Since this is my first post I first want to say thanks to the guys in the dev team for all the hard work and effort put into this. If the finished game gets even more addictive than the alpha I'll probably wont stray far from my computer if I can help it.
Now to my suggestion: Something that bugged me already in BotF was the fact that in a random game you could encounter say the Selay but never even find a trace of their dreaded Antican enemy - let alone find these mortal enemies in neighbouring system where they could actually have encountered each other.
That was always a immersion problem at least for me. Now of course you could edit their database entries to remove any hint of the other species, but that might not always be feasible. For example the race-specific buildings of the Ornaran(?)/Brekkian duo are based on their mutual history.
If it is not too much effort in terms of coding it would be a nice feature if these 'linked' minor races only occur together and in neighbouring systems. Besides the Selay/Anticans and the Ornarans/Brekkians the same issue occurs with the T'Lani/Tellerun, the Vori/Kradin and probably some other races.
Another minor suggestion would be a database entry for the Founders/Changelings that would appear if you play the Dominion/discover the Omarion Nebula.

Hello and welcome to the forums.

I'm glad you enjoyed the alpha and I'm sure you'll enjoy the upcoming update (just don't ask when it will be released)

As for this problem there will be a canon map to play with all races, homesystems, empires... placed as in the series, but in the standard random placement game this won't be implemented.

Very similar, almost identical issue was discussed a while ago and we came to the conclusion that the redesign of the random generator was not worth the benefits.

Welcome Rake

hmm, too bad but I see the problem with the random generator. So would this canon map be even larger than the 'huge' random map since even in that map not all minor species are present?

Possibly, it is not yet defined.

Hello Rake. Interesting idea, but just as Vjeko said: Not worth the efford.

That's a shame. It used to bother me too. Especially when the Vulcans would end up so far from the Federation that they became part of the Klingon Empire (willingly?) or the Ferengi Alliance. I am sure this has been said before.

It should be logical Bashir

Well that's the point of random generator. However, I too want Star Trek based canon map as a playing option.

/nod. I think that if you have a random generator, it should be a random generator at this point.


Perhaps in the future you could create some seed patterns that would place a group of things in a cluster, so instead of generating a random tile, you would randomly select from a group of 3x3 tiles to ensure that certain things are put next to each other, like a wormhole next to Bajor etc.


As for this canon map, I see you have a tile set so is anyone working to develop the "canon" map or is this an avenue I could pursue?


I don't know if I'd crack open the editor but I could just create a coordinate system and "random fill" the gaps in between. The new Star Trek Online has a great system map that puts everything more-or-less in canonical location.

There are a couple of canon maps made in excel, I think they were posted to the forums a long time ago. I have them in my HD.

How were they made in excel? Just coordinates or did they actually use tiles or what?

Could you send one to me as I'm hoping it would be an excellent starting point, or if it's complete I can just work on updating it with info from STO

They were made by a guy called Zulnak. He just coloured in the cells to represent sectors. Quite easy really, but it must have been extremely time consuming.

I've zipped up the files for you - there are three in total. One is an Alpha-Quadrant one, the second is a Galaxy one, and the third is a database he made of everything involving the minor races that we intend to include in the game - their ships including full stats, the special structures they can build, everything. He even included a combat resolver so you can see which ships would win against each other, and how many turns they would make. It's a mind-blowing piece of work. Note that he made it several years ago though, so whilst the ships and their stats are all correct (Since there haven't been any changes to the shiplist in a few years) the tab that contains information about the structures the minor races can build is completely out of date. Zulnak unfortunately disappeared a long while ago.

Download @ 354.49KB

Well thats a great map and kudos to zulnak and others involved in its creation. If we consider the star trek star charts to be canon there are several more systems with minor races whose position we know and which could be included in this map. For example the denobulans, klaestrons, xyrillians or algolians could be added, just to name a few.

Congratulations, it looks like you found a job.

Sure, why not Maybe some others lurkers want to contribute as well? Do you already have a fixed list of minor races you want to include in the next release? That would be helpful for updating the canon map.

Short of looking in the game XML files you could us this on SharePoint (Minor Race Emblems) to get the race names
here
Matress or Iceman may have a better source. I am not sure if Mike and Iceman have not removed from, chaned or added to this list over time.

I would think the random generator could be programmed to randomly generate within smaller tiled areas, moving from one area to another over the whole map with a list of what potentially should go within the smaller area. The old BOTF, did not (and presumably could not because there were too many) put all the races on the map when it generated a new game.

There could be four selections or possibilities

1) Completely random (for variety playability)
2) Random within quadrants (the correct races in the correct galaxy quadrants)
3) Canon Random (within quadrants the correct races are closer together but randomly placed) - not sure how much variety this would actually create, especially in smaller maps. May not be necessary compared to number 4 below.
4) Randomly select from 5 - 10 predesigned "canon" map plans - the difficulty here is accounting for different map sizes.

I'm still adding a few more minors. We should have close to 170 or so in the end.

Okay, then maybe you can post a definite list once you are finished and I get to work on the map;)

I worked a bit on Zulnaks map and added several minor races and made sure all minor races are indicated by a black background. I didn't work on the delta quadrant because I'd like to get your input first whether you want to keep Zulnaks 'labyrinth' version or switch to a more conventional design of the quadrant.
I added my changes only to the galaxy spreadsheet so you can compare it to the original by switching to the indivual quadrant spreadsheets.
Additional races I included in the first draft are the Akaali, Xyrillians, Orions, Klaestrons and Yridians on their canon positions and labelled several other systems as minor race positions. While the Torothans, Angelites and Peliar Zelites are currently not in the list you provided, Kenneth, I included them in case they will be added as minor races (there are several others such as the kobheerians that could also be indicated on the map if you want). While there is no canonical information on where the Skrreean homeworld is located I placed them close to the T-Rogoran World as they were conquered by the T-Rogorans. Similarly the only information we have about the Cytherians is that they are located near the galactic center - I placed them in the gamma quadrant portion of the galactic center as the gamma quadrant has the lowest number of minor races.
One issue with Zulnak map is that the alpha/beta quadrant part is oriented on the star trek star charts and cover only part of the space known to the federation - the mintakans, sheliak, bandi, anticans, selay and gorn have all kown positions but are currently outside the borders of the map - I could either expand the map to eg 100x100 (which would still not allow for a strictly canonical representation, but give me more space to work with) or add them in the relatively empty space beyond cardassian and breen space or the federation territory beyond romulan space.
A lot of alpha/beta quadrant minor races included in the xml files have no canonical location in the star charts (at least I couldn't find any more) but for several you could extrapolate their approximate position. I also found a great map which is however most likely not even canon for the extended universe where many new minor races are listed. I added this map as well - if you are okay with it, I could use this map to position additional races on our canon map.

It would be helpful to have a list of things like this on SharePoint.
Do we have an up to day list of Minor Races, Ships for Minor Races, descriptions of Ships....?
I have the ship models on SharePoint but do not know if it is up to date.

Nice map work

Guys, i have looked a those maps and I am absolutely amazed by the work done! Man, this must have taken some time. I have to say that this really rises my expectations and hopes for this game immensely. Canon maps...guys, when games reaches beta, I will spend some nights with it for sure

Here is a 100x80 map with a lot more minor races - I tried to extrapolate their approximate position by information given about them and when they first appeared with regards to the timeline of TNG, ENT, or DS9. This is still pretty speculative so if you have a suggestion for an alternative position I'd be glad to implement that. If you want to, I can tell you my reasoning for placing this or that race at its current position.
I'm still somewhat at a loss as to where I can place the Corvallens, Chalnoth, Dremans, Excalbians, Horta and Vorgons, so feel free to suggest something
I increased the size of the map somewhat but for the 'outlying' species some adjustments had to be made - I placed the Sheliak at a position where they could actually have a border conflict as described in TNG. The Bandi had to be placed closer to the rest of the known alpha/beta quadrant but I separated them from the breen via the helical nebula. The Gorn are located 'south' of the klingon empire at the far end of the beta quadrant - I placed the aldeans and mintakans next to them even if at least the mintakans are located much farther beyond the klingon borders. Likewise the Tamarians should probably be placed at a greater distance but as I think it's an acceptable compromise between map size and canon.
If you have some ideas for star systems to fill up the tholian territory, the area beyond the lurians, the southern reaches of the federation and klingon empire and the beta quadrant federation territory I'll be glad to include them.
As before, I didn't work on the delta quadrant (which I'd prefer to rebuilt from scratch) and changed only the galaxy spreadsheet - I left the space between the original gamma quadrant and the new border with the alpha quadrant empty to increase the distance between the Dominion and the other powers and increase the strategic value of the Bajoran Wormhole, but that can of course be changed.

Here's the list of minors. This is a part of one of my files, the ones in red will not be implemented as minors, and some of the others have not been implemented yet (for one reason or another).

Thanks as well. That helps.

I'm still alive and frequently check-up the community pages and forums. The only difference is that I'm not always log-in into the account. So you guys don't see me online. I'm still trolling around the different projects -- Birth of the Empire (BotE), armadafleetcommand (original BotF modding), and so forth...! Beside: there are some nice breakthrough for higher resolutions. (@Matress_of_Evil: You don't pm me to ask. May thats the reason I disappeared. You have a littl' offline-time too -- isn't it that you removed place of residence or something like this?!)

Yeah, okay, I have alot more to handle with my job. Times proceed for all of us and main focus turn into more down-to-earth things. Back in the days the order was: 1. hobby, 2. hobby, 3. hobby ... 5. school/professional training; and to-day its more like: 1. family/girlfriend/wife, 2. job, 3. job ... 99. hobby. I hope you get what I wanne say. One thing have not changed -- my bad English skills. It's still a mix of school-english, movies, urban-music slang. :-)

I feel honoured that my sheets are still in some peoples mind. I take a look into the download and realize that it's a old version of my privat - own one. I can't remember when I send this files to Matress_of_Evil. But I know that my version include a better Delta-Quadrant. I also fix some issues with Alpha-Minor-Races and there locations. Mostly I rework this map many times because there a lot of "half-canon" galactical maps out there in the web. mostly some locations in the Klingon Empire are different from source to source. I definitely remember that my own map have Denobula, Son'A (the Tarlac and the Ellora), the route of the USS Voyage through the Delta-Quadrant (mostly of the top of my head) and some other scenario (like Cardassian-Dominion invation). Perhaps it shapeshift to mutch into a fan-made of my own stuffiness at work/job. :-P

We understand about the job. Work when you can as we do.

I upload a newer version of map. It's a .zip file that contain 2 different .xls files. Can't remember which is the newer. Both are over two years old.

The file named "... #1" contain a small and a large version of a fully galaxy map with all four quadrants. It's mostly a build - template/pattern of this map. Minor-Race special-buildings are also mentioned -- just hover over the system. Also some well-known space-stations are with-in.

The file named "... #2" contain three sheets with different maps. The one called "Galaxy" isn't that different from maps you already know of (me). It's just show some dalliance... don't know why. The second is called "Canon" is much bigger then all the other work I done. I felt the scale of some distance aren't correct in the older versions. Especially the most known region/area around "Sol". Thats the reason I start this bigger map -- back then. The circles and squares help me to check the distances. Looks a littl' bit silly.

Use 'Ctrl' / 'Strg' and your mouse-wheel to scroll/zoom in and out.

Download @ (552.27 KB)

Hey Zulnak, nice to see you around again mate!

I started a new job back in March; my free time has fallen considerably as a result which is why i'm no longer posting in the volumes I used to. I did also have a computer mishap a year or two ago; I lost the most recent version of your maps at the time, but I still had the older versions backed up which is why I posted them now. It's nice to have an update. I hope you'll enjoy our own update, when the times come that we decide it is ready for public release.

Thanks Zulnak