade incorporated into starship design. Starships are also faster by now, can travel further, and are more maneouverable.

4) Advanced Warp and Cloak theories - The Klingons have expanded on and improved the cloaking technologies that they got from the Romulans.
Ships are powerful, maneouverable, and fast.

Of course there are obvious problems with this - I have used 3 eras for the Romulans, The Klingons have four eras, and the Federation have 5 eras (Based on ZDarby's eras)

The Cardassians still have no eras, and neither do the Ferengi/Dominion (Or whoever the fifth race is gonna be, if there is one)

Also, as I said, they are non-canon, but are based on canon that is barely mentioned. (Will this be enough SonOfMogh? I know how important canon is to you, based on...other threads...) 8O I do believe canon is important, but there should be some amount of lee-way, especially if conflicts in canon arise (Like Enterprise)

I give you 6 out of 10 for canon this time...

Couple of things mate. First, the first ships will be warp capable. There's no point building a ship that can't even make it to the next sector, (I guess a minor with no goals of expansion could build impulse ships). So the first part is pretty much out of the window.

Second. In this game the Romulans & Klingons will develop cloaking. This will not be based only on any alliances or technology exchange, it will just be part of their tech progress. Otherwise the klingons would only be able to cloak every x amount of games.


On a side note there's been no canonical hint of an alliance between the romulans and klingons. In 1 original series episode kirk said "there using klingon designs", obviously referring to the battlecruisers. Whether they were stolen, gifted or just copied designs was never established. A lot of people mistakenly think the klingon bird of prey was in some way romulan, this is false and ENT has shown a much older version of the bop.

You obviously know far more than me, honourable SonOfMogh. I could have sworn there was much more canon on the issue than that, but it must be my mistake, seeing as how faithful you seem to be with canon.

I used the pre-warp era as an example. Yet again, my rushing to type things out is showing, since I thought that I mentioned that I did not want pre-warp ships in the game. The example was taken directly from Starfleet Command 2, It didn't occur to me that it might be useful for me to edit the eras to make them more BOTF friendly.

Obviously this shows again, since as you said, the Klingons would need to ally themselves with the Romulans, before they could get to any significant tech level.

This is my editied version then, containing the pointers you gave about canon, and to make it more bOTF friendly. I also found some info on some technical specs of the races ships: -

1) - Warp-Discovered - The first Romulan starships were refitted impulse ships, that were never designed for exploration between the stars. This accounts for the (slightly) weaker hulls of Romulan ships, since the ships were based on older spaceframes. Some ships are cloak capable.

2) - Warp-Knowledgable - By now, the Romulans more fully understand and have expanded upon their warp theories. Some experimental Romulan starships are equipped with qauntuum singularity-powered warp cores, which are faster and more efficient than simple matter/antimatter reactors. All new ships by now have specially designed spaceframes, allowing travel to other systems, without their commanders having to worry about whether their ships can take the stress of warp speeds. Most ships by now are also cloak capable, due to new technologies that increase the power availability of starships. Weapons are also more deadly, while shields recharge at higher rates.

3) - Warp-Advanced - The Romulans exclusively use quantuum-singularity-powered warp cores in all their starships. This allows the Romulan fleet to travel faster and further than ever before. All ships are equipped with advanced cloaking devices, which disguise the ship, as well as it's sensor readings, making them virtually indistinguishable from background 'noise'. High-powered sensors may still detect the ship, however. Shields can take major damage, before collapse, and are easily able to repair themselves.

These will probably need more tweaking. What does everyone else think?

I have also done the Klingons: -

1) Warp-capable - Ships are able to travel to nearby star systems, but are (Relatively) slow and poorly maneoverable. Ships are large and bulky, while few weapons will have their power requirements met at warp.

2) Cloak capable - Starships are faster by now, can travel further, and are more maneouverable. Some classes of ship are also equipped with the newly-created cloaking device, allowing ships to launch suprise attacks on their enemies. Weapons are also more efficient and deadly.

3) Advanced Warp and Cloak theories - Klingon ships are powerful, maneouverable, and fast. Cloaking devices are able to mask the sensor readings of the ship itself as well, making the ship almost indestinguishable from background 'noise' - however, they may be detected by extremely high-powered sensors. Starships are equipped with numerous powerful weapons, and protected by advanced shielding systems.

Well? What does everyone think? Yay or nay?

Sorry mate, I'm probably just being really stupid here, but what's this actually about?

If you're talking about categorising the varying levels of technology it will be very simple. Races will start with weak, slow and short range ships, they'll then progress to strong, fast, long range ships. That's all there is to it as far as I'm aware.

The Federation will have the NX class, but it will be superceded by the Constitution, and at that point NX classes will play a lesser role and will eventually be retired. It's up to the player though if this happens when the constitution is launched, or wait until the excelsior is launched for example.

I have already made a start with the tech tree, and have collected loads of information. The problem that we first had, was the fact that we concentrated to much on ships, and less on buildings and technologies. I will first finish the Federation tech tree then go on with others, which sometimes need a bit tweaking.[/list]

I was on about technology in general, but with a focus on the ships. I thought that it might be of use, if the races were going to have technological eras.

If the eras are going to be included, then they could be used instead of tech levels when you are 'designing' the layout of the game (Tech level, Galaxy size etc.) I included these as a possible explanation of the eras (More so for people who haven't played on BOTF/trek games before)

I know BOTF2 will be aimed specifically at veterans of the game like us, but obviously there will still be others who will want to play.

I just thought this might be useful as part of the 'tool-tips' option, that's all.
(If tool-tips are going to be included)

Of course there is a lot of waffle in what i've put, so it could easily be shortened down if neccesary.

I'm not gonna mention this again, unless you like the idea, coz at the mo, i seem to be annoying you, which is wholly not my intention

No your not annoying me, i just wanted to say what is planned and what i'm doing at the moment. I also want to talk about the era's which you had in mind. I think it is verynice, to have something on your screen like The Romulans have reached the Warpcapable era. Ofcourse the names need changing, but it has a certain ring to it. Don't know what other think about this, though.

Obviously races will be warp capable from the start, otherwise how will you move your colony ships to colonise anywhere?

Yes you will have warp rigth from the start.

i'm glad the whole idea of pre-warp ships was dropped. it would be a no go in multiplayer games.

hopefully theres a mod where you can tweak ship/tech tree to be quicker, apparently the galaxy maps are going to be bigger!!!! imagine traveling across the universe one sector at a time.

I guess that you could go quicker if you want, but why? THis game is supposes to last long, perhaps you can play a game with 20 others at the same time, is nice isn't it?

Since i'm not annoying you Iwulff, i'll say a bit more.

These posts are to throw around ideas, so I don't care if any of my ideas get altered in any way. It would just be cool if any of them are included - sort of my mark on the world

I agree my naming of the eras does need changing, but i'm a bit...bad with names. (As you probably guessed) Anyone have any ideas?

I do not want any pre-warp ships to be in the game. If anyone else does, then they can make mods of their own - I mean that is the point of this, isn't it?

Of course, if people vote against having such in-depth explanations, I don't mind it being dropped.

Perhaps, instead of having my ideas as tool-tips, there could be an in-game screen, stating that you have moved onto a new era of development -like the screens you get when you colonise a new system, but in the Civ 3 sense. (You see a pic a city developing, whenever you move onto the next age, eg. you start off with a village, but in the next age, there are a few more houses, and a church. Then, in the next age a lot more houses appear, the docks get developed, factories are built etc.)

Good or bad idea?

I see your point matress.

To be honest, in this game you'll constantly be moving forward. One turn you get a new type of farm, 30 turns later a new type of ship. The whole idea of 'eras' at least from a trek point of view is just to differenciate between the 'era' of kirk and the 'era' of say picard, however there are many in between.

In your response to the city pic thing, how about if somewhere on the screen there was a starfleet commbadge symbol. As you hit a certain tech level, (perhaps the launch of the most significant class ship of that era), the badge could change to the most appropriate design for the era. Just as a little reminder of where things are. It could get annoying if nothing on the interface changed, despite technology completely changing.

Thats a good idea, but would we have something like this for the other empires?

Problem with that is the klingons have had the same uniform etc for over 150 years! It would either have to be a small starfleet commbadge for all empires or nothing I guess. Unless there's another symbol to represent changing times.

That would be a great idea for the Federation!

Of course, as you said, what could be done for the other races?

Would it be possible for the interface to change in style (By interface, I mean the actual look of the screen, eg. the Starfleet 'buttons' around the edge of the map - the ones that can't be pressed, but makes the screen look like it is a console on board a ship)

For the Races, the colours of this interface could slowly change (But would this cause annoying slow-downs, while the computer redarws the screen (Sort of like in age of empires - my computer takes ages to update the graphics of the buildings when I move on to a new age - bearing in mind there are 15 ages! My computer is six years old though, so I doubt anyone else that has played it will have noticed)

The 'buttons' would also change over time. In Kirk's time, the ship was equipped with 'switches', while by the time of Picard, the ship's consoles were touch-screen.

The computer voice could also change: - In Kirks time, the computer only spoke on a few rare occaisions (Usually because of an upgrade, or some alien gaining control) However, by Picards' time, the computer was 'voice activated'. The voice also changed at least once, because the crew members found the voice (In the first series) was 'too human' so they mistrusted it (I got this information from furryconflict.com though, which I know totally makes fun of canon - so it might be best to ignore this last bit of info though - but their explanations of Treknology may be useful, however.)

Would it be possible to include the changing computer voices, or are the originals going to be used, since they did work quite well. (You would have to get someone to record their voice for the computers, if you do make new ones)

Anyway, this may be a bit much, but i'm all for the comm badge changing, if examples could be found for the other races.

are you guys on crack? have you any idea what this would entail? different badges for each era? sorry guys but this will never happen, it`s just to much.

I did think the entire interface changing would be a bit much. Didn't realise the badge thing would be such a big deal, but if so it's hardly a major concern.

No i'm not on crack - or anything else for that matter!

I have no idea what it takes to program a game - i'm just saying ideas. You're just gonna have to let me know when i go to far, that's all!

Please, stick with SonOfMogh's idea then, there should be something to give you an idea of where you are in the tech tree.

I just decided to put this up here as a list of possible Romulan ships in a possible tech progression.

Romulan ship progression:
Dretex (Colony I)
Bird of Prey I (ENT)
Support I
D7 Class (Destroyer I)
D'renet (Scout I)
Bird of Prey II (TOS)
D'retex (Troop I)
R'derex (Cruiser I)
D'ridren (Destroyer II)
Support II
Dretex (Colony II)
Science Ship (Scout II)
D'dredar (Heavy Cruiser I)
D'retex (Troop II)
R'derex (Cruiser II)
R'tan (Strike I)
D'deridex (Command I)
Valdore (Heavy Cruiser II)
R'tan (Strike II)
Scimitar (Command II)

I had no idea what the assorted support cruisers would be called, most of these are just the ships from the first game. Any suggestions/improvements/other Romulan ships would be helpful.

The Scimitar? As a Romulan ship? Nice!

This could cause a problem though, coz people might say that the Remans would have to be included in the game.

The Scimitar is definitely a command ship. It's a shame that the D'deridex doesn't get an update though, but if you have the Scimitar, then you would have to re-class the ships.

I like the fact that the Valdore is in there as well. I hope this list makes the release!

I don't know any other Romulan ship classes, off the top of my head. Perhaps the names for the support vessels could be 'invented'?

Jigalypuff and Dafedz are far suprior ship designers than the guys who fabricated the botf 1 ships. I personally think the slate should be wiped clean and let the guys do their thing.

I'd have the ENT bop and a slightly larger cruiser counterpart at the start of the game.
By TOS you'd have the classic bop and again possibly a larger vessel, (more powerful but much less numerous).
By the late TOS/Movies era there could be the initial warbird class, (designed from scratch), alongside a stronger bop.
I'd then have the bops replaced by those scout vessels you see in TNG and a pre-D'Deridex badass warbird, (possibly the type that destroyed the Ent-C).
Then have D'Deridex, progressing to Valdore, progressing to Scimitar as a ship which requires a horrendous amount of materials to build, (so you'd only really build one or two).

I don't personally see a need to have a ship classed as a strike cruiser, it's such a fanboyish title and on screen evidence shows large capital ships are best for planetary bombardment.

I don't know if it helps, SonOfMogh, but I heard <somewhere> that the Federation class the D'deridex as a 'B-type' Warbird - which means that there was another Romulan 'Warbird'...it's just that everyone now associates the name with the D'deridex, thanks to TNG. (Actually, it may have been TNG that I got this from)

I agree with what you say about the Strike Cruiser, though. Why would the Federation have one? They wouldn't! Perhaps they would have one to take out enemy stations, (Only as a last resort, eg. during the Dominion war) but not as Planetary Bombardment Cruiser!

The Nebula Class was an offshoot of the Galaxy Class development project. It was designed to be a smaller, cheaper, more configurable test-bed for the Galaxy Class. They proved so configurable, however, (Thanks to the mission 'pods') that they were used for exploration and escort, alongside the Galaxy Class.

The klingons would definitely have one, and the Cardassians might have had one as well, but they would use them as a last resort - they wouldn't risk killing any potential slaves and destroying the resources of any alien planet.

The Romulans would more than likely use sabotage, (Eg. destroy the local Government/Military facilities) to capture an enemy planet, than to bombard it - it would be a waste of plasma torpedoes. Why destroy a planet, when the planet and it's inhabitants, could be of use to Romulus?

Of course, they woulf just as likely get another race to do it for them, and then when destroy/capture both races, once they have worn each other down...

And God knows what is happening with the Ferengi!

All I'll say is when the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar decided to bombard the Founders homeworld, they built a 20 strong fleet of D'Deridex and Keldon classes.

Both are capital/command type ships, yet they were deemed most suitable for sheer bombardment.


Regarding Warbirds, presumably then the Valdore type is a C-Type Warbird!

Then could the Scimitar be the D-type Warbird? Or should we call it something completely different?

Actually, come to think of it, should the Scimitar be a one-off ship? It was designed and built by the Remans, using Romulan technology - it was not built by the Romulans. That is why it is just so...woah!

Could you honestly imgine a fleet of Scimitars? You only need one to take out the crew of the entire enemy fleet (Of course, in the game, it would be hard to reflect this, other than by making it ultra-powerful. It was powerful in Nemesis, but only coz it's cloaking tech was soo good, Shinzon was quite a good tactician, and its' weapons were pointing in every possible direction.

On top of this, it had 'secondary shielding' (Which is something that i'm suprised isn't a standard technology on all Federation ships) 8O
So you would need speed, power and accuracy to take out the Scimitar.

Talk about a cool ship...

Just to add another progression

Possible Klingon Ship Progression:
Colony I
Support Vessel I
B'rel (ENT)
Goroth Cruiser
D5
Troop Transport I
Raptor
Battlecruiser
Scout
D7
Colony II
K't'inga
B'rel (ST6)
Support Vessel II
Boreth
K'mpec
Troop Transport II
K'Vort
Vor'cha
Negh'Var

Once again, any suggestions/improvements/other Klingon ships would be helpful. I know Jig and Dafedz will probably make some more, but this is just a list of the canon Klingon ships (I think they're all canon).