Could the class names evolve as the tech level increases?
I know that that would be a lot to program, but as ships evolve, their classification seems to become demoted as they age. For example; the Ambassador class likely began life as an 'Explorer', but after the Galaxy class supplemented it it was relegated to the role of 'Heavy Cruiser'. The same could really be said for the Excelsior class, which would have started out as either a heavy cruiser or a dreadnought, but is now probably along the lines of a medium cruiser.

Okay, the more I think about this, the dumber my idea sounds. If anyone wants to discuss it, great, but I'm not sure anymore!

I'll re-post my suggested ship list, and see what you think. BTW - do we know all of the other races, yet? I thought we had discussed the Romulans and the Klingons (to some extent), but what about the Cardassians, and the Dominion? (let's fix the Ferengi - if they are a minor race, they still deserve some ships - if only so we can kill them off)

So we could have for the Federation:
(I'll try to have this make more sense than my other ship posts)
The * shows either when a ship first appears, and when a newer version appears.

In the beginning (2150-2250):
NX era ships
*other (slower) Earth ships (roughly destroyers)
*NX = Surveyor
*Daedalus = Cruiser

TOS-era (2250-2280something)
-surviving NX = surveyor - scrap them and replace with...
*Saladin= Surveyor (Connie saucer with one nacelle hanging from the bottom - from TOS Tech Manual ) - see note 2
-surviving Daedalus - cruiser - see note 2
*Constitution = Heavy Cruiser
*Miranda = Destroyer -you get it last, right before...

TOS-movies etc. (2285-2340)
*Oberth =surveyor
-Miranda = Destroyer
*Constitution Refit = Heavy Cruiser
*Excelsior = Explorer
*Constellation = Cruiser

pre-TNG-era (2340-2360)
*Oberth II - surveyor
*Miranda II - destroyer
-New Orleans - Frigate (just reminding you that it exists...)
-Constellation II - Cruiser
*Excelsior II - Heavy Cruiser (note demotion)
*Ambassador - Explorer

TNG-era (2360-2370)
-Oberth II - surveyor (being phased out)
*Nova - surveyor - see note 3
-Miranda II - destroyer (being phased out)
*Steamrunner - Destroyer (late, just before 2370) - see note 3
-Excelsior II - Heavy Cruiser (slowly being phased out)
(*?)Ambassador (II ?) - Heavy Cruiser (note demotion) - see note 1
*Nebula - Heavy Cruiser
*Galaxy - Explorer

DS9-era etc. (2370-present)
-Nova - Surveyor
-Steamrunner - Destroyer
*Defiant - Escort
-surviving Excelsiors and Ambassadors - cruisers
*Intrepid - Cruiser
*Akira - Heavy Cruiser
-Nebula II - Heavy Cruiser
-Galaxy II - Explorer
*Sovereign - Explorer
*Prometheus - Ubership (I've heard Tactical Cruiser, Attack Cruiser, etc.)

I don't know if the whole demotion thing would work, but otherwise you are going to have a lot of things called "Explorers", and even more "Heavy Cruisers". I suppose that for example the Excelsior I could be an Explorer, but the Excelsior II (please with the Ent-B/Lakota modifications!!!) would be a Cruiser, because newer ships would be called 'Explorers'.

1. Should we have an upgrade for the Ambassador at all? In the canon we hardly ever see any, and no evidence of upgrading or refitting! (I know of three or four - I really think that newer ships would supplant it nicely, this is already an extremely busy tech tree!)

2. The Saladin Class is seen in the TOS Tech Manual, and different versions could operate as either a surveyor or a destroyer. I don't think that there should be Daedalus class ships in TOS (none were is service according to canon), so here is another idea. There is also a 'proto-Miranda' that could be the cruiser, but if that were there, then it could refit at around 2280 and because of the new, heavier ships (Constitution Refit, Constellation, and Excelsior) it would only be a Destroyer.

3. There is a strong case within the non-canon that the Steamrunner/Akira/Nova generation of ships were built immediately after the Galaxy, but well before the Sovereign. This is argued using registry numbers (go to <http://trekmania.net> for a more detailed and far better argument than I can make) I suppose we don't see them in TNG because they are under construction and trials, or are already serving on the front lines of the Cardassian Wars. We also know for a fact that the Equinox was stranded even before the Voyager, meaning that the Nova class must be older than the Intrepid. (Also, there is some evidence that the Nova was a pathfinder design for the Defiant, but apparently they found it an inadequate tactical platform, but an ideal science vessel, so it makes sense to put it a generation earlier to reflect this development)

Sorry this is so long - I just wanted to get my ideas out in one post....okay, 3. Make that four, if I can think of other classes.....

You're going to have to get in contact with jigalypuff to see exactly what ships will be in the game. I personally don't know what ships will be in, other than the obvious ones such as the Galaxy, Sovereign, Prometheus, and the like.

I agree with how you have placed the ships, (With explanations) and i'd also like to mention the fact that the Intrepid class was an offshoot of the Sovereign class development project.

Voyager was only the third ship of the Intrepid class to actually be built, and Voyager was serving as a field testbed for the Bioneural circuitry that was going to be the standard data network of the Sovereign class.

This brings in futher evidence that (As you say) the Nova was around far before the Voyager was even a twinkle in her designers' eye.

On top of that, wasn't Voyager only launched a matter of days/weeks before it was sent to the badlands? Seeing as it was only the third ship of the class, it must be an extrememly modern design. (Also evidenced by Paris's various comments about piloting the most advanced ship in the fleet)

...

For the eras, I assume also that you are grouping the VGR and NEM eras into the DS9 era?

Perhaps splitting this era into the VGR/DS9 era, and the NEM eras would help separate the ships more evenly, seeing as there are so many ships in the final era?

If this was done, then the Defiant, Intrepid, and Akira would come around in the DS9 era, and the Sovereign and Prometheus would be in the NEM era.

...

Now...the class of the Prometheus. That is a bit of a challenge. If a class wasn't mentioned in the episode, then perhaps something like an 'attack cruiser' would work. However, this is not an actual class of ship. The type list that we came up with was a list of known Starfleet classes, mixed with historical naval classes that seem like they could still apply. (We wanted a bit of historical authenticity)

I agree that the Frigate type hasn't been seen in Trek, but technically, we have seen very few of Starfleet's ship classes in Trek. The Federation is several hundred years old by the Nemesis era, and ships are nearly always in development by Starfleet. Surely there are many, many more ships out there that we simply have never seen? (Which is another reason why fan ships can be plausible)

There are also going to be some new classes of ship for the other races, to fill in gaps in their shiplists.

There are likely many ships that will be difficult to class, and the Prometheus is no exception. Seeing that it is a fleet in it's own right, perhaps a new type designation is the right thing to do. (So perhaps something like 'Fleet Cruiser' or 'Armada Escort' would be more fitting than 'Attack Cruiser?'

Anyway, we'll just have to come up a couple of types, and go with what seems best. I imagine similar problems will occur once we have a go with the ships of the other races as well!

Oh boy, yet another long post by me...I do try to keep them short...I guess I can't stop myself, I suppose...

Actually, we do see a Frigate in Trek several times (all in TNG, I think). In "Conspiracy" (TNG), the Enterprise meets secretly with three ships. Two of them are distincly referred to as Frigates (The Renegade and Thomas Payne) The third was the Ambassador class Horatio. Later it is established to my satisfaction (i.e. I see it in more than one book, and by no less than Michael Okuda...) that the most common Frigate in the 2340-BoBW Fleet is the New Orleans class (We actually see the wreckage of the New Orleans class Kyushu in BoBW). So I'm convinced that the class exists - go to Trekmania.net to see more information about it, and some awesome models!

By the way, this reminded me. I said earlier that we only see a few Ambassadors, ever. Let's count.... The Horatio, Enterprise C, and Zhukhov, from TNG, plus the two or three we see in BoBW and "Emissary", and maybe a few in the Dominion War and other DS9. I don't remember any from ST:FC, but I'm not entirely sure. Anyway, I would guess that there are no fewer than five seen in the series, and perhaps as many as a dozen, counting DS9. Out of a canon fleet of roughly 1500 starships, minimum, that doesn't seem to be much of a proportion, leading me to assume that either most were destroyed or decommissioned, or very few were built (it is conceivable that only a few were built, as a stopgap measure to supplement the Excelsior class during the Galaxy class's long development).

Anyway, thanks for your comments, Matress! How about something like this:

TNG (2360-2370)
-Oberth II
*Nova (late, say 2365 at the earliest)
-Miranda II
-New Orleans (being phased out)
*Steamrunner - Destroyer (replaces N.O. and Miranda)
-Excelsior II
-Ambassador
*Nebula - Heavy Cruiser
*Galaxy - Explorer

DS9, (2370-2375)
-Nova - Surveyor
-Steamrunner - Destroyer
*Defiant - Escort
-surviving Excelsiors, Ambassadors - Cruisers
*Akira - Heavy Cruiser
-Nebula - Heavy Cruiser
-Galaxy - Explorer
*Intrepid - Cruiser (2374?)

Post Dominion War (2375-present)
-Nova - surveyor
-Steamrunner - Destroyer
-Defiant - Escort
-surviving old cruisers
-Intrepid - Cruiser
-Nebula - Heavy Cruiser
-Akira - Heavy Cruiser
*Prometheus - Something-Cruiser
-Galaxy - Explorer
*Sovereign - Explorer

Do you think that would work better? If this could work, you'd have a pretty awesome (and canon) fleet at the end!
[/i]

I don't mind helping if people ask for it (Or otherwise...)

The list sounds perfect so far...but (And i'm not knocking it here) but you do realise that 'eras' won't actually be in the game, don't you?

We are using eras to help define certain levels of progress, but there won't be any icons onscreen telling you the era. There might be a counter indicating what 'stardate' it is, but that is as far as it goes.

Anyway, you should get in touch with jigaly and se what he says about the list. He may have some other ships to add in (Or possibly to take away, but I hope not)

Iwulff might be interested as well, since he has designed the techtree for the game. (And yes, it is an actual techtree, like in the Civ games, not just the energy 1 leads to energy 2 type thing that was in BOTF)

Using the techtree, you may even be able to pin the 'eras' down a bit more tightly in connection with the game. (Should you want to)

I found this list of Ambassador class ships at http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_dat ... st_dom.php Supposidally its all from cannon sources.

NCC-26849 USS Adelphi
NX-10521 USS Ambassador
NCC-1701-C USS Enterprise
NCC-26517 USS Excalibur
NCC-26531 USS Exeter
NCC-26632 USS Gandhi
NCC-10532 USS Horatio
NCC-26198 USS Valdemar
NCC-26510 USS Yamaguchi
NCC-26136 USS Zhukov

Whether or not they are all true, my personal opinion is that the Ambassador was the Federation's 'Ship of the Line' in the time between the Excellsior and the Galaxy. We see nothing of the time between when Kirk is killed on the Ent-B (roughly 2293), and the begining of TNG (2364). Thats 70 or so years where we know nothing about what happened. While there is no way to know for certain, I believe along with the Excellsiors, and the aging Constitutions, that the Ambassador class was the main ship of the Federation for this time. For a little while it must have been their best ship, otherwise, why would the ENT C be the flagship, while it lasted?

Just my opinions.

Thanks for the info, Rigel. Yeah, I forgot about most of them. Anyway, my point was we really don't see msny of them later, so I was questioning whether an upgrade would be appropriate, when you might as well (as it seems that Starfleet did) replace them with newer ships like the Nebula, Galaxy, and Akira. At the very least, they seem to not be building a new batch in the 2360's, so they seem to have finished with the design.

Matress, I understand your point about the eras.... I had just planned to use them to get my chronological bearings to keep the list canon, and it just got out of hand......

I suppose that the ships would just fit on the tech tree so you get them in roughly chronological order, and so the appearance of the fleet would be internally consistent (we don't ever see Connie refits alongside Galaxies, but that would be hella-cool, even if it means you are desparate to stem the tide of Scimitars.... )

I just expect to leave the actual tech tree-ing to the experts, but I could try to work it out if you want.

By the way, how can I ensure that Iwulff or Jigalypuff get these shiplists? I hope they would meet with their approval (but don't really expect to see the New Orleans or Saladin, although that would be AWESOME [well, almost as awesome as Multi-Vector Assault Mode]).

What about the Dominion? A lot of people have asked about it, and no one has ever responded. So my next uberlong post will hopefully get a discussion started....

From what I understand, the Dominion starts out as the whole package, (Founders, Vorta, Jem'Hadar). This makes the most sense from a gameplay perspective, so I won't ramble on about it.

The shiplist, however, could easily reflect the 'real' history of the Dominion. We think we know that the Founders travelled across space in their early history, presumably making themselves into ships. Could we have their earliest vessels be shapeshifted (or combinations of shape-shifters). They would be really fast, and hard to kill, but practically unarmed (from what very little we see, presumably they would attack by attaching to a target and tearing it apart). They would also be quite cheap (since we are really talking about talented changelings making themselves into ships).

Given their paranoia and the fact that they had to engineer each of their subordinate races, I doubt we should see Jem'Hadar or Vorta ships for some time. So their fleet would consist of a lot of those changeling-ships, and would not be powerful at all. a few advantages the Dominion could have at the beginning, though: Possibly as their 'ships' gain experience, they grow and become more powerful. Also, their ships could do pretty much anything in large enough numbers (say, 10 could terraform very slowly, or even colonize), their colonies would start out not needing food structures (Founders don't eat), and they would be very hard to conquer (is that a rock or the Founder Resistance?)

At some point, the Founders develop genetic engineering, allowing them to create the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar, and therefore conventional ships and weapons. Again, this would start slowly, with some things that show the design ancestry of the Dominion we know and love, but also more organic. Anyway, this could happen around, say, 2250 (or whatever the equivalent tech level is). From there, their development continues like any other race.

By 2350 or so, we would probably have a few of the more familiar ships. Perhaps the earliest version of the fighter could appear. We know they must have prodigious numbers of fighters before 2370, or the Romulan-Cardassian debacle could not have happened. They also would be building their heavier warships. They would reach the top of their tech tree by 2374 or so, with their battleship ("Valiant", DS9). Anyway, this is what we have for rough chronology and ship list:

"2150-2250" (or equivalent tech level, basically the opening of the game)
-changeling-ships: Can do pretty much anything. Not powerful, but difficult to destroy, will damage enemy vessels on contact, perhaps learning to mount weapons in rare cases. Several can terraform and colonize, and they learn from experience, getting more capable with time.

2250-2300
-Early conventional ships, Vorta and Jem'Hadar. Early ships would look a lot like the Founders, but less organic.
*Vorta ship - scout, diplomatic transport, science vessel
*Jem'Hadar destroyer/cruisers.
*Colony ships, transports

2300-2350
-dissappearance of changeling-ships, except for those infants sent across the Galaxy...
*Jem'Hadar ships start to resemble modern designs more than the Founders.
*at least one class of destroyer/fighter, and two classes of capital ship.

2350-present
-final evolution of technology (reach top of tech tree first, have advantage over other empires for a time)
*Jem'Hadar fighter
*Jem'Hadar battlecruiser
*Battlecruiser variant I (seen in several DS9 episodes) - medium cruiser
*Battlecruiser variant II (also in DS9) - heavy cruiser
*Jem'Hadar battleship

Not much of a shiplist, and even then a lot of conjecture! Any suggestions/rebuttals would be appreciated! I personally think this makes a great deal of sense and is relatively consistent with canon Dominion History, at least what little we know about it....
[/b]

To get in touch with Iwulff/Jigaly, send them a PM.

You could either simply send a link to your shiplists, or copy-and-paste the shiplists into your message. That would make sure they read them!

I would kill to let what you say come true about the Dominion...but we have to think in realistic terms here: This is a game. Games have limits. Game limits suck.

I imagine it would be extremely difficult to get Dominion ships to suddenly attach themselves to enemies, and then tear their hulls apart.

From an ease-of-programmability perspective, I imagine that Gavin would program the Dominion ships to be armed with standard weaponry (But make the weapons weak and few in numbers)

Mind you, I was wrong about the Multi-Vector Assault mode for the Prrometheus not being in, so you never know. (All hail Gavin, the God of programming)

...

Oh, by the way, I wasn't ranting at you about the eras, I just wanted to mention it coz it seemed like you were spending a lot of time getting the timings right, when it will likely end up being something that isn't even noticed in the game!

I wouldn't want to cause you any unneccessary work, would I? (:lol:)

ROFLMAO
hm, right.
Well, the Dominion are a tough one. An empire spaning 10,000 years (DS9, Dogs of War) and all we see is the latest 10 years at most
Looking at a Sovereign, and Galaxy and a Nebula, i don't think you would ever come up with a design like the Deadalus... And that's just 200 years.

Anyway, what I worte about the Dominion was aimed at the part about chengeling ships; by the time of the founing of the Federation, the Dominion is a 9,600 year-old empire (so at the beggining of the game). A 9,600 year-old empire would NOT use God as mean of transport

If you just thought "Who cares about continuitiy" (a viewpoint I share), the problem is, once again, going so deep into the history of a civilisation. What contraptions did humanity use 10,000 years ago? A stone and a club!
What I'm saying is; an old civilisation makes the progress of science that much harder to anticipate.

For reasons stated by CVN, I dont see these founder ships being a reality. i think by the time Zephram cochraine has launched the Phoenix, the Founders would have had the Vorta and JemHadar with them already.

And I dont know if the shapeshifting ships were mentioned in an episode I dont remember, but I just dont see it being possible. We've seen a founder killed by a hand phaser blast. I dont see them being able to survive the vacum of space, much less any type of energy weapon directed at the ship.

For an empire to be as massive as the 'present day' Dominion is. They must have been conquering for atleast a few centuries, before humanity even got itself out of the dark ages.

Not trying to blow your idea out of the water. In fact in glad someone put some time and effort into thinking about the Dominion's ships. But I wouldnt doubt that jig and Dafedez, (I'm never sure if I spell his name right) the main ship designers, have already though about, and possibly already made some of these Dominion ships.

I think it's Dafezd...

anyway; a founder WAS a spaceship once. But he was like a renagade changeling, never united with the Founders, a baby launched into space like Odo, if I remember the episode correctly.

Well, the beta will be ready soon.(:D) We'll see how it'll turn out (the Dominion, I mean)

Oh, was that the episode where the Dr. who worked with Odo was brought in to work with the baby changeling? Later in the episode the changeling is dying, and when it dies, it gives Odo his shapeshifting ability back? (If that is the epiosde, then that explains why I dont remember shapeshifter 'ships', cause I've never seen the begining of that episode.)

no

EDIT: ROFLMAO!!!
...
Sorry, you described the whole episode and I just reply "no". But, no, that is a different episode. In this one; they're just cruising around, and a ship (resembeling a fish) comes up to them. Sad story, persecution, biggotry YAdayadaYadA...

Im glad you came back with an edit.

Indeed. It would have been quite rude Well, it was rude for 30 sec-s, while I was laughing I couldn't edit it

Sorry about all of the stupidity there, I wasn't thinking that all the way through! I was just assuming that all the races would start from the beginning, but anyway, it does make more sense for the Dominion to have normal Jem'Hadar ships in the beginning...

Oh well, t'would have been cool...but a later start would make more sense. So what would the 'race' for the Dominion be? Vorta, Jem'Hadar, or Founder? I think it would be cool for the race picture to be the Vorta, since the Founders prefer anonymity. Any thoughts on those?

Firstly CVN, it's Dafedz - not Dafezd as you put!
(Hey, I have to get my revenge, I just read your PM!)

...

Anyway, Ithink the Vorta would be the 'face' of the Dominion. The Vorta are the diplomats of the Dominion, so diplomatic first contact would likely be through the Vorta. (Non-diplomatic would be Jem'Hadar)

Again, if you want to get any info about ships, PM jigaly. I forgot that Dafedz was working on the ships though. He can answer your questions just as well, Jarok. You could try PMing him instead, if you want.

Definitely Vorta, they handdle diplomacy.

It wasn't a stupid idea, anyway Jarok. But normal ships just make more sence to me

Why is it that there are new threads being opened with the newest ships in, but they aren't being posted here as well? 8O

Isn't that what this thread is supposed to be all about?

What about having a shiplist with all the new ships in as well?

So where are we, as far as ships go? I feel a bit confused by all the new stuff, as well.

Congrats, Matress, on 1K messages....woot, that's a lot. 8O

half the ship pics you have seen will not be in the game, so it`s probably good that they are not in this thread, also were`s my romulan shiplist o mistress of smeagle?

Ah, thats a great name, better than moe, but not as easy to write.

Here's the Romulan shiplist you wanted Jig, in three formats (Don't know what one you wanted).
http://notepad.niagarafalls.com/Romulan ... 0Stats.txt
http://notepad.niagarafalls.com/Romulan ... 0Stats.wks
http://notepad.niagarafalls.com/Romulan ... 0Stats.xls

Since OmniQ said he was doing them, I didn't bother, Jig

How could i have done anyway? I don't know what ships will be in myself!

Anyway MISTRESS of Smeagle? I thought I explained about my name?

Mistress is a totally different person, a friend of mine actually, but wholly unrelated to any part of my person, be it bodily or persona.

Anyway, there is only one known description of the said friend, and that is:

"Heaven doesn't want me, and hell's afraid i'll take over!"

Do you honestly think that such a kind, modest, wonderful person as moi, would warrant such a description?

I'll answer this for you, oh pink one - the answer is no!

Nassty pink one, thinking we're mistress, precious...revenge is a dish best served cold afterall precious...nassty hobbitses...Gollum! Gollum!

Just one question. Roughly how many ships will be available during each era for each race?

I tried to follow it but I got lost going through all the different lists...

The reason I am asking is because if there are not enough ships for each era, the game might get boring if you don't have enough ship types to work with when planning your stratagies.

For example, I often find myself using groups of heavy destroyers and escort for one task, while I have a group of various command ships going off to another task, scout ships going off in all directions, war cruisers going of in yet another direction, and a hoard of minor race ships going off to still another location (I just like to collect thos things for some reason), and each group is compiled specifically to deal with its own task.

For example 1 group would be moved to sit on another empires doorstep for a while, 1 group is on an intercept corse to seek out and destroy an enemy scout (usually done by my collection of minor race ships which can sometimes almost be in the 30s), while I send some of my older craft such as light cuirsers and destroyers to keep some neutral in check (gotta love those sheliak! , defiants, galaxy-x to deal with an enemy preparing to invade, heavy destroyer patrolling a border zone... and the list goes on.

Even when a ship becomes outdated, there are still some tasks that the ship is perfectly suited for. For this reason I think that you should still be able to construct the out of date ships until the something like, the ships that immediately replaced them have a replacement ship as well... Think of it as a phase out period. Besides, if you have the ability to give or sell your ships to minors or other empires that could one day declare war on you, does it make sence to give them the absolute best ships you have or 1 or 2 steps below your best?

I believe there will be some sort of 'mothballing' feature replacing the scrapping-ships-for-economic-success feature. Supposedly, you can 'decommission' an older ship and send it to a surplus depot, and get some (but not all) of your investment back. If you need ships at a later time, you can 'recommission' the ships for a modest fee, and faster than building one from scratch.

So even if you can't build new ships of obsolete classes, there may still be ways to get at them in a pinch.

Also, the ships should be useful far longer than in BotF I. Canonically, Excelsiors stay around for a long, long time, and I think that they will be around most of the game in this new edition.

I'd check TWAAO (Things We All Agree On) for info, of PM one of the designers for confirmation of my blatant rumor.

Except, you don't have the ability the last time I checked.
___
I used to be concerned about loosing good to ships to time, but in the end I realised it is best for game-play. The Federation no longer builds Orbeths, for example, yet they're everywhere. The same thing will happen in the game. If you built a lot of Orbeths, and you have no need for the more expensive Nova class replacements, you can keep the entire Orbeth fleet, you just can't renew it

I see your point there... However, it still would be kinda nice to build an older moddel ship if it becomes one of your favorites...

Here is an idea!!! There could be an option in the option screen (duh) that would allow you to have a cumulative ship selection screen instead of the era ship selection screen!

I am sure that a lot of people would enjoy this when it comes to solving any arguments about which ship is better or how many of one ship it would take to destroy another ship.

Can you imagine pitting a hoard of Archers type ship against one of Kirks ships and then pitting those ships against one of Picards type ships and pitting those against one of.... ect. ect...