I'd like to get a feel for what people think about the names and "variants" of Production Facilities.

We currently have 1 food, 3 industry, 2 energy, 1 research and 1 intel facility/name per empire. Will this be confusing?
Why is it that only industry and energy have multiple variants?
While it is easy to identify the level of a Type 6 Automated Farm, is it a problem for Type C/3 Mass Replicator?
Do the current names convey correctly the sense of production facilities, or could they be improved? Does a guild or a dispenser fit?

Or should we go back to BotF's one name per PF type, and reverting back to (some/most of) their names?
Only one name per PF type would be more consistent, and require less memorization from the player. Also, having names and images change in the middle of an upgrade path might look odd in that the new image might not be consistent with the previous one. We'd also need less images.
In this case, one option could be something like:

Cardassians
Hydroponics Farm
Assembly Yard
Fusion Plant
Science Centre

Dominion
Processing Plant
Industrial Complex
Power Grid
Research Centre

Federation
Automated Farm
Replication Plant
Plasma Reactor
University

Klingons
Hunting Ground
Construction Hall
Matter Furnace
Hall of Learning

Romulans
Organics Plant
Fabrication Plant
Gravitic Turbine
Laboratory

Minors
Farming Centre
Manufacturing Plant
Power Station
Research Lab


Any feedback is welcome. Changing the names of structures is time consuming, so I'd like to get this finalized asap.
Thanks in advance.

The names are clear as to what they do.

When I was playing initially it was mildly confusing, so this time I went through the list of the Production Facilities for the Feds and yeah I noticed they were a little hard to get used to as they occasionally change names mid-game.



In the case where the name change is important (should it be deemed so) you could always compromise between homogenization and chaos by doing something like:

Type 1 Farm - Automated Farm
Type 1 Industry - Fabrication Plant
Type 1 Energy - Fusion Reactor
Type 1 Science - University
Type 1 Intelligence - Intel-Net

Type 11 Farm - Automated Farm
Type 11 Industry - Mass Replicator (Type F)
Type 11 Energy - Plasma Reactor (Type H)
Type 11 Science - Elite Academia
Type 11 Intelligence - Intel-Net

or list the rank after like:

Elite Academia (Type 11 Science)

My only concern with the suggestions I made above would be that the length of the names in characters would be too long. The alternative to that would be having a property of the object called rank or something so the UI could display it's rank i.e. "Type 5" as a detail of the building. This however would require an additional property entry in the database.

Anyways just trying to brainstorm some alternatives.

Thanks for your input Kaladin, I really appreciate it!

Yours is a good suggestion, though you're right, the names will get too long. I think we are complicating what should be simple (with the current names, not your suggestion), and hence my post.
Having to display something like
Type 11 Industry - Mass Replicator (Type F)
is symptomatic of the complication IMO.
To make things worse, industry and energy are "out of synch":
Type 11 Industry - Mass Replicator (Type F)
Type 11 Energy - Plasma Reactor (Type H)

I think the bottom line is, is there any real gain in having industry and energy strctures be split like that? If there was continuity in the name progression, it could be mildly interesting, but that's not really the case I think. (in the case of conquered colonies, you might actually go through 4 different names for industry)


Keep brainstorming!

Thanks for your contribution too Kenneth.
I wouldn't say the names are very clear though, or the most appropriate. Naturally, else I wouldn't have posted about it of course.
For example, the Klingons are kind of weird. The Hunting Grounds were very much klingon-ish, a Processing Plant... not so much. We discussed the Klingon warrior (/hunter) spirit a few days ago. Granted, a Processing Plant is more general, and "works" for any planet type, while the Hunting Grounds might sound odd. But I'd go with the HG anyway, because it feels better. The Halls of Learning, same thing. Working Party?! When making the image for it, Bashir didn't know it was a lab - so I guess the names are not very clear as to what they do for _everyone_.

Preferably keep to what worked in botf so yes i would hope 1 buildable per type not multiples i.e more than 1 industry building or research etc and just use numbers for upgraded ones per tech level.

Tho of course there would be bonus things you could build like tal shiar for so so bonus to intel or somit. So that would be the only way to have more than 1 thing to build per resource type.

In the real world tech is complicated, just look at graphics cards for example, even ones from the same manufacture can be really confusing with their model numbers. However you must balance realism with usability, making sure the learning curve doesn't deter people from playing.

It's feasible if you wish to mention the name in the description if you want to compromise. That should require a lot less effort and make things a lot less confusing.

Example:

Name: Type 11 Industry
Production Category: Industry
Population Maintenance: 10
Unit output: 10
Obsoletes: Type 10 Industry
Description: This Type F Mass Replicator structure is the latest in Federation technology, used for large-scale creation of simple and complex material via energy to mater conversion science.

We're talking about names that describe a production facility type and its "era", not the technical designations of a piece of hardware. All we want/need is a name that is easily identifiable and that describes the structure.

Calling it Type 11 Industry, while functional, is kind of dry. It wouldn't look good for the other production types too: Type 11 Food etc.

Having different designations in the name and description, hmm. It'll just be confusing IMO, or it might look like sloppy QA


While it's nice that the industry and energy PF names try to convey tech advancements as you go through the tech matrix, I think it's kind of awkward because not all names are facility types (there's no continuity in the names), and the same principle doesn't apply to Food and Research.

I was simply meaning so you could weave in names of tech from cannon content or if you felt a specific tech upgrade was needing to be referenced but didn't want it in the name. My example was poorly crafted but was just there to illustrate my point.

My point for the graphics card was just to illustrate that things do occasionally get named inconsistently.

Also, yes, the “type 11 industry” was just me again using a place holder name to show what I was talking about earlier and for ease I used it again in my second post. I would hope we could come up with a better naming convention, I was simply trying to tackle the formatting of the name in my posts.

My main "beefs" with some of the names (those that do not represent a _facility_) are:

a) like already mentioned, there's no continuity in upgrades
take the example of the Feds, where you go from a Heavy Fabrication Plant (clearly a facility) to a Mass Replicator (an apparatus) - hmm?!
b) an apparatus that builds an entire facility
in the above example, the Mass Replicator builds Automated Farms and Universities
c) the apparatus is not a facility by definition
same example, when you build one or destroy one, it's kind of weird - your Mass Replicator was destroyed by orbital bombardment?! Your colony took a few turns to build a Mass Replicator?!

Also, with this scheme, we have 3 empires using the same top industry facility (Heavy Replicator - Cards, Klings and Roms). Thought it can be explained by canon, again this is not the TV show, and the game might not turn out (most likely will not) the same way (in terms of tech sharing/trading).
And we still need a new name for the top industry facility for minors - and since there's a host of minors, we can't go with them all using the same technology (if we go by the same approach mentioned in the previous paragraph).

That's why IMO using general names (not related to any technology in particular) would be best. The tech advancements are mentioned in the tech matrix, and you'll get notice when reaching a new tech level. They can be introduced in the game through Buildings instead of Production Facilities too (preferable only mentioning them in the description).

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Speaking of Buildings, the same applies to them too really. When you build or destroy say the Chalnoth Army or the Replimat, it doesn't make much sense.

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Just trying to keep the discussion going, not trying to press anything.

What I want before all else is the game to be finished.

Given that we will never be able to go through all this by committee I say make the changes as you see fit. It will upset some but to finish the game we need a workable scheme. As Mike has put you in charge of these changes that means you decide. Do it and put the results on SharePoint so we can adapt the images, models and descriptions to it. The sooner the better. The artistic content side of this project needs an authoritative data base to work from. Ask for help if you need it but in the end just make it so.

Yup I'm only brainstorming, anything that helps the game get done faster and makes it more useable and easier to understand is good in my books.

P.S.

I actually thought the Mass Replicator was a giant factory sized replicator that large pieces of buildings could be made from; If that isn't the case then yeah Iceman has a point. I also agree it's weird that some are buildings and some are machinery.

@Kenneth:
You and everybody else. This, however, is just a small part compared to everything else that's missing.
I'm just opening up the project a bit to the community, like we've done with art and sound. There's really little difference. Of course we have the final decision, but I'm interested in other opinions. Things will get done, don't worry.

@Kaladin:
Not really sure what it really is, the description says:
The Mass Replicator is finally here. Previously, minor parts and components were replicated and constructed separately in time-consuming processes by specialist engineers and nano-bots respectively. Mass Replicators allow for the production of entire pre-fabricated units in a single process however, virtually eliminating the time needed to produce complex materials and equipment. Industry will never be the same.
It just doesn't _sound_ like a facility to me. We also have a lot of replicator related structures like Basic Replicator, Advanced Replicator, Replicator Plants, Replimat, etc....

That description makes it sound like it is making a giant building all at once that can be shipped out, dropped and deployed/unfolded into a structure. They do make prefab buildings today (slightly differently) so it is not unreasonable to imagine it. Just the replicator facility would need to be pretty massive, heck why not call it "Mass Replicator Facility" then. I imagine it to be this giant open platform with 4 or so towers with arms, scanners and beams all down the side, sort of like a giant transporter pad in a way. I can see it resembling a shipbuilding dock only a planetary one that constructs buildings. There was an episode of Enterprise (“Dead Stop”) that had a repair station that was fixing enterprise using replication and repair arms, the catch was it was using catatonic people to power the computers, but something like that idea only for buildings.

My impression is that a Mass Replicator is a manufacturing device based on replicator technology. It would create any needed object and or device with less limitation of size as was present in earlier version of replicator technology. It would not be limited to making prefab buildings. The result is a new technologic level of manufacturing affording your empire to use against your opponent.

I agree that it is not just a structure but would be an improved device at new or existing manufacturing facilities. In this way it does not sound like just a facility in the game. For our game it sounds like it should function as a technologic breakthrough that upgrades manufacturing capacity. Perhaps it should be in the new science and technology we research. What do you think? It depends on what you want it or need it to do in game play.

Well it needn't be restricted to prefab buildings but I was implying the description made it capable of making them in addition to what it was doing before. Most Prefab buildings today are made in easy to assemble pieces, so it doesn't need to be super massive but rather just large.

I can picture the old ones making steel panels, making screws, making bolts, making tools. This new one makes an entire portion of the building with the bolts and screws already assembled. Now I took a liberty is using the words steel, screws, and bolts so don't shoot me for a non-cannon reference :). It seems as if it can just make larger more complex items with more pieces already assembled.

As to your comment on it being a technology that upgrades production, I can see it being that too, so it depends on what direction you want to head.

It might be what people's assumptions are for what is and what isn't a building. In other games some of them take liberties with what are considered building, in some cases they don't use physical things either (trade routes, martial law, etc.) and include things such as concepts with implementation costs that are buildable. Now I don't think we should head that direction but what you build needn't be restricted to something represented by a single building. Mass Replicators could be devices built and taken to all the previous factories. However back around to the original post; it sort of violates the consistency thing that Iceman was concerned about. I assume when you go from type 1 to type 2 they add new tech, tools and rooms to the existing buildings, so why mention Mass Replicators all of a sudden when none of the other upgrades were mentioned. In this case it might serve better as a tech upgrade or a specific building rather than a name down the path of upgrades for the Industrial PF.

That was *exactly* my concern/point/beef.

I think it is supposed to be a technology that upgrades production, you can se it in the sudden jump of industry output, but the question still stands, why should it be explicit, why should it be different than food or research (which has the Daystrom Institute - a Buildings, not a PF - for the Feds for example to mark an improvement).

As for other things that are not buildings, Martial Law is not a Building, it's a production item with no physical representation that provides a bonus. Trade routes are not Buildings either, but there are Buildings that increase the number of Trade Routes (trade centers and such).

What is the difference in how any building - structure and technology changes a major race’s economy? Is there a difference? If not the “mass replicator” could be either a structure - building or a technology based on how we imagine it working in the Star Trek fantasy universe. If there is a difference I would need to understand more about the way the game works.

Is there a flow sheet for how these parts work together? I guess Mike would have that outlined in his code by now. It would be nice to see it lined out as a flow sheet.

I hope that, in the interest of diversity of play, each major has stronger or weaker abilities in the individual parts on the flow sheet. A few special abilities like the cloak is clear. The names and images should change with race but presumable the relations follow the same pattern. I am thinking of War Craft. The races have different structures, strengths, appearance and abilities but the parts work together in the same predictable manner. I am sure Mike has that covered.

Can we decide how the “mass replicator” works based on what you need it to do for any given major race? When we know that we can make it a structure – building or technology and name it, give it data and an image that reflects our need.

The issue isn't really the relationship between the other races but rather between the PFs amongst the race itself (it is the naming convention, that is the issue).

Ok take Warcraft for example:
(Forgive me; this example is a bit difficult to work with)

You upgrade your town hall:
Town hall (type1) --> Keep(type2) --> Castle(type3)

Imagine it was like the mass replicator supremacy issue now:
Town hall (type1)--> Throne(type2) --> Castle(type3)

I think what Iceman is saying is that "mass replicator" isn't a logical upgrade; it doesn't follow the chain set out by the pattern presented. Additionally the other PFs in the same race sometimes change as well randomly.

What I think he is saying is make "Throne" (mass replicator) an additional separate item and not a PF. So instead you would go:

Automated Farm: Type1 --> Type2 --> Type3 --> Type4 ... --> Type11
Replication Plant: Type1 --> Type2 --> Type3 --> Type4 ... --> Type11
Plasma Reactor: Type1 --> Type2 --> Type3 --> Type4 ... --> Type11
University: Type1 --> Type2 --> Type3 --> Type4 ... --> Type11

Other races could have their own names, just so long as along the upgrade path it is consistent and logical. It is an ease of use thing, where it becomes easier to learn the system and to understand it; you sacrifice very little by doing this. As I mentioned earlier you could always add descriptions for each upgrade, where you can mention the changes and upgrades from the previous level.

This is what I was meaning by adding a description, where you could mention whatever you felt was needed for flavor and cannon reference (these are just examples, I'm not the greatest writer).

Type 1 Replication Plant
Description: This is the basic Federation production facility that allows for the construction needs of the system.

Type 2 Replication Plant
Description: Miniaturization of the machinery and their circuits has opened up floor room, increasing productivity.

Type 3 Replication Plant
Description: Improvements to the layout of the replication plant has yielded new improved efficiency.

Type 4 Replication Plant
Description: Additional power supplies and heavier machinery has increased throughput.

Type 5 Replication Plant
Description: The addition of a Mass Replicator has allowed for larger more complex materials and patterns to be made.

**WARNING** whatever you mention in the description should not also be something you intend to use as a tech upgrade or separate building. So should Mass Replicator become it own building or a technology that is researched, don't mention it in the descriptions.

I'm really glad you understand me perfectly Kaladin! I was thinking it was me not being able to explain things. The Throne example was spot on (I had mentioned the Guild, which was already changed).



Exactly. This "split" (from BotF) was a flavor kind of thing IMO, and it doesn't really add much to the game, on the contrary it complicates something simple - again, IMO. Hence my posting about it, I'd like to know if it's just me or if other players think the same.
I really like your idea about differentiated descriptions. The downside is having to write them, for all PF types / all races. We can use the same for all races I guess, it's not like it's something that affects gameplay, and most people will only look at the descriptions a couple of times.
The descriptions should in some way follow the tech matrix research area descriptions, so we can use those to take ideas for the texts.

As a side note, I think there are way too many tech levels (11). I think we should have less levels, and more meaningful improvements per level (higher output increases I mean). More levels requires constant upgrades, and more items to populate the tech matrix.



Right. The Feds do have a Replicator Plant, which I can't recall the tech level right now (4 or 5?), which is probably what the Mass Replicator should be. [BotF had the Federatoin Replicator at Ene 5] So it appears to be a duplication - in fact I mentioned "duplications" of effects in the database several times. I think the database currently tries to do too much.

Kind of related to this, currently in Supremacy we have all races have the same output for a given PF of the same level and type - a Type X farm produces the same food regardless of race. BotF had differentiated outputs according to race, and those strengths and weaknesses were made explicit in the races' descriptions (which Supremacy also has).
Now, the question is, should we keep it as is currently in Sup, or revert back to BotF's way?

The "problem" I see with BotF's implementation is when you annex or subjugate a system. If the Cards subjugate a Fed system, they can keep the better labs, with humans working on them. If the Feds subjugate a Card system, they get crappy labs, which they can convert to (better) Fed labs. In the latter case, after the conversion, the scientists working in the labs are the same, so the increase in output should be related to the equipment they're using, right? The scientists themselves are pretty much the same for all empires, AND all empires use the exact same tech matrix, with the same breakthroughs and the same research costs.
Same thing applies to farms, industry and reactors of course.

I think the current implementation is ok, as it doesn't require you to be upgrading some of the PFs when subjugating and annexing. It doesn't however mirror the strengths and weaknesses of each empire as per their description - though they are / can be implemented through Buildings instead of Production Facilities.
I'm inclined to keep it as is, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

My personal response would be to stick to BOTF's way of doing things, and it's always been that way. When I originally implemented the facilities in the game, I differentiated them for that exact same reason, although that was later changed by someone else...

I've only known them as they are now (minus a few _fixes_ I've made). If it wasn't me, and it wasn't you, it must have been Q...

Actually if you kept all races PFs the same you could just add a racial bonus across the board, making changing buildings a non-issue.

If for example:

Feds have 10 manned universities at 10 points each thats a raw 100 research. If you gave the Feds a +10% research bonus they would have 110 research. It would be the same as giving them 11 per type 1 university.

Now lets say the Cards come and take over, they get 10 universities; however because they are unfamiliar with the equipment, don't have the federation lead scientists, have different research policies, and the layout is foreign they don't benefit from the “better” universities (no racial). They would get 10 points per manned type 1 university on the captured planet.

That is one way to keep both the research advantage but yet reduce complication of taking over planets, it also allows for better control of bonuses (its easier to compare across the board of each rank of PF to each race)

I will say one thing, having to rebuild PFs for your own race could be fun, especially if there were some penalties for using the wrong race's PFs or some advantage for salvaging enemy PFs. It would add another element of strategy, rewards/costs and etc to the game. The drawback to the game would be that it adds complication, if you can for example implement it in a way were it is easy to understand and see then I say go for it, because it could be really fun. It would give me a reason to for example seek out and take over a high tech planet, rather than just bomb the heck out of them. Complication isn’t something to be feared, if it is done right and in a way that is fun, it can add depth to a game, but simplicity has its rewards too.

The Feds already get better resesarch through Buildings (their Simulators are better than the Klingons' and Cardassians' for example, and they have more research bonuses). Having both implementations (racial bonus and Buildings) would be a bit too much I think.

If the Cards capture a Fed system, the system will still be inhabited by humans though. They may however not be very cooperative which could account for the lower output. If it's the reverse though, the Feds capturing a Card system, there's no lower output.

Taking systems for their PFs, well, the difference between outputs is not that large, and if the labs are better, the other PFs are not (there isn't one empire that is better at every production type).
Right now you don't have to rebuild PFs, you can upgrade from say a Fed lab 4 to a Card lab 5. Which might be a problem since it might actually not be advantageous - the Fed lab 4 might have higher output than the Card lab 5. Well, not much of a problem really.
The problem I see is in a Card controlled human system the human workers building Card PFs for the humans to work in and get food from and whatnot.

Yeah not both, I was meaning do one or the other. Just trying to brainstorm the advantages/disadvantages of both methods.