Hello to all!

I recently downloaded the alpha 20090520.
As far as I can see, it looks pretty cool so far! Great work!

However, I came up with one or two suggestions:

a) Every player-race starts with a Deuterium source in their home system except the dominion.
I think the nebula itself should give them a deuterium source too.


*DAMN - THREAD MONSTER ATE MY POST *

b) I would propose to alter the tech prerequisites for ships and "population - job - buildings".
Right now, you ARE able to focus your research on a specific field BUT acutally, you MUST research all fields equally well in order to get bigger ships and better research labs / spy centers.

My proposal:
Farms - BIOTECH only
Factories - CONSTRUCTION only
Power plants - ENERGY only
Labs - COMPUTER only
Intelligence - COMPUTER only (?)

Bigger Ships (aka new ship types) - CONSTRUCTION only
BUT:
All ships benefit from your tech level in WEAPON, ENERGY & PROPULSION the moment it is finally build.

I don't know how the mechanic is right now, but I would think about,
the TECH LEVEL giving a "Base-Value" and the Ship Type giving a "Multiplier".
e.g. A scout ship type has "Base-Propulsion" x 2, but "Base-Weapon" x 1/2 (or something).
The more advanced ship types would then just have "better Multipliers"


Thanks for reading! I hope this project is still active...

Hey DracoDruid, welcome to the forums!

Nebulas are already planned to be a source of fuel - for ships on extended range missions, or those close to being stranded. If a ship goes out of range, it will start to use up its available fuel reserves. When its' tanks are empty, it will become stranded. Nebulas can provide fuel for ships that are outside of range, allowing them to go even further than normal, or or giving them the fuel they need to return to safety. Stranded ships can also be towed back by other ships. These features aren't included in the game yet though.

Oceanic planets can also produce Deuterium fuel, although in smaller amounts than Gas Giants. The Empires can build Aquatic Deuterium plants to use Oceanic planets as a fuel source.

...

The changes you suggest to the prerequisites are unlikely to be implemented. We've put a massive amount of thought into the game, and having multiple tech requirements per structure is logical. For example, researching Biotechnology may produce new crops or pest controls, but it wouldn't provide you with new farming equipment and faster or cheaper methods of sowing, growing, tending, harvesting, sorting, or refining crops. You need advances in other areas for that. And that's precisely why buildings have multiple tech prerequisites.

We've created a database with information on the game - structures, ships, minor races, etc etc Here if you want to check it out.

Thanks for the feedback, and if you have any further comments or idea please let us know.

Hmm... that's sad - actually.

I tried to play a race without inventing weapons tech.
A peaceful explorer so to speak.

But I was never able to build better labs, intel or ships.

I really think that's kinda broken and should be changed.

Yep, it doesn't make much sense (if any at all), but it's intended as a way to "force" you to research all fields in order to progress through the various BT "eras".

Oh man...

Will I be at least able to mod that myself?

I scanned through the files.
The buildings, ships and prerequisites aren't in any XML file, aren't they?

Yes you can mod it, and yes they are in XML files.

You're looking for the TechObjectDatabase.xml file in the Supremacy/Resources/Data folder.

TechObjectDatabase is the file for modding the stats of game objects - build costs, energy costs, maintenance costs - and research prerequisites, amongst others.

This is what the entry for the Type 1 Automated Farm looks like:



I've hilighted a section in red. If you delete this section, you'll remove the non-Biotech prerequisites for this building. Note that the Biotech requirement has been left as-is though. Just do the same thing for all of the other Empire Farm structures in the game to get the result you want.

Remember to make a backup of the file before you commence your edits!

If you want to change the description of an object, or, if the object is a ship, the name of its' weapons, then TextDatabase.xml is the file you want. It's also located in the Data folder.

Also note that if you mod these files, the auto-updater will incorrectly identify that your game is "out of date" and will attempt to download the original copies of the files - deleting your mods. When you load the game, cancel any update that appears. You can permanently disable the update function in the Updater tab of the Options menu. We will post when we release the next game update so you don't need to worry about missing out on legitimate updates as long as you continue to visit the forums regularly. Please note that future updates will unfortunately also remove this modification, but you'll be able to re-add it at a later date.

Hope that helps.

GREAT!

I just must have missed that.

And thanks for the hint about the auto-update, that would have got me for sure.

About XML, I am pretty fond(?) about XML since Civilization IV.
Modded several things there myself.

So once more: Thank you very much!

Something must be done about mods.
Maybe create a seperate folder for modded files, and have an option at the game customization screen to play with a (selectable) mod.

Ok, got another one:

What do I have to change, that I don't have to UPGRADE all levels one after the other?
example:

I have Farms level 3, but colony still has Farms level 1.

Since I already have researched level 3, I don't need to upgrade to level 2 first, because I can already do better!

Hope you know what I mean.


BTW: I think this really should be standard.
All new colonies already start with momentary best level.
Why must I then upgrade all levels between?

Because that's how the game works You must go through all the levels in between, because that's how the object database is set up. You can't change that.
I'm really hoping the whole upgrading system in this game is changed.

Actually, i've had an idea about implementing this. I'm going to have to test it first. Give me a few minutes.

*Edit - HA! Done it! I've figured out how to upgrade buildings without having to go through each individual upgrade stage!



To do it, you need to set each incarnation of the facility to have an upgrade option of each of the other, later facilities in its' class. So, for example, a Type 1 Automated Farm currently has an upgrade to Type 2 Automated Farm (Plus the equivalent building for each of the other Empires).

Add to this list an upgrade to the Type 3 Automated Farm, the Type 4 Automated Farm, and so on (Plus the equivalent buildings for each of the other Empires).

Then, if you have a Type 1 building but can build Type 3's for instance, the only upgrade that will show is the Type 3 Upgrade, as demonstrated in my image above.

Note 1:
The building entries for the other Empires are there so if a foreign power invades a system, they will be able to upgrade the Facilities in the system to their own tech. Since invasions aren't possible yet though, it isn't necessary for you to include the upgrades for this mod.

Note 2:
I'm not sure how this change will affect the obsoletion system. Some playtesting will be required on this. If problems result, then you'll have to expand the obsoletion list for every facility as well and not just the upgrade list.

Lol, we're trying to figure out how to do this in BotF1... no luck yet

You do understand that this does not "work", though, as you'll only pay the cost of the last upgrade, right?

I will be damned!

I tried exactly the same thing, but it didn't work.
Maybe I had to start a new game instead of loading an old one, though...

But you might need to take another look at the prerequisite/requirement tags.

If say, level 3 farms still require level 2 farms, wouldn't that interfere with the upgrade tags?


@ Iceman:
SO? Where is the problem?

Yeah, you need to start new game reach time you modify something.

Yes, the prerequisite tags etc will require some jiggling around. I'm not even sure if the game has an "and" or an "or" system for prerequisites. I simply did this as a very quick check to see if it was possible. I didn't look any deeper. It'll require some playtesting to see whether the system works or not.

You also need to be aware that this change, if it works, will massively increase the size of the .xml file. This may have a negative impact on game performance.

As for .Iceman's comment, again, i'll have to check that, but if he's right Draco, then this "fix" does NOT work. You'll be upgrading your buildings in theory, but in practice the newly-upgraded level 9's will act as newly-upgraded level 2's (Or whatever comes one stage after the original building you upgraded from)

Well, you could have actually tested it in the game before saying it is possible - I mean test if it works, not if it looks well in the game.


@DracoDruid



The problem is, you don't pay all the costs in between, which is a kind of a cheat. It could also prove to be an exploit, if the AI wouldn't be able to do the same. Notice that you don't pay BOTH the credits cost AND the time "cost"; while this could be seen as an advantage to keeping back from upgrading (if you can find a good argument), I could see this for the latter (the time cost) but not for both.




AFAICT, they'll be 9s, but as I mentioned above, you'll be paying a lot less for them (both in time and credits).

Also, I don't think an industry level 1 should be able to build level 9s (industry or otherwise), I'd say that's the whole reason for the upgrade system.

Maybe not so much skipping, but an "Auto-upgrade <>" option so that we know that as soon as the next level of farms or industry comes, our systems start upgrading to those?

With a double-level limit on what is needed to build. By this, I mean:

A system with a Tech level 1 set of buildings cannot immediately begin upgrades for above tech 3 farms, or so.

Erm, not clear I dont think.

System:
T1 farms. Upgrade to T2 then onto T3 and T4 available.
T1 industry. T2 industry not available (but you're researching for it)

The system will upgrade the fars to Tech 3, as the industry can build items that are up to two tech levels above itself, (i.e. T1: 1-3, T2: 1-4 etcetera, to T8: T10)

This almost forces you to balance out other upgrades with upgrading farms (which eventually would take forever using T1 industry anyway, unless your system is 300+ with loads of +food buildings in the energy screen)


For the auto-upgrade, say you've done upto T3 farms, and just waiting for T2 industry to become available.

Then you're busy and forgot when it did came about, but hey, all your systems you have set to auto-upgrade (similar to BotF's auto build function) so the system goes "oh, this upgrade is available, build it!" and if your industry was high enough, within the turn it then goes, "Hey I can build that T4 Farms now too, lets get started on that!"

It would essentially be a recursive algorythm.

*beams* I just said Algorythm.

but yeah, checking the option would 'enable' the calculation for that system, but to prevent slowdown, it could be limited so that it is only called every say, 10 turns. On the other hand, it would follow a priority thing for queing, so even if there are multiple upgrades to do but not enough industry to complete any within a single turn...

Industry tops.
Farms second.
Energy third.
research fourth
intel fifth
buildings then afterwards in this order:
+ energy buildings
+/+% Food buildings (By doing the energy you are liekly to then power these when built )
+ pop health etc (not to include pop growth and max pop increase buildings, which not only dont work, but also *stop* pop growth)
+ Resource related
+ Research and intel related.

within those, it would do by alphabet too.

The 2 level ceiling, that's what I had in mind with my previous post, actually. A bit like the 2 generation ship obsoletion.
Now, you could also argue that a certain level of industry should not be able to (easily at least) produce ancient tech...

This all level thing is kind of weird though. And it's not just related to these ceilings, but the game's design. You would be able to, for example, build a shipyard or any advanced unique strucutre with industry level 1, but not level 4 basic structures...

No, It's one-way, not both. otherwise colonies *would* have to start at low tech and no option to auto upgrade. unless auto-build included the basic tech stuff.

Although thats not a bad idea. Even on Tech 6 all across the board, it's a bit of a nightmare setting up new colonies.

Supremacy utilizes a virtualized file system specifically to support mods. Preliminary support for mods is already in the game, but it's undocumented and probably incomplete. Testing will reveal areas where mod files are not being loaded in favor of the standard files.

The idea is that each mod will have a .modconfig file containing a unique identifier, the name of the mod, its root file system folder, and some other info. When the game tries to load, for example, "vfs:///Resources/Data/TechObjectDatabase.xml", it will first look for "TechObjectDatabase.xml" in "(Mod Root)\Resources\Data" and then "(Game Root)\Resources\Data".

Something like how EAW deals with mods.

I'm all for changing the tech/research system entirely. Personally, I would prefer a system closer to GalCiv2 where you research individual techs in a tree. That way buildable items could depend on specific tech advancements rather than just a category/level combination. The tree would still be broken down into categories, but there could be multiple research paths rather than a fixed matrix where your only input is how research points are allocated between the various categories. We could even go for a graph-based system instead of a tree, which would allow unlockable items (e.g. ships and structures) to be included in the graph itself. However, this generally leads to a very complex and confusing UI, as in FreeOrion:


However, changing the tech/research system would mean:

1. Actually thinking up a new tech tree.
2. Figuring out specific tech dependencies for all unlockable objects in the game.
3. Editing a crap-ton of game data.

I don't mind doing the programming if people volunteer to think up a bunch of new research items and dependencies and then do the editing.

Civ 4 also works that way. It's a good way of supporting mods, and also means you can have as many mods as you like installed without affecting the original files. I used to have loads of mods installed for Civ 4. Then I started merging them into one gigantic mod just for myself lol.

*Edit - OMG. Mike posted the above post while I typed the above. DAMN I like the research tree in that image Mike. You say that it's FreeOrion? I'm definitely gonna have to check it out. Matress loves confusion and complexity.

You know that we can come up with the data behind the techtree Mike. Hell we came up with most of the database. We could easily come up with more if you're willing to do the programming - and people actually want this change of course. But i'd certainly vote for it.

I don't know, the current Tech System is good and I don't think we should change it. I mean, it's familiar to all former BOTF players and easy to learn for all new players, to add that it will take time from things like AI, combat engine, diplomacy and espionage......

I vote against changing the tech system.

Complexity in a UI is a bad thing, and with a graph-based research system, it'd be hard to present it visually without a complex UI. Check out the GalCiv2 tech tree image link that I added a moment ago. If properly organized, a tree-based system can get you the same results with much less complexity.

No vote required. I would instantly approve this, provided someone gives me a tech tree that I'm satisfied with.

The good news is that there are relatively few subsystems which interact with the tech system at this stage of development. It actually wouldn't have that high an impact. Most of the impact will be on the game data, hence my stipulation that somebody else worry about that .

Just keep it simple boys. Do not get too carried away.
You do need to allow for enough eunuchs by tech level
10 so I can still run my palace, but that is about it.

Yeah, a more conventional techtree would be great!
Now, the whole 10 levels of basic structures will have to go, with this new techtree. Which is a good thing IMO.

Time to forget about BotF2, and make Supremacy its own game!

I'll wrap my head around this techtree thing, and see what I can come up with.

Have you thought about how the mod selection is going to be made?
A dropdown in the custom game screen, different desktop shortcuts with different targets/switches, etc?