Ok, this is a direct offshoot of the Ferengi thread. The thread kind of turned into a series of debates about which ships beat which etc etc etc.

Colione expressed a desire to have further debates to gain opinion on ship capabilities. I also think this is a great idea, partly as the stats will have to eventually be decided, (both for official release and mods), also as these kind of debates can be fun.

I'd like to debate things like shields etc, weapons, as well as sensor ability, speed, fuel consumption. As well as role, type, AGE , types of weapons.


Best to begin with Federation ships, although any debate is of course welcome.

REMEMBER- Nobody is right or wrong here, unless we see one ship defeat another on the show, or at least face similar opponents it's hard to judge. Any speculation is welcome, although I promise to eat the heart of anyone who claims any fan site or computer game to be a canon source of info.

Any chance of a sticky guys?

I have posted this in the Ferengi Forum so to continue with the debate here:

A thing everyone should consider is that at the end it has to be translated into the game. If the Defiant is that strong or not isnt really the question the question is should it be that way in the game too.

Following questions arise if the Defiant becomes a megaship:

-how do you counter its massive bonus?

As there is hardly any maintainance to pay (are there even credits?) apart from the Deuterium. Thereby it cant be done this way
Making her a ship that needs many officers is just out of question as we know its the exact opposite.
It has to be a rare sight ie has very long building times. This might be an option but why would she have a long building time. Its meant to be a small ship that trades luxury for smaller size so you probably would need a shorter period of time to build a Defiant class than a larger vessel. Isnt the perfect option either.

-Why even bother and build other larger ships in the game?

The game in the end centers around conflict. As rewarding as exploration might be in the end you will always have to fight to win. So where is the point in building a fleet of other ships if a handful of Defiants are just able to do this job much better. Where would be the point to build Intrepids, Akiras or Nebulas if the Defiant just renders them obsolete.

Show and Game:

Why do we see things in the show like the Odyssey beeing destroyed by 3 Attack ships. Because its part of the plot to show us that the Dominion is just the overly mighty badass empire that can kill the mightiest and most trusted shipclass the Feds can field (and which power the fans know from TNG). Its the same reason you wont see the main characters be killed together with their ships. Its a show after all. And to take the show into too much account will just lead you to get stuck within the many incontinuities (spelling?) of the same.

I was just thinking this may be easier to start with a template and work from there. That way all ships can be compared to this one and be measured accordingly. Of course the entire debate shouldn't focus on these set values, but having a template may help.


GALAXY CLASS STARSHIP- INITIAL BATCH, NO REFITS

SHIELDS- 1000
HULL- 250
PHASERS- 65 (14 phaser hits to deplete shields?)
SPEED- 3
SENSOR RANGE- 3 hexes
BUILD TIME- 20 turns (on average)
TORP SPREAD- 6
We'll assume the photon in use does 85 damage?

OK, so I need other opinions, could a Galaxy destroy another one's shields in 14-15 phaser hits? Is around 11 torps ok?

I'm basing torpedo spread on how many the ship can fire per turn providing she has a clear shot lined up.
I've not included phaser amounts as they won't be fired at once, a ship will merely fire the nearest phaser bank every couple of seconds.

Whilst at first glance it appears the battle between 2 Galaxies would take 3 turns at best, after turn one it will be more difficult to line up for a torpedo shot, so the full spread may not be used.

Does this need a big rethink?

If you wish to contribute to the debate then that's cool. Saying something's a plot device is a lame way out of any argument.

Regarding the Defiant.
*I think the build time should be long (ignore the mirror universe thing).
*It should cost a lot of resources, it's small, however has advanced technology, ablative armour is clearly hard to produce.
*Maintenence should be high
*It should have a low fuel reserve, meaning it's mainly based at a station rather than going deep into enemy territory.
*It has a low warp speed, compared to newer ships.
*It's sensors are not advanced, far less that other new ships.
*No scientific capability.

If the ship ends up being between Galaxy and Sovereign in terms of battle, I think all these disadvantages balance things. If a Sovereign takes a little longer, however can go extremely far, have great sensors, contribute to science and beat the Defiant then there's nothing super about it.

EDIT- Yes, money maintenence is in.
Other ships will have other benefits, especially for offensive actions. Besides, this game is not as much of a blast em up as botf was. You could argue that there's no need to build any vessel that's less capable than another, the Defiant is late game, too expensive to maintain many and generally a pretty crappy all round ship, just capable in battle.

Ill just post what I have in my shiplist and add the other stats that I havent yet included:

Galaxy Class (no refit)

What I had so far in my shiplist:
Shields: 1480 (10% recharge/turn)
Hull: 260
Phasers: 5x65 per turn
Torpedoes: 4x85 per turn
MAX Attack Power per turn: 665
Speed: Cruise 3 Max 4
Sensor Range: 4
Fuel: 88 = Range: 44 = Max. turns at Cruise speed before refuel: 29

Build time (only stat I still am lacking in the list): 20 turns

I had them running through my calculator (is limited to the max attack Power). The two Galaxys would survive 2 rounds and killed in the 3rd. With my standard recharge rate at 10% this adds another round to the survivability of the ships. Considering that not all torps may hit it can take much longer.

My stats on the Defiant (no Refits at this time Galaxy is at Refit 1)

Hull: think hull should be a abstraction of both Hull itself and space with systems that are of minor importance to the ship and can therefor be hit but not lead to total destruction


Shields: 900(15% recharge/turn)
Hull: 250
Beam: 16x15 (representing fast firing Pulse Phasors)
Torp: 2x100 (100 representing Quantums in my chart, probably should make them a bit more powerful)
MAX attack Power: 440
Speed: Cruise 2 Max 3
Fuel: 40 = Range: 20 = Turns/Cruise: 20
Sensors: 2
Build time: 10 turns

edit: 2 Defiants will destroy a Galaxy in 2 turns

Didnt want to end the debate its just my point of view that staying 100% true to what we see in the shows might not be the best for the game. A game needs a different logical setup than a TV show or film. In the process of porting the flair of Star Trek from a great show to a great game there have to be some adjustments for it to work.

Fair point. I guess as a Trek fan I know I won't feel comfortable playing a game that constantly defies the universe clearly established in the show. I do agree that concessions must be made and there has to be some compromise for the sake of playability.


Firstly I really like your Galaxy stat, it's very very similar to mine, which is largely coincidence as I've not been able to open your shiplist doc yet, (so computer illiterate it's untrue). I'm very happy to disregard the one I posted and go with this as a template. This thread could therefore also be used to discuss the shiplist you proposed and come to some agreements, as well as flesh out the different uses of each vessel as well.

I see the Galaxy V Galaxy battle lasting around 6 turns taking into account weapon arcs etc, works very well indeed.

I agree about the hull thing to an extent, it's certainly got to be a case of 'how easy is this ship to destroy?' rather than 'how strong is the hull armour?'

I also quire like your treatment of the Defiant. I think looking at these stats and taking into account maneuverability, it's still possible the Defiant could beat a Galaxy, given the rather large edge in maneuverability.

My personal changes to the Defiant;

*Shields are good, I'd put hull at 280 to reflect how rugged these ships are, I'd have no problem sacrificing some shields to achieve that and keep the balance.
*I'd drop the number of pulses to say 10, but increase the power to around 30-40. The ship needs to be able to demolish ships like Birds of Prey really easily. Again, I'd happily sacrifice more shield to compensate.
*Quantums should be upped to around 120 I think. In the show the ship tends to fire a spread of 4 (2X2), this works if the Galaxy gets a higher spread, but if the Galaxy retains 4, I'm happy with Defiant getting 2.
*Speed, fuel sensors good.
*The build time is good, considering the stats.

The minor alterations I proposed are an attempt to maintain the balance you've obviously established. If it were my shiplist, I'd have virtually all Defiant stats the same, but I'd up the quantum spread to 4, and increase pulse phaser power to around 50, I'd then set the build time to around 20 turns to compensate for how much stronger the ship would be.

What does everyone think?

BTW, I'm now really interested in checking your full shiplist Zell. Is it possible in any other format, or perhaps post the stats of a couple more ships to go through individually?

What do others think of the Galaxy and Defiant?

I ve put a PDF version of the main data and the shipprogression online

get it here:
http://members.kabsi.at/zelsspace/maintable.rar
http://members.kabsi.at/zelsspace/shipprog.rar

BTW you need acrobat reader to open those

According to Acrobat, "there was an error processing a page. A font contains a bad Cmap/encoding", any ideas?

Ok ive put uncompressed versions online (My PC crashed when I wanted to read one of the compressed ones) Really strange. The others work with my Acrobat reader (using version 5.0).

http://members.kabsi.at/zelsspace/maintable.pdf

Just got same message from acrobat after clicking on the link! I see a coloured grid, then it says there's something it can't understand and goes blank.

Darn I dont get it. I ll do an uncoloured version probably another Font. May take some minutes.

Cheers for that buddy, as I said I really like your Galaxy and even Defiant to some extent. I'm sure you'll be prepared for differences of opinion....

Try it again. If it doesnt work this time I really dont know what to do.

http://members.kabsi.at/zelsspace/maintable.pdf

Make sure you have the latest version of Acrobat Reader installed.
edit: According to a helpsite this error only occurs with earlier versions of the reader so with the latest version you should be able to read it

I have 5.0 installed but does not work!

Don't know what to say, I wonder if it's my computer...

There you go. A html version of the table

http://members.kabsi.at/zelsspace/maintable.html

Excellent, it works! I'm gonna log off now and have a good read of this. I'll be back tomorrow with some suggestions etc.

The more heads combining the better. Guess doing the Fed list will be the hardest. After that we should be able to start doing lists for the other races using the Fedlist as a template.

Here're my observations of 'Sacrifice of Angels', hope they help.
********************************************************************

In the episode recap at the beginning of DS9 season 6 'Sacrifice of Angels' we see a Klingon Bird of Prey destroy a Dominion attack ship in three shots of two pulses each. A few seconds later we see the same thing with the Defiant, except it fires four times with four pulses each to do the same.

- The Klingon BoP and Defiant Class ships have roughly the same amount of forward energy weapon fire power.

In DS9 'The Die is Cast' We see a Dominion attack ship fire on a Cardasian Galor Class ship four times and blow up the Bridge. In the 'Sacrifice of Angels' recap, we see the Defiant fired on four times and its shields holding.

- At the time of 'The Die is Cast', the Defiant presumably had better shields than a Galor Class ship as well as better hull as indicated by when it was fired on with shields down.

In the beginning of 'Sacrifice of Angels' a Federation Fighter takes two direct hits from the non-main weapon of a Cardasian Galor Class Destroyer.

- Can be used to establishe base line defense of Federation Fighters by comparison.

Four Federation Fighters fired five torpedo like shots at a Galor Class destroyer. As they passed by the ship was breaking apart, aperently disabled or destroyed.

- Federation Fighters are large enough to carry full size torpedoes but have no external detail that can be used to indicate a torpedo tube. They could carry them externaly, they coudl be micro-torpedoes of some sort, or they were firing overpowered pulse shots. It takes five torpedoes to either destroy or cause significant damage to a Galor Class destroyer.
-- Five Federation Fighters normaly make a fighter wing, rather than four.

Cardasian Hideki Class ships were firing on unseen vessels at close range, causing explosions with one shot reminisent of when the Federation Fighter is destroyed in the beginning of the episode.

- The main weapon of the Cardassian Hideki Class ship is twice as powerful as the secondary weapon of the Cardassian Galor Class destroyer.

"Cardassian Attack ships" are mentioned by Miles O'Brian.

- Hideki Class ships may be the "Cardassian Attack ships". They are after all similar to the Dominion Attack ships and other Cardassian ships are accounted for by previous examples.

A Galor fires its main weapon on a Federation Fighter, destroying it in one shot.

- Absolute lower limit for Galor Class destroyer's main weapon is twice the power of its secondary weapon or weapons.

A Galor Class Destroyer fires twice, using its main weapon, on what looks like an Miranda Class vessel, causing damage that continues after firing, to its warp nacelle.

- Two Galor Class destroyer shots from its main weapon peirce the shields of a Miranda.

Five phaser shots from two Galaxy Class ships seem to disable a Galor Class destroyer. This is not unlike the damage caused by the Federation Fighters.

- Federation Fighter torpedo like weapons may be micro-torpedoes. Five Galaxy Class phaser shots disabled a Galor. These phaser shots did not seem to be of full power as there was not enough time to use the full arrays of either vessel.

The Defiant destroys a Hideki in three shots of four pulses each.

- The Hideki is comparable to the Dominion attack craft in defensive ability but slightly less so.

On blue beam from, presumably, a Dominion ship of unkown type caused the same damage to a Miranda's port nacelle as the Cardasian Galor did to the previous Miranda. However, this was done in one shot, rather than two, taking half the time.

- Inconclusive.

The same ship then takes one white torpedo like weapon shot to the ventral bow portion of the saucer. This destroys the forward half of the saucer of the Miranda. It was no doubt weakened by the earlier shot to its nacelle.

- Inconclusive

The port Miranda, takes a continuous shot of what looks like a Cardasian beam from a craft of unkown type. This beam hulls the Miranda in two seconds and stops firing after three seconds. The damage is not unlike that caused by the torpedo to the E-nills hull in the movie with the Cloak firing Klingon Bird of Prey.

- The beam came from either a Galor or Keldon. Most likely a Galor since no Keldons were seen in the battle and haven't been seen for several episodes or even after. Considering the duration of the shot before damage occured, the Miranda may very well have had full shields before the strike. The same can't be said for its counterpart.

The vessel then apears to be hit by a torpedo fired from a Dominion ship of medium size but the torpedoe in fact misses.

- Further damage is accuring do to a fatal chain reaction caused by the previous beam's damage.

Sitak and Majestic were the names of the two Miranda Class ships escorting the Defiant.

- Just for note.

Another Dominion Attack ship is killed with about four shots by Defiant, other shots are fired that miss.

- Supporting evidence.

Four shots seem to be fired. These are fired by Klingon Vor'Cha. A single shot hits each of the two Dominion Attack Craft.

- Vor'Cha main pulse weapon is four times more powerful than the pulse weapon of a Bird of Prey and eight times more poweful than a pulse weapon from the Defiant. The Vor'Cha is twice as powerful as the BoP and four times more powerful than the Defiant, considering the amounts of shots required, ignoring misses, not counting indivigual pulses.

This is of course all helpful, and give some ideas about what's what. The problems lie in the fact that much of this is contradicted in other episodes. For example,
"Way Of The Warrior" shows a Defiant can disable or destroy a BOP in one hit, yet "Sons And Daughters" has a BOP take as many as 10 to 12 hits from various Jem Hadar fighters and survive. That would mean the Jem Hadar vessel is useless. It can be destroyed in a couple of hits from some ships, yet has around 1/10 the firepower of a Defiant.

I'd say the Generic points we can take from your analysis are.

1/ The Jem Hadar attack ship, the BOP, and Hideki have very heavy firepower (around Defiant standard), yet virtually no defence.
The Defiant has similar firepower, yet far superior shielding/hull.

2/ Galor class ships, (presumably most Cardie ships) have a forward weapon that's twice the power of their secondary beam weapons. It would appear the Galor has an equal forward weapon the the Hideki, (and incidentally the bop, jh, and defiant). It seems these smaller vessels have similar forward firepower to the large cruiser counterparts, just less coverage and far less shielding.

3/ Miranda class ships have similar shielding to the BOP etc, yet presumably far less firepower.


Objections.

1/ I don't believe the Galor was disabled or destroyed by the fighters, it merely had some explosions from torpedo impacts around it's dorsal shield. It could have been fine.

2/ I'm not convinced that the Vor'Cha pulses are in fact pulse weapons and not torpedoes, not am I convinced they came from the Vor'Chas and not the accompanying BOPs. In WOTW, a Vor'Cha fires a susteined beam weapon against the Defiant which seems to do very little damage, if they had the incredibly powerful pulse weaponry it seems odd they wouldn't use it given the circumstances.



I think at the end of the day, Zell's right. We need to be debating how these ships can be transferred to the game and come up with an acceptable generic shiplist. I'm constantly biting my tongue about how much weaker the ship is in game compared to the show, but a compromise is needed to make a playable game. I'll probably mod it later, but this needs to be a generically acceptable shiplist.

INITIAL FEEDBACK

Replacements-

*As Discussed before, I believe the Daedalus should be the early science ship. I'd have it pop up around 50 turns after NX. I'd have the original series type Miranda as the 2nd destroyer, replacing the Intrepid at the time the Constitution replaces the NX.

*Daedalus can then be in service as a science vessel until the launch of the Oberth. I'd have that sometime after the constitution, but before the movie refits. I know Oberth registrys have been low, but this fits with the appearence of the ship. If it slightly predates movies refits, it will look like refit technology is based off Oberth design, fairly consistent.

*I'd have Steamrunner buildable at least as early as Galaxy, then you wouldn't have a ship as old looking in the build list alongside Galaxies.

*I don't believe production of the Nebula would be affected by the Prometheus. I think the Prommie is seperate.

All in all, ship progression is pretty good. I think the main thing is that there's a clear visual distinction between ships of the;
NX type
TOS type
Movies type
pre TNG and TNG type
post TNG type

It's important that no ship from an era verstays it's welcome too much, the build list should always look consistent with itself, ie several ships from the same era for different purposes.


Strengths-

*Again, pretty good. I don't want to sound like a stuck record but I think the Defiant's far too weak in comparison to ships like the Intrepid. Perhaps the Intrepid and Defiant could swap places in terms of effectiveness, in order to maintain the balance. This would work well as the Intrepid is very fast like a scout ship, the Defiant is much slower yet more poweful. If the build times were swapped, I think it would actually make more sense as the Intrepid is far more capable in the role the Defiant seems to fill here.


Additions-

*Sabre. Would make the perfect Miranda replacement around the time of the Galaxy. I'd have the Steamrunner replace the Constellation, and the Akira replace nothing.

*Danube. Buildable around the time of Defiant. Replaces nothing. Stupidly cheap, short range, slow, weak. Ideal for stations which don't warrant being assigned their own starship.


As I said, I think this is a fine shiplist. I'm still getting my head round which refit ships will be on by the time new ships are launched etc, but as said very good. The Intrepid so needs to swap places with the Defiant in terms of overally battle capability. This would make the Intrepid the ultimate light scout as I said.

EDIT- In my botf mod I changed the name of the Edward colony ship to Frontier class. I just think it's such an appropriate name for the type of ship.

I converted the shipprogression to html too.
The main table aint very chronological and cant be as easily changed in excel as it would **** up the calcs for everything else.

So here goes (chronologically ordered with all Refits):
http://members.kabsi.at/zelsspace/shipprog.html

ENT to TOS progression
As in an earlier discussion with MajorDiarr we both agreed that because of the extremly low regestry numbers of some Oberths you may get it very early on and have it progress until the TNG era.
The Daedalus therefor comes a bit later on. It seems the Deadalus is this far a bit overpowered though. I will halve her torpedo launchers to 1 so the bonus from the first Photons wont make her an early Defiant compared to the Constitution.

I would introduce the Miranda with the first Constitution Refit. Representing the advance of technology the Constitution gets all the nifty things that were introduced during the Miranda development.

I quite like the Miranda being introduced at the same time as the Cons refit. That also explains why it's buildable later than the cons.

Are you keeping the Daedalus as a destroyer?

I'll check out the progression thing, should clear things up a little.

~This isn't a problem, this is just the way the ship is, a very weak mass produced ship, used for "human wave" tactics. The Dominion is designed for the submission of already submissive groups as used by leaders who consider all but them selves to be disposable. The weakness of the ship should come as no suprise. The BoP being disabled easly fits with it being an old vessel and a more Klingon stance of going all into the attack, despite what the Bat'Leth requires.

Here is what I derive from our information:
--------Attack---Defence
Bug---02-------40
BoP---10-------25
Def----10-------80
Hid----??-------50

25 defense for the BoP because it was disabled but not distroyed. Presuming that another set of shots could destroy it. 80 Defiant defense based on the four hits to the hull, doubled to include a lower limit for shields. It's probably even higher, maybe 120. Hideki defense based on it actualy taking five sets of Defiant shots. No telling what it's fire power is like but it's probably right between Def/BoP and the Dominion Bug, so maybe 5, leaning up though. That would give us the power for the secondary weapons of the Galor which would be half or less for ~2.5. That in turn means the Federation Fighter rates a 5 in defense on this little scale which fits back into the Bug fire power because there is a fly by of some FF at one point in "SoA", a blue beam is firing on one of the fighters for about a second for no apparent damage.

1/ Accounted for in above.
2/ We would need to see a Hideki taking on a shot at the nacelle of a Miranda to be sure or through a logical connect the dots as with above. The Galor probably has better main weapon firepower through size alone, anything else is absurd, especialy for a game.
3/ examples please

Rebut
1/ The Galor imidiatly starts listing after being strafed, just as the other does after being struck by the two Galaxy Class ships. The Galors being disabled by the seperate attacks is most likely, by what I remember, ships in Star Trek only list once disabled.

I just rewatched the part. The Hidekis are definatly the "Cardassian Attack Ships" Miles O'Brian refers to because they are the only Cardassian ships that break off in the previous combat scene.

2/ Throughout all of Star Trek, torpedo weapons are extremely distinctive with their rotating halos and generaly have a round shape. There are only two examples that break the round shape, yet they still have round glows even though the centers are elongated torpedo casing shape or torpedo shaped. All of the shots fired were long steady shots, indicitive of pulse weapon fire. Some of these shots came directly from the bows of the two Vor'Chas present. The Vor'Cha has been shown to fire pulses in an episode of TNG. Variable fire between pulses and beams has been shown with Federation phaser rifles and Dominion Attack Ships.


The Daedalus is fine as a pure science ship in that at that time, all powers within the Federation except Earth would be extremely well armed and would probably not be ready yet for the Federation's Starfleet to be armed even with it being part of the treaty. In the mean time the common defense would be handled by the ships present in the indivigual group's fleets. Just as back ground explanation as to why the Daedalus can be pure science without difficulty.

Interesting idea, have it so you can build Earth, Andorian, Vulcan, and Telerite ships in the beginning. I know it starts with the Brith of the Federation, so forget it. Order of ships should be Deadalus, Oberth, Miranda, Constitution. New thought, the Daedalus has to have a reasonable armement, otherwise it will have to be imidiatly replaced by the Oberth. This way it can compliment the Constitution and Miranda untill it's replaced.

The Oberth's registry isn't just low, it's the lowest registry known after the NX-01 Dauntless, not doubt for a Dauntless Class of ship at the very beginning of the Federation. If I'm not mistaken, the Daedalus is just the name of a ship wich people think relates to the model that Sisko had. It's more likely the actual class of ship was the Dauntless Class, not Daedalus Class. The name should be changed... FOR THE SAKE OF CANON! CHANGE IT!

The Defiant should definatly kick Intrepid meterphorical ass. The Intrepid is just a science ship that happens to be well armed. The Defiant is a warship that happens to be well scienced.

Big question, how many classes per era and how many upgrades per ship? Are their weapon, defense, speed, fuel, experience based tech upgrades that near spontaniously add them selves to ships, add at any base, or add at creation? What about the idea that an NX registry ship is created automaticaly on the completion of a new ship class research? Once I have answeres to the first two questions I can make a list because I want to know how big the list should be and I want the Oberth to be available untill the post-TNG era. This will let me know how much filler the alien ship lists need, as well. Thanks.

I thought it was stated by the devs that fighters were out of the game or was that only the carriers.

@Son of Mogh
I would have the Deadalus as a Destroyer because with the Oberths early introduction we would end up with two science ships.

@Diarr
The upgrade process has been already discussed and i was under the impression that ships will be able to be refited at shipyards only. After the refit has been made available you can only build refitted ones or no new ships at all if the class had become obolete by that time. New ships or their refits will be made available after certain tech has been researched (whatever that is techlevel or individual techs I dont know as that hasnt been stated)

Slowly I realy come to the conclusion that you didnt even take a look at what I came up with, as most of your questions are answered in the two tabloids that I created. I dont say that those are perfect but its a good start and if someone makes a good point with them I am gracious to inlcude new better data. .

There's a lot to answer there so I'll prioritise...

*I'm going to totally disregard the debate about Sacrifice for now. I believe most of your arguments are backed up anyways.

*On occasion the Defiant has taken many more than 4 hits from a Jem Hadar ship. It's hard from the evidence to suggest a defence value.

*I feel the need to correct you on something... The designation Daedalus class is completely canon. It's stated that the Archon lost a few hundred years before the TNG episode Power Play was Daedalus class. You are completely right that the model in Sisko's office could be anything at all. I don't mind that being the Daedalus if it's a science ship, but if it were a cruiser it must have looked different

*I don't personally want Earth, Andorian, Vulcan ships buildable at start. In the timeline of the game you're not guaranteed to meet them at all, that's what keeps it interesting. You'd have to have pre set members for all empires, very messy. Could make a good mod, a canon mod, but in terms of the game you'll have one system and start with the early ships.

*I've thought for some kind there must have been a Dauntless class, the first Federation vessel. However there's no need to have it in the game, it would require a new design that's not canon, when we already have so many canon ones.

*Defiant would possibly benefit from the target practice, but otherwise there's no need to even discuss that battle.


*Your last point about how it works, I know you're not an old BOTF pro so I'll start at the beginning. It is quite a bit different anyway.


Ships per era- Not set, eras aren't that clearly defined. As the Constitution is researched, it's pointless building NX's. As a result the NX disappears from the build list when the Constitution is ready.
There's no transition between the 'eras' there needs to be at least one Explorer/Destroyer/Science/Colony etc per era, plus other types of ships added in.

Experience- Will have no bearing at all on any set measurable statistic of a vessel. Experienced ships in BOTF fired weapons with more accuracy and dodged enemy fire more effectively.

Refits and Upgrades- When a new version of a ship is researched the following happens;
-The old design is replaced in the build list by the new one, the old configuration is no longer buildable.
-All existing ships of that class remain exactly the same in every way, however they can be refit up to the new specifications.
-Any refits must be done at an appropriately sized shipyard, or spacedock. They will take X amount of turns depending on the benefits, and will also have a cost.

Nothing will pop out of thin air and attach itself to ships in deep space. Refitting a vessel means pulling it off it's current mission.

Experience will be one number, it affects only battle performance.

Old ships like the Oberth will be buildable until a newer vessel makes them obsolete. In all current shiplists you can carry on building Oberths right until the Nova is ready. That is, you can build the most current version of the Oberth.

I completely agree having the research project culminate with the launch of each new prototype would be cool, however this would mean tying a shipyard into the research project as no ship will be build from nowhere.

Hope that helps.

Beaten to it...

There will be no fighters, they will be no carriers. Anyone who doubts the seriousness of this statement will be subject to jigalypuff's foul language. It has already led to one very annoying individual going missing with no leads and lots of suspects.

I did, I didn't know whether they followed a pre-established system or what the system was. Although, I turns out I did know it, I just didn't know it.

I don't know he thinks of when he hears "fighter" but I'm thinking of a small, cheap, fast to build, warp vessel.

There will be no ships of any kind deployed form other vessels. That much is certain.

I don't think the Federation Peregrine will be in the official release, although it could be modded in of course as a warp capable ship.

If you meant Jem Hadar attack ships etc then of course they're in.

I mean the Federation Fighter (peregrin). It's warp capable. It's just about the only way they could have got anywhere without a carrier, other than Galaxy Class ships. Really it has to be, enemies would be able to just warp away from them if they were the only weapon around because they could be used for system defense in that case. I want a pre-TNG era Fedeation Fighter for system defense, it'll have almost no range. Then a refit with decent range so it can go from system to system at least. Then it'll be replaced by the craft used by Data in Insurection, that thing just screams fighter to me. Really they're more like torpedo boats. That reminds me of something I made several years ago, an actual torpedo boat.

Anyway, I'll go make my list now.