I was wonder how will look like fight with Outpost or Starbase? In BOTF I they were very weak and had short range (only klingon Starbase was stronger) and in confrontation with advance romulan ships had no chance to win.

Did yo discuss this topic somwhere on the forum?

Starbases and Outposts are massive structures - and this should be reflected in their power. They should have extremely high stats, and nothing short of an Armada would be able to obliterate them, but they should also be difficult to build and maintain.

They should truly be huge structures - remember the Trek film (Not sure which one) where the Enterprise docks inside of the Starbase?

Not only was the Enterprise in there, but the Excelsior was in there, as well as several other ships. You also have to remember that the section of the base that they were docked in, was just the top 'saucer' section (For want of a better word) - vertically, this is just a small fraction of the overall height of the Station.

I remember SonOfMogh telling me that Outposts/Stations/Bases will have an 'evolution'. Basically, you would initially build a small Science Station, then you would upgrade it to an outpost, then a Defense Station, and so on, until you end up with the sort of Leviathan of a Base that I am on about.

If a Planet is going to be filling the screen, then I doubt it would be much of a Problem making Bases that are truly huge as well, but of course, it will be up to the programmers to decide these things.

The way I see it, a Station/Outpost/Base would have huge amounts of shielding and hull. However, in the smaller stations, the amount of hull would still be relatively low. By the time they have reached an Outpost level, there should be quite a jump in the structural strength of the hull (Since Outposts are more likely to see battle than a Science Station is) and a similar large increase would occur by the time it reaches a Starbase level.

Stations/Outposts/Bases would have some of the best weapons arcs available, since they don't need to worry about hitting their own Nacelles, or any 'sticking out' sections of the structure (Well, for most Federation Stations anyway)

The weapons would physically have a much higher range than typical Starship-grade weapons, since they would be more powerful, larger, and would have a greater power supply, than on a Starship.

Perhaps the weapons themselves could physically look different - like in Starfleet Command, there are white Starbase-grade phaser 4's, as well as Red/Yellow/Purple Starship-grade phasers 1,2,3, and G. I know that there will be new weapons in the game, so I doubt this would be too much of a challenge to the graphics people.

Stations would also recharge their shields at a phenomenal rate (Since they would have massive shield generators, would have room to have the generator in high numbers, and would have huge power production facilites) however, they would not be able to make many effective repairs to the hull, (During battle) since they are such huge structures. It would take time and resources to fully repair a Station of any kind (If you decide you want to fully repair it - you may not have the resources to repair a particularly massive station, or one that basically needs to be rebuilt from scratch)

I think that a station would serve as a 'gathering point' for your officers though. Any system that has a station in it should receive a slight increase in the number of recruits that you get per turn, because your officers would gather at such places during shore leave etc. and people would hear magnificent stories of what your officers do in space (Whether it is fighting or discovering some new race/anomaly/technology) They are also 'communications hubs', allowing transmissions to be directed to nearby ships etc. so people would gather there for news, trading etc.

The final advantage of a Station would be its' sensor grid. Stations would have the best sensors available (Since they are intended to constantly scan an entire sector of space, for signs of enemy ships, anomalies, pirates etc.

This would mean it would have the best sensors available, and would most likely have anti-cloak sensors (If you have them) This would negate the annoying tactics of the Romulans, who would run into a Starbase, and fly off before you could react. Of course, the AI will be better as well, but pobodies' nerfect, there could still be...teething problems.

I think you misunderstood about the bases Matress. I personally thought an Outpost becoming a Starbase is unrealistic. I always though if you wanted to build a Starbase in a sector with an Outpost, you'd have to build an entirely new structure, although it would cost less as there will be resources which can be taken from the Outpost.

I also have a different opinion on Starbases. I believe the standard Starbase should be the Starbase 375 type, which could be powerful enough to fight off 15 or more powerful enemy vessels. The Spacedock structure you describe would be a far more costly version, absolutely massive as you describe.

In terms of power. All bases should carry the same photons as the ships of the fleet, but have incredibly advanced launchers, and lots of them. The phasers would always be stronger than the strongest starship, with plently of coverage. Shields should be incredible, as Matress said.

Oh god I just read the bit about purple phasers! When did DS9 ever fire purple phasers???! Crazy.

The science station isn't a lesser version of an outpost, it serves a totally different purpose and should perhaps be more resource intensive.

The Depot was proposed as a mere refuelling station within Federation borders.

Check out the Things We All Agree On thread.

Re-read the post SonOfMogh! I was on about StarFleet Command! Not DS9!

And anyway, if DS9 followed Starfleet Command, it would have white phasers, not purple ones!

The purple phaser is meant to be a Gattling phaser - useful for taking out incoming missiles and other seeking weapons, but otherwise useless. (So i doubt it would be included in BOTF2, even if people said they liked it!

Sorry about my misinterpretation of the bases though, SonOfMogh, i've obviously been cutting corners, becuase the TWAOO thread is huge.

Ah well, i'm just gonna have to start reading it in full, I suppose.

I read your post mate. Was using DS9 as an example as it's the only base we've seen firing in any show, and it had normal coloured phasers. I take it Starfleet command is a game then? I hope to god we don't see purple/white phasers in the game! I feel comfortable we won't though.

The TWAAO isn't confirmed yet, I guess it could be totally different in the game.

Oh...err...yes, SonOfMogh, I was on about a game. I didn't think that someone would be confused by my posts, but I understand now how you were confused.

Basically, Starfleet Command is a Star trek game, set around the time of Kirk and the Organians.

The game is really boring, until you get into the fighting part of the game. That is when it gets good.

There is a massive range of weapons: -
Phaser types 3 - A weak defensive weapon and is red in colour.

Phaser G - A gattling phaser which can take out seeking weapons easily, since it fires up to four times with one charge. It is purple in colour, and has the same offensive strength as a phaser 3.

Phaser 2 - An offensive/defensive weapon, that is more powerful than a Phaser 3, and has a much greater range. It is orange in colour.

Phaser 1 - An offensive weapon, and is the most powerful of ship-based phasers. It is yellow in colour, and also has the highest range of the ship-based phasers.

Phaser 4 - An offensive weapon, that can only be used on stations (Unless you mod the game) It has the highest range, and causes the most damage of the phasers. A single hit from a phaser 4 at point blank range can do the same amount of damage as 3 phaser one hits. It is white in colour.

Photons - obvious.

Hellbore - A weapon that wraps itself around the entire ship, causing damage to all six of the shield arcs. Because of the way it is designed, the most damage will be incurred by the weakest shield.

Plasmas - A seeking weapon, that can cause huge amounts of damage. They have a limited range however, and quickly lose power, over distance. There are six types of plasma, ranging from violet fighter-based plasma, to defensive ship-based plasma-I's, weak ship-based green plasma-F, yellow plasma-G's, Orange plasma-S, and the purely destructive red plasma-R.

Disruptor - obvious.

Plasmatic pulsar device (PPD) - A beam 'seeks' out an enemy ship, and once a lock-on has occurred (Which may not occur) three waves of destructive energy travel to the target. This energy spread out along the three shields that it hits (Or two, depending on where it hits) causing damage equivalent to a photon, per wave.

Fusion beams - A blast of charged hydrogen gas is emitted at close range to a target, which then ignites. They do damage equivalent to an overloaded photon at point blank range. These weapons have a suicide overload setting, which allows you to completely overload the weapon, causing damage equivalent to a plasma, but the weapon is obviously destroyed in the process.

Expanding sphere generator (ESG) - This weapon is highly unusual, since it is both offensive and defensive. A sphere of destructuve energy surrounds the ship, destroying all seeking weapons, before they impact with the ship. It can also be used to 'ram' an enemy during a close flyby. This weapon has an unusual reaction with the Hellbore, and if a Hellbore come into contact with a working ESG, the ESG generators take severe damage - even if shields are up.

Missiles - obvious.

The pics of ships that I have made for the unusual ships thread have been made by using the print screen button, whilst I am in the tactical screen of Starfleet Command 2, if you want to know.

Oh ok, that makes sense.

I'm pretty sure the aim of this game is to create a realistic surrounding so that the player's immersed in the trek universe. I'd say the weapons you mention would ruin that somewhat, although the game is moddable so I guess anything's possible. I'd rather stations just had more torpedo launchers and heavier batteries.

A thought on starbases, if I may.

The big starbases (not SB 375, but SB 74) should provide a bonus to starship production in the system. I mean, an instalation like that has to have some big-time industrial replicators, don't you agree?

http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GStbGenral2.jpg SB 74

And how about using McKinely station schematic as somekind of repair station? Or at least only in orbit around Earth as a special repair bonus?

http://www.ditl.org/gpgm/GMckinley1.jpg Earth Station McKinley

(pictures are from http://www.ditl.org )

Very good ideas mate. I was actually toying with the Spacedock/Starbase74 type having some construction capability, what do you think? I think the 375 type would just have good repair facilities and heavy weapons.

I guess McKinley could be cool, don't know if it should just be a bonus, rather than a station. It's just there'll already be a spacedock in that system.

Thanks for the padd on the back

I have a question on the repairs? Will they be done regardless of the number of ships in need of repair? I mean, if it's one ship, it can fit into the hangar of a SB 375, and we know even DS9 had trouble orgainising repair schedules. (I remember Kira and Worf debated if a Romulan warbird or Martok's ship had repair priority).
The point of what is said is: ONE ship can simply be docked in for efficeint repairs. Should this be in the game? Or should all ships be repaired at the same rate (regardless of the number). The former is more realistic, but the latter is less complicated?

I'd have to say that for simplicity, all ships sharing a sector with a starbase would repair quicker, as in botf. Having said that, if it's possible I'd like each station to have a number of vessels it can repair at once. A starbase could do 4 or 5, a spacedock 7 or 8. Once a ship is repaired the base can start work on another.

I don't know quite how big the SB 375 hangar is, but a Jem Hadar attacker only barely fits. Given this fact, even a ship as small as a Defiant might struggle. I'd say such a station would beam repair crews onto ships to start work on them.

Yes, best to keep things simple on the repair level.

You're right, it is a small hangar. http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/G375Defiant1.jpg don't think he could fit...

This is something I just thought of, tell me what you think (of the concept itself):

Sol should have improved repair capabilities (it is the domain of the Core of Engineers, after all): Maybe make a special building (for the Home system of Sol only) called "Sol Orbital Drydocks" (we saw the one that the refit Enterprise was docked in, ES McKinley, surely drydocks exist over Utopia Planitia) Say it costs 150 energy, and gives you +6 ship repaired/turn. Then fleets would return to Sol and the neighbouring systems because of Sol's capability to to exercise swift repairs.

A home system, in my opinion, should have SOMETHING that makes your fleets return to it anytime, not only when the enemy attacks it, right? You return to your homesystem because it holds the best your empire has to offer. The Federation Council, the Daystome Institute and the best engineers and repair crews in the Quadrant!

(got a little carried away, sorry... )
Whatever you think, say it.

I had always imagined the Starbase 75 type as being the 'standard' for Starbases, while the 374 type was an advanced outpost. (Or a light Starbase, if such a thing exists)

The film that I was on about though, was definitely a 75 type one though, right? These stations should have minor starship building abilities (Perhaps if they were based in a system without a shipyard, you would be able to build only science/colony/troop ships? I don't know how difficult this would be to program though.

Instead, perhaps the base itself could have a small dropdown tab, that has a build science etc. option. These bases would build the ship at a slower rate than a shipyard would be capable of, but in times of war, it may be that ships is what ya need!

I agree with the homesystem having the best ship construction abilities, and i'm pretty sure that the other major races have their best facilities in the home system - well except the Romulans. I heard that their best ones' were at a place called Valdera prime - a place that I have never heard of in a canon episode of trek by the way, so I cannot verify this.

On another point, whatever happens, I think that the special structures box is going to have to be expanded - Sol looks like it is going to be chock full of new structures, and the other races are almost certainly going to have more as well.

I also like the idea of having the Starfleet Corps of Engineers - if they had a building, would they produce say a bonus of 10% repair, or 20%, 50% etc? Would they also have an effect on ship building?

I believe the Federation would need some sort of boost to their ship building ability, since the Dominion is able to build ships at roughly twice the speed of the Federation, although this is mainly because the Federation put more into individual ships (Like science, shields, computers...)

And what happened to the San Francisco yards? They were mentioned in the Kirk era films, but haven't been mentioned since. Were they abandoned in favour of Earth Station Mckinley/Utopia Planitia? I've been wondering about this for a while now.

We've only ever seen 2 massive starbases. Spacedock from the movies and Starbase 74. I personally think they're extremely rare. Think of the resources involved in building one, they are larger than some countries.

I'd say the vast majority are DS9 sized, things like Starbase 375 etc etc.

It's already been said that you can build more than one shipyard in a system. I guess 3 is enough for sol, most good systems would probably just have 1.

Actualy there are two more. SB 133 and Lya Station Alpha.

About the shipyards, we know Sol has Utopia, Matress_of_Evil mentioned the San Francisco yards, so there could be one more.

Forgot about those. I consider myself out-trekked.

Dont forget about Jupiter Station...

Yeah, let's not go overboard.

Sol has;

*Spacedock (enormous starbase)

*3 Shipyards (that takes into account Utopia, San Fransisco etc)

*Special structures.


I doubt we can have the 3D space combat littered with various stations. Obviously we can't subdivide the sectors into individual planets. This is probably how it'll end up.

But, you can't buld her as a star base.
She is uniqe.

As fits the thorne of the Federation.

Starbase 133 must be the biggest thing that the Federation has got. Compare the pictures if you don't believe me!

Lya Station Alpha


Starbase 133


The sheer size of Starbase 133 is the kind of size that I was imagining for the Spacedock structure. Of course this is the 'final' structure, so it is going to have the best shields, the best weapons...oh and it's going to have minor ship production capabilities. (Possibly)

We have worked out pretty much what Stations and the like will be available in Sol, as well as throughout the rest of Federation space now. Why don't we concentrate on what the other races will have? Or is that for another thread?

I just want to know what my Tal Shiar Operatives will have to play with, that's all...

(Oh, and yes, I do know that Starbase 74 and 133 are the same - they reused the same footage - oh, and they used it for Spacedock as well, they just apparently shrunk it down. What gets me though, is that how is the Ent-D able to dock with a structure that was only just able to accomodate the Ent-0?

Lya Station Alpha, Earth spacedock, SB133 and SB 74 are all the same class (some tend to leave out the spacedock claming it is similar in apperance, but bigger in size)
I thought they could either be a separate little shipyard, or aid in faster construction of ships in real shipyards (replicating parts and not assembing them, but delivering them where they are needed!)

The other races' buildings are discused in the "Systems and building thread".

(btw, Matress, your pictures aren't showing!)

Got the pics going now. I *somehow* pasted the links backwards, as in
gpj.331esabratS/suidyolF/702v/smubla/moc.tekcubotohp.gmi//:ptth

I haven't got a clue as to how this happened, but it just goes to show that my computer is really on the fritz now!

(Ah well, not too much longer, you stupid bucket of bolts...)

Spacedock, Lya Station Alpha, Starbase 74 and Starbase 133 are clearly the same class and therefore must have the same dimensions. If one was larger than ther other they'd no doubt be of an entirely different design. I think in the pics you show, Lya is quite far away from the Enterprise, obviously 133 is far closer.

I propose that design be the biggest starbase, known as a spacedock. Available from movie period onward but not really uildable on a large scale until around Ambassador tech.

I'd say the avarage Starbase would be the SB 375 type from DS9.

I said SOME people, not me; I agree with you.

So, Spacedock - large design, enormous repair capability, weapons and shields like the Edo Gurdian (you know what I mean), and maybe construction capabilites,
read: E X P E N S I V E

SB 375 design - Standard outpost,standard repair and refuel, weapons equivalent to... Sovereign class?

Are there any objections? (stupid question, of course there are... )

My only objection is that I think SB 375 can hold her own. It was the staging place for most of the Dominion War and the base of Admiral Ross. I'd say it should be around the strength of 5-10 Galaxy class ships at least. It should be the generic starbase.

Spacedock should be ultra rare and very expensive. I see a Spacedock as being the control centre of 10 or more Starbases, just as starbases are the control centre of several fleets. It should be around 5 times as strong as a Starbase.

An Outpost would be smaller, around Galaxy class standard at best, possibly weaker.


If you look at Spacedock realistically, it must have a population in the thousands. It's genuinely a country in it's own right!

Spacedock - SB 74 design
Standard starbase - 375 SB
Outpost - what's the design?
Also what's the design for a resuply station?

Unless, I got it wrong?

That's the way I'd like it, what does anyone else think?

I'd say an outpost could have the Regula 1 design.

The Depot (if it's included) could be a new design. To be fair, do we need the depot? As the Outpost will be small and numerous.

Works for me. I thought it was already decided to have them as well.

How about this for the new design?