Should the ships of the different races be balanced or should they be like they are in the show. iE Federation Ships beeing inferior to the Klingons in the ENT era?

NO!!!

DO NOT MAKE THE SHIPS BALANCED!

Make the Fed ships weak in ENT era, and make them more up to scratch, as you move on.

People want canon. People want realism.

Early Fed ships being weak is canon. Early Fed ships being weak is realistic.

This is my opinion.

Yeah, don't balence the ships at all, balence the cultures or production times. In the ENT era, the Earth ships should be very weak, not even a tenth the strength of a Vulcan or Andorian ship, let alone a Klingon one. This should be off set by humanity having the fastest tech research of all the civilizations. Then, once the Federation comes about in the 2160s, the other races should see what's going on and accelerate their tech programs, maching the research ability of Earth. Later on, the Federation still has the reasearch edge but it's slight, the great ships can be offset by either longer build times or higher prices, but I wouldn't go for both higher price and longer build time.

Really, ships like the Galaxy, Vor'cha, and D'Deridex are balenced, just not totaly even. The Galaxy does slightly better than both but the V and D probably have better firepower and the G better shields. Overall, the balence is in favor of the Galaxy. Which is funny because it isn't even a dedicarted war ship like the others. Jack of all trades, master of all.

I see real problems with what you suggest. If the game stays too canon you would have a Federation in the beginning that has slow shipbuilding capabilities, bad ships and hardly anything that would anybody keep from wiping them out alltogether. If you make contact with any of the other races seen in ENT that has the slightest taste of war you'd actually be screwed as you would be easy picking without Vulcans beeing your protectors (on a random map they could be in another Quadrant alltogether).
I dont see a point in staying too canon with the initial release (I am sure someone could come up with a Federation realism mod)

If it starts with the NX-01, then you would be able to explore but not attack as the Federation. You could defend your self because you would have two classes of ships that can hold a decent enough amount of arms but are too slow to go anywhere in a decent amount of time. It fits because as the Federation you shouldn't be conquering everyone you see right in the beginning of the game, although I'll make a mirror universe scenerio where the Vulcans and humans are alied very tightly and you can just invade everyone. If you want to do that normaly, then you should become the Klingons or anyone else.

The Federation should be unable to invade because that would probably give them revolts all over if they do so (especially if they do it on a weak pre warp minor). If troop transports are still be used to build stations early FED ones should just be too weak to invade a system or if there are seperate builderships they probably shouldnt have troop transports until the TOS era. Leading an offensive war as the Feds should be something that causes massive moral issues thats why you wont do it not because your ships are just too crappy to do so in the start. Starfleet ships should have two advantages throughout the game. Slightly better shields (in the beginning hardly an advantage as shields probably would be weaker than hull) and better science ships (maybe an RP bonus accociated with Explorer type ships could also be FED exclusive).

The Federation will be able to invade but with a major moral penalty, or whatever we use in the final product. First of all the Federation may end a war by means of war, but not begin a war. By ending war i mean defending and keeping all your systems and stuff, or that of allies and try and bring peace between the two of you. The Federation can bombard systems when they want to, but this would mean a big moral drop. You can do whatever you like with the Federation, but most likely this would mean that your empire would get devided between several systems that have declared indepence of you. I agree that Science and Defences are the biggest strengths of a starship in the Federation and of the Federation itselve, along with diplomatie and all that stuff.

Guess we have the same oppinion on this Iwulff

This is just an argument of background why humans can't attack others, where as we both agree they shouldn't be attacking. In the beginning, it makes far more sense to just have it that Earth is physically incapable of waging war and that later it becomes a moral problem. Why would it be hard to have a tech tree based transition from being incapable to being capable but triggering a distaste for war?

Shields are many times more powerful than polarized hull plating. It's made clear in Enterprise.

That's increadably unrealistic. No country becomes crippled with low morale just because a war has been declared, especialy to the extent of division. For one thing, no one cares despite saying they do, it gets spun, or people are for it. In order for a war to do that it would have to be unusually unpopular; such as attacking the harmless teddy bear people of Alpha Omicron Beta Articulie because the military hasn't had practice in a long time and the admiral was bored. Then the same thing would have to go on for maybe four decades in order to bolster the economy through war production because the farms are failing and everyone except the ultra wealthy have to pay 70% or higher taxes. Most of which goes toward building and filling the Emperor's twelve acre diamond filled 24' deep swimming pool and hosting Roman style orgies of gorging one self, regurgitating, and then gorging a few more times for good measure. The origies are finished up with a gladatorial battles faught by those who cannot pay their taxes. These battles are linked to space ships which do battle in orbit, the quality of the fighting on the ground decides the orbital battle. Battles are to the death and the looser's family dies with him, including friends and neighbors.

My point is that civil war will happen if one group feels their way of life threatened or if the people at large feel they are being oppressed and some how figure it out as well. The only groups who would leave the Federation because of a war would be people who are like those aliens who were conquered twelve times because they refuse to fight or the Vulcan if the war didn't have some sort of logical reason backing up. The Klingons would applaud the Federation for not taking teddy bear crap, and the Andorians would belive the teddy bears were plotting something and would be right, the Betezeds would refrain from reading their mines because the teddy bears are too animal in nature, etc.

Sorry the shield statement was meant to represent the shield value of the starships not the actual form of what shield means here. What I meant by shields would be weaker than hull was that because there is Hull polarization that would be translated into a very low shield rating of that ship.

The general problem that remains is the balancing of ships and empires. I dont think its a good idea to have different progression speeds in different time eras. The game should be open for different developments. As advancement is very much determined by recources and expansion is dependent on advancement it is just pointless to have special bonuses that are taken away or given to an Empire during its development.

Basic bonuses like in BotF (more money for the Ferengi, more science for FeD) are already problematic but wont upset the balance too much if they are balanced against each other. In the end what should determine the progression of the empires is their recource potential. A 2 system Federation will at all times be far back in tech than a 20 system Cardassian Union just because Cardassia can mount the recources needed for advancing their tech.

To stay in character as the FEDs there should be a reason from the beginning that wont change or be introduced during the game.

Imagine a random game:

You set out as the FEDs (have no or low penalty for attacking the others) you conquer some pre warp minors boosting your overall empire standing, colonise a bit and end up with quite a nice little empire by the time you reach the technology of the TOS era. So what in the world would keep such a Federation from proceeding as it has? There is no reason for this Federation to change its mindset and play "huggy the treelover" after it has lead wars to become so big (after all it has helped them to be conquerors). There is no logic in that.
The point is: Do you want to play a game or have a fictional history simulator of Federation progress? Honestly I want to play a game.

You make an excellent point, and I just want to play a game, not a sim.

I agree with Diarr, that when war has been declared as the Feds, there is no reason for worlds to declare independance. Unless the war is the Feds fault, and has been going on for years (or decades) with the feds ignoring their adversaries requests for peace. Thats the only time I would think worlds would declare independance.

Worlds should be demoralized during war that has been initiated by the federation, but not when the federation is responding to being attacked.

But I disageree with Diarr when he says that the federation should be incapable of war at the begining. Even when I played with the federation in the original BOTF, if I found a minor race close to Sol in the begining that would be easier to conquer than win through diplomacy, I would conquer them. I understand not everyone would do this, but that is no reason to exclude it from being an option. Doing this would bring down morale in your native systems, as well as in your newly conquered lands, but since this is so far in the begining, after a few 'game' years or decades this would start to disapate. (Slower in the conquered land than in your native systems)
This just goes back to Zell's comment about wanting to play a game over a fictional history simulator.

I want both.

The main conditions throughout the game for not having a warlike bend can be present at the same time as the early physical limitation for no play balence problem. To implement the low level of starting tech and to get out of it without a research bonus or others having an early research handicap could involve early Federation researchable upgrades being of a higher significance in each fire power, defense, and speed boost. Play testing can be done to make sure the more power Federation upgrades don't imbalence the game by making them advance to fast to too slow.

You guys want to be the Federation but destroy everyone on their path. That is not the role of the Federation and will not be implemented this way in the game. The Federation never starts of wars without a reason, i mean against the Dominion they sort of declared war against them but not without reasons. But if you would destroy entire worlds kill bilions of people, then do not be suprised that your people are trying to break from the mighty federation. The Federation is all about peace, research, high moral and that kind of stuff. So if you want to kill of people without reason then play the klingons or the dominion, their are loads of races who need such leaders.

The whole point of this is that if we take the things from the shows, in which the Feds have the technological edge over the other majors for the most part (Dominion may be the single exception) we have to give the others things that are equally powerful.
In the Show the Feds are like 30 years in front of the Cardies and 10 years in front of the Klingons and Romulans. What is necessary for the game is that all those powers if they have the recources to be on par with the Federation should have equally powerfull ship designs. So either there need to be more powerful refitted versions of the Ships we know or there have to be new designs for them to counter what the Feds have.

Moral and War: In gameterms I think the easiest way to implement a peaceful style of playing the Feds is a big moral penalty for waging war. May not be the most sophisticated one but its a good one in my opinion.

Game or Simulator: Just do a realism mod. For what you want the only things you probably will have to do is alter the ship stats. There you go weak Federation in the beginning. Combined with a canon map that really could be an interesting experience that I would enjoy from time to time. Its just not the kind of thing I want to see in every single new game I start.

Perhaps the game could have extra options at the begining, so you can select whether you want a random or canon map to play with

I don't really see why everyone is arguing over how the game will turn out though. You have to remember that THE GAME WILL BE AS ULTIMATELY MODDABLE AS IS POSSIBLE.

Basically, this means that you will be able to make the game into what you want. If you want a warlike Federation, then you will be able to make one. If you want the races to be cute little fluffy teddy-bears, then you'll be able to. And when you make a mod, post it on the site. Others will be able to play as well then.

The release version of the game should be as close to canon trek as is possible, though. The point of BOTF2 is to solve many of the problems of the original, that the demise of Microprose prevented. It's secondary purpose is to make life easier for modders, so the game will be ultimately moddable.

Some of the problems with BOTF, are because it was made more as a game, than a reflection of the trek universe. Starfleet ships should start off almost painfully weak, but they should receive numerous upgrades (Perhaps double the upgrades of the other races) However, these upgrades will obviously be for only the first era. In the rest of the eras, the Federation will have an equak number of upgrades, as the other races. So in the ENT era, the Federation could have perhaps 6 upgrades, while the other races have 3. Then there will be only 3 upgrades for ALL the races, in all the later eras.

This makes the game canon, while makes the Federation more playable, since their ships get better. Of course, there is then the problem of the Federation ships being in space dock all the time, to receive the upgrades, but perhaps the upgrades could be provided at the same time, so the refit waiting time is minimalised.

So what will happen if in the unmodded game Federation is painfully weak in the beginning.
The most probable results will be:
They hardly expand and are too weak in the ogoing game to have others join them.
They get conquered alltogether if there is a race in their neighbourhood that is agressive enough.
That will be the resulting effect when the computer plays as the Feds. A human can counter that, outsmarting the AI but the AI wont be able to outsmart itself. Countering that with assigning massive bonuses to the for a time is just plain illogical (why would they loose the bonus?) and letting them keep the bonus would absolutly unbalance the game in the later periods.


One thing possible solution for this if you want a weak Federation (or whatever other slow starting race) would be to give races (both minor and major ones) that have warp capacity and are backwards compared to their neighbours to get a Neighbour representing the ability to copy existing tech and the natural transfer that occurs through trade/smugling/civilian scientific exchange etc. But that should apply to all races. The more advanced the others in your vicinity are compared to you the higher the bonus gets (They wont care as much if you get your hands on technology that they already consider obsolete, they probably would try to keep their newest techs in secret limiting the bonus if you are closely behind them)

Well that is where espionage and security come into things. I haven't been on any threads about these, but I assume they will still be in the ga,me in some form, and that some races will have advantages in this respect.

The Federation would only be weak for a small number of turns/stardates. After you meet the first alien race (Ignoring the Vulcans, unless they really were the first race you meet), the Federation would realise that more weapons are needed on NX-class ships. Then after say, 5/10 turns better hull armour will be equipped, 5/10 turns after that, rudimentry shields (Extremely low powered ones) will be added, and so on.

These upgrades could be done in a turn or two, when an NX-class ship is sent back to Earth. If the ship is sent back, once several upgrades have been 'created', then these could be done all at the same time, but it would take longer to do so. All future ships would automatically have these upgrades built in.

Of course this means that there would have to be 6 of every Federation ship class in the ENT era, (So the upgraded ships really do have new stats) and all other ships in the game would need 3 versions (If there are going to be 3 upgrades per class)

Do you get what I am saying? 8O

Actually thats not what I meant. The bonus I was referring to would be an abstraction of the slow seeping in of foreign technology (isolationistic races shouldnt get the bonus) into your empire by various non intellegence means (trade/chance/copied ideas and designs (think Japan during the 60ies)).

Good thinking for the most part here. I reckon the NX should get 2 refits. The first equips her with photons and better phase coverage, the second gives her a shield grid and stronger beam weapons. It's not totally canon but it pretty much covers it.


Regarding the waeak humans. Couldn't the other races start with perhaps the predecessors to the ships we see on the show, something similar in strength to the NX?

In time they'll research the stronger vessels we know, however if you play properly you'll have daedalus level tech by then and therefore be in a similar ballpark.

Each race should have the ability to become more advanced than the others, however I don't think the Federation should be totally useless in the beginning. Let's say it takes 20 turns to build a single NX, you send Enterprise out there and in turn 10 it's destroyed by a klingon shuttle. What then?

Thats exactly the point that I tried to make Son of Mogh.
Though for the start I d say the easiest thing would be to balance the ships we know so they arent too different from each other. After all Enterprise blows up Duras BOP so the edge the Klingons have seems not to be too big

In the semi-canon and canon maps the neighbors should be in character enough and far enough away not to just conquer Earth in the beginning. In the random map mode, the Federation should start out just as strong as anyone else since it isn't canon anyway.

I don't like the idea of tech bonus from advanced neigbors, it's unrealistic in that advancement of a country depends on what they spend on R&D, manufactering, highering, and freedom in research. Proximity to tech advanced places makes no difference. In the end it can all be broken down to be reprisented by what you spend on the tech tree.
If there is a problem with making too many stages of upgrade, then two heavy ones will be fine. It should really be three or four though. The first would be coverage, photonic torpedoes, and armor. The second would be polorized hull plating, phaser power, extra torpedo tubes, sensors, and slight speed boost. Third could be shields for a huge defense boost. Final one could be a TOS refit on all systems but hitting the third refit should be enough to make you comparable to other powers and it should happen really fast.


The problem is that it was stated that the Vulcans took about a thousand years to get to where it took humans only a hundred. Give human twenty more years in ENT and they should be kicking ass with the best of them. That statement shows just how slow everyone in the universe advances in comparison to humans. I've forgoten my point but it's basicaly that they advance slowly and wouldn't be right to set them back several hundred years like that.

The NX needs to be put into perspective, it's only reletivly weak, not that weak. The NX is now a super armed and armored ship of exploration, it's still not a warship at all. Where as the D-5 was stated to be a battlecruiser and the Bird of Prey is probably even more powerfull since it has four large guns instead of just three. The NX is the equivilant of a super heavy scout, that's the sort of vessel you should face from another empire in the middle of no where.

Hmm, almost gave me an idea.

That's the exception of many other events. Duras had all of his shielding put fore, leaving his aft almost unsheilded. The NX got behind the BoP by hinding in a thick cload of anomoly gas and fired torpedoes at the weak end.

I can live with this approach but I'd like to see it as a mod rather than a part of the inital release as it would add just more work for the developers (new AIs for the canon map, new shiplists etc.). Id prefer the inital release beeing based around the random map. Everything else should be easily implemented.

You know what, I think the NX should start off on a level footing with all contemporary designs. It's gonna be a bitch in multiplayer if your friend the Romulan has a cruiser near earth destroying every ship you build.

Diarr, in an ideal world the ships would each have several refits. The reality is that in a game with progressive shiplists for so many empires with so many classes for so many purposes, one (perhaps two) refits of each class is still ambitious.

Worth a try. On to my next project; designing Cardasian ships beyond a destroyer level. There is actualy one Cardasian design I would love to see, just in a scaled down way. That huge super ship from that Dominion War game. The Hutet http://starfleetcommand3.filefront.com/ ... 5808_1.jpg
To make it fit in better I would shrink it by 50%, while maintaning weapon emiter size so it it isn't a total scale down, and sweep the blades back.
I think I might sketch up an example some time.

As we lack designs for advanced Cardi ships there is place for the Hutet as some kind of super Dreadnaught and your design as an advanced cruiser though I would make the ship seem more slender for the cruiser version.

Your lucky day mate.

Jig has already said the Hutet will be the premier Card battleship, (although possibly a bit smaller).

Well, yay! It really needs to be a lot smaller. Considering their tech level it made sense for it to be huge I guess, to make it comparable to other group's ships but it will be more fun as a ship that actualy is comparable in technology as well. The fastest way to make a new version will be to just kitbash the image I posted, so I'll do that. I still need to scan those Star Charts maps, I can do that tonight.

The Hutet looks amazing for a Cardassian ship!

It should be a (Relatively) small ship by Cardassian standards, to show the Cardassians can build something that is advanced enough to even think about taking on the other empires, but I think it should be a bit bigger than a Soveriegn/Negh'Var/D'deridex, because the Cardassians would build big, when they can. (Coz they seldom can)

The Cardassians rule by Military might, and it is possible to subdue an enemy by just sheer size. A Cardasian Battleship would reflect this.

Of course, it would have to have a longer build time-time than the other races' Battleships, because resources are a problem for the Cardassians. I don't think that it should be a massive difference though.

I agree as well that it would need to be more slender. A cruiser is built for speed, while still having a respectable armament. Large, spread-out ships will be slower and less maneouverable than small, compact ships, so I think the Cardassians would make the ship slender.

I've noticed as well, that most Cardassian ships tend to be relatively low in maneoverability, which gives them a bit of a tactical disadvantage. If the Cardassians are going to be able to advance to the level where they become a power like the races, they will need future ship designs that are more balanced, or that are at least more maneouverable.

Federation ships are designed to act as well alone, as in groups. This is a major advantage, when exploring space. On the other hand, Cardassian ships are designed to work in groups - a sign of their militaristic nature, and lack of resources. If the Cardassians were able to build similar ships, (Obviously during later parts of the game) then they would be better able to become such a power.

Of course, you could just build assault cruisers and pound your enemies into oblivion, but then the Cardassians wouln't have anyone left to rule over, other than themselves.

In a universe where they can build the Hutet, it's unlikely they'll be short of resources!

I'd personally have the Hutet as a Warbird sized ship, roughly equal to a Sovereign. I'd give it stronger beams than a Sovereign, similar shields but a beefier hull. The Sovereign would be more maneuverable, and of course have more powerful torpedoes.

I think the ship should remain fairly sluggish, but have a super powerful forward weapons array.

As matress said, the Cards tend to use a set of very standard attack formations, they're very regimented and by the book. This is presumably why their designs seem to have a far heavier forward weapon than the other weapons on the hull.

I think it would be cool to see very large ships in the battles. Especially Cardassians and maybe Romulans could use this to intimidate the others.

Reflected by a very long buildtime you could balance it off to the other races that use smaller but more ships. A vessel this size at the appropriate tech level that was designed with combat in mind would clearly wipe the floor with a ship far smaller and less compact like the Sovereign. But even with many recources this kind of ship would only be used as fleet command ships at a rate of 1:50 to smaller ships like Keldon and Galor.